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I don’t think anyone will be able to answer this question accurately but here goes.
Grouse season just opened up in my area (60) and I hunt with a 500fps (non PAL) .22 Weihrauch air rifle. I don't have a PAL nor do I want one. Over my 33 years hunting deer and bear with a crossbow, I've been stopped 3 times by CO'S without a problem.
So, how does a CO know if my air rifle is a non PAL air gun? And, no, not every air rifle is stamped nor mandated to be stamped as a sub 500fps I believe.
The easy answer is simply by looking it up on the manufacturers website and reading the specs.
It should have a name and a model number.
Print the specs and carry them with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
Good answer!Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerald
<br>Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondroid
If you are hoping to use the pellet gun on grouse while archery hunting deer or bear, the regulation forbid you from doing so. The out put of the firearm is determined by the manufactures specs. If you check the regulations they have change the rules for firearms that maybe carried during the open gun season of big game, if you don’t have the appropriate big game license. You are now limited to rim-fire firearms, at one point they would allow firearms which had a muzzle energy under 400 ft-lbs. I’ve argued you can reload just about any center-fire firearm ammunition below that spec. The head CO informed me they don’t go by what I might be able to do with a reload, but rather what the manufacturer’s determines is the firearm’s capability. As far as needing a PAL there are two items to take into account, both have to be satisfied one is the muzzle velocity the other is muzzle energy. Hope this is helpful.
You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut
X2. Cuts to the chase and saves a lot of aggravation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerald
Lot of good answers, the only problem is the manufacturer makes the exact same model in a NON PAL and PAL rated version. I have a Weihrauch HW97K in .22 500 fps. The company from BC has gone out of business (SSSO). I had or misplaced the receipt which stated the serial # and the fact its a non PAL air rifle. We have some of the stupidest gun laws in the world to be honest. The whole 'airgun' thing is a total grey area in the law. I see it as it's up to the CO to determine if he 'believes' the pellet gun to be above 500 fps then I'm in a heap of *&^%, which isn't fair. My crossbows are a different story....no one makes a 500+ fps crossbow, so it's a moot point. I'm probably in the very small percentage who hunt small game with an air rifle.
I love Grouse hunting with my air rifle. Got two Grouse last week. No more ringing ears and at my age I need all of my hearing. Maybe a CO could chime in on the issue.
There’s something off with your the first part of your reply (use of pellet gun during a big game archery season). According to Ontario Regulation 665:Quote:
Originally Posted by Gun Nut
70. A person who hunts deer, elk or moose shall not use or carry a firearm unless the firearm is of a class specified for use during the open season applicable to the species, person and area in Ontario.
77. (1) A person hunting small game, when in an area during an open season in the area for a species of big game, shall not possess or use,
(a) —>a centre-fire rifle; or
(b)—> shells loaded with ball or shot larger than number two shot.
I can’t find anything that prohibits the use of a pellet gun during a big game archery season. What am I missing? Thx.
You can't find it because it's not there. I carried a Crossman .22 CO2 "38" revolver in a shoulder holster under my parka for popping Grouse while sitting on Moose and Deer watches,all 100% legal as long as the pellet pistol is below the 500fps threshold. We also need to be aware that Coyote and Wolf hunters hunting during big game seasons are no longer restricted from using C/F rifles without being in possession of big game licenses. The new regs can be found on pg 85 of The Summary. This is really great news for dedicated varmint/predator hunters who hunt year round.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Menard
yes part 77 (1) has been removed. There are some misprints in the new regulations, so keep that in mind..Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
Why can’t you use a pellet gun that is faster 500 FPS when grouse hunting during deer season? Can you point me to the reg? Thanks,Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
Subsection 77(1) still exists but contains the following clause:Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowwalker
(1.1) Subsection (1) does not apply to:
(b) a person who has a valid licence to hunt wolf or coyote and is hunting wolf or coyote under the authority of that licence.
Page 26, of the regs summary. You can’t use a restricted or prohibited firearm to hunt. Over 500 FPS (152.4mps) makes a pellet pistol either restricted or prohibited.(barrel length). It then becomes regulated by the CC and Firearms Act, in terms of Licencing, registration, carrying etc.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Menard
This applies to those WMU's that require a separate Wolf/Coyote license and tag. The rest of Ontario has a year-round open season. The firearms used during the open season for big game must match the regs ie: shotguns in shotgun only WMU's,however,slugs and heavy shot may be carried and used without the possession of a big game license PLUS blaze orange must be properly worn during big game gun hunts for Deer and Moose and by "licensed" Black Bear hunters except when in a tree stand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Menard
Is it just me,or does anyone else see where the regulation change could increase risk to safety?
I don’t see any increased risk. Nothing has changed really, except yote and wolf hunters don’t require a big game licence. I suppose if anything, it may increase hunter numbers, but that’s about it...IMHO.. hopefully it results in a reduction of wolf/yote numbers..Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
Thanks for the clarification, somehow I was thinking pellet rifles, which should be ok regardless of muzzle velocity.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
A air Rifle over 500Fps is a non-restricted firearm and you must have a PAL to use one to begin with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Menard
Let's not lump everything together. Different firearms and Different licenses and Different can do and cannot do.
before i went ahead and got my gun licence i had this question as well as i would hunt squirrels with my .22 grizzly. answer i got by email of mnr was as long as its not over 500 im okay with H2 and have valid licence to hunt. if a big game season is happening, wear orange but if stopped by a CO there is no way in hell you could argue that you are hunting bear or deer with your .22 pellet rifle.
those little rifles are so handy to take anything from partridge, to squirrel to close range rabbits and my chickens when they are on their way out. heck, ive even shot a skunk at close range and it was lights out.
You can also hunt small game with a pellet / BB pistol. Grouse would be fine to light for a rabbit.
I shoot rabbits all the time with pellet pistols, just have to be close, ha ha, my domestic rabbits are much larger than any snowshoe hare out there. I was planning on a pump 22 cal air pistol, some of them run up close to the max, 460fps, lots of energy for rabbits when I have used a .177 air pistol on them with less than 450fps of muzzle velocity.Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwhite
Have you ever tested the pellet revolver and any of the pellet pistols through a chronograph? Curious what the speeds would be.
I use to use my pellet revolver to shoot rabbits when I was a teenager, but they are bare minimum, most time I used it to put down what ever I caught in my snares..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Since we're on this topic, I wonder if someone might try and clarify this statement in the regs;
If you are in possession of a gun for the
purpose of hunting in Ontario, you are
required to carry proof of your firearms
accreditation under the Firearms Act
(Canada) - this includes apprentice hunters
(12-14 year old residents) who cannot yet
obtain a firearms licence. Every gun hunter
must carry one of the following: a valid
possession and acquisition licence, a valid
minor’s licence, or a stamped copy of a
Canadian Firearms Safety Course (CFSC)
student report as official documentation
showing successful completion of the CFSC
(for apprentice hunters who have not yet
obtained their minor’s licence). For nonresidents, this could also include a valid
non-resident firearms declaration form
confirmed by a Canadian customs officer,
or a valid temporary firearms borrowing
licence for non-residents issued under the
Firearms Act (Canada).
Does this statement apply to pellet guns under 500fps? I know that these are not considered to be 'firearms' but, they are in fact 'guns', are they not? Just trying to wrap my head around these new changes to the licensing system.
I have dropped jacks and larger skunks with my .177( 4.5mm) air rifle. I am using 10.6 grain pellets, going around 900 to 1000 Fps and do head shots..Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwhite
So the right setup can do it.
Under 500fps,this does not apply because it's not classified as firearm under the Criminal Code or the Firearms Act. However,if hunting with a pellet pistol,a hunting license is still required,therefore,all the provisions of the FWCA still apply.Quote:
Originally Posted by NaturalPath
Yep, I get that, a hunting license is required for any method of hunting, including longbows, crossbows or even slingshots. My issue is with the use of the words 'firearms' and 'guns'. Why not just use firearms, which is a more legal and accepted term, rather than introducing a more vague term like guns? There are lots of guns that do not require a PAL to obtain or, apparently, to hunt with. I don't know why they're confusing the issue by using the term guns.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
Well they are "both" correct if used correctly "Firearm" is the Vague term, where as "Gun" defines a specific type of firearm.Quote:
Originally Posted by NaturalPath
For example:
A BB gun fires steel BBs and does not have a rifled barrel . That makes it a gun whether it looks like a rifle or a Pistol.
An Air Rifle or Air Pistol both have rifled barrels, and fire Pellets or slugs.
As far as the 490 FPS limit goes. I have never seen or heard of a BB "gun" that exceeds 490 Fps. But Air Rifles and Air Pistol are on both sides of the limit. Many models can have a 490 or less version and a version that is over 490.
Do you have a version of a model that is not over 490? Do you want it to be over 490? Simple. You can just switch your 490 or less spring for the over 490 spring.
The reason is, a “firearm” definition includes crossbows etc, under the FWCA. They use “gun” to differentiate between bows and “firearms” as defined by the CC and Firearms Act.Quote:
Originally Posted by NaturalPath
That's interesting Rick, I didn't know that. Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by rick_iles
Not yet, this one was a CO2 one and when you started to run empty it was not ideal that is for sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwhite
Crosman lists the new version of my pellet pistol at 435fps, with a .177 pellet. I want to get a .22 at 460fps or just below 500fps ideally for use on close in small game.
My son has the Crossman Vigilante I think it's 435 ft per second
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Would you like to define what you would think is close range. I know it is all dependent on your setup, but some real world numbers would help with comparison.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
I am using a Gamo Big Cat ( Rated 1250 Fps with alloy pellets) that runs about 1000 to 1050 Fps with 7.6 grain or 900 to 1000 Fps with 10.6 grain pellets.
I am sighted in at 10 meters( 33 feet) because that is a good range in the barns.
Point blank :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowwalker
I know for a fact though that you do not need a 1250fps airgun to kill small game. I had a <500fps airgun that I used to shoot as a kid, it was my uncles, popped a groundhog in the head at 5 yards, dead as a doorknob, a pistol would have been the same.
You can kill a rabbit with a slingshot so why not a pellet gun.
You just pointed out the secret to it. You pick your airgun on the range you need to shoot from.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
You shoot at the range your airgun works.
You can kill a coyote with a 40 grain bullet from a 22 rim fire just as easy as you can with a 40 grain bullet from a .223. The difference is the range you can do it from.
My .22 pellet rifle is my tool of choice for grouse. Like my farts... silent but deadly.:cool:
Redefines the phrase " Dead down wind".Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Menard
More importantly, check your local Discharge By-Laws as many cities and municipalities have included Sling Shot, Pellet and BB, Spring assisted guns, bows and arrows (kids versions), to discharge stats.
Ottawa has amended to include the following: Which makes it criminal code offence for BB/Pellet guns
farmer” means a person whose occupation is farming on land that he or she is entitled to occupy, and,
a.who has livestock or poultry on the land;
b.who is tilling or cultivating the land for crops; or
c.who is engaging in arboriculture or horticulture for commercial purposes;
“firearm” means any class or type of gun or other firearm including a shotgun, rifle, airgun, spring-gun, longbow or crossbow;
“highway” means a common and public highway, street, avenue, parkway, driveway, square, place, bridge, viaduct, or trestle, any part of which is intended for, or used by, the general public for the passage of vehicles and includes the area between the lateral property lines thereof;
Is that not always the case? You are not going to use a 410 for a 60 yard shot on a grouse or a 22LR for a 300 yard shot on a deer, it has always been about matching the gun to the task. When you are carrying a pellet pistol for small game you know you are going to be limited, or at least you should. This is why I want a .22 air pistol at 460fps, the restriction is velocity and not energy so using the .22 cal airgun gives me a lot more punch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowwalker
That being said, the 495fps air rifle in .177 at 5 yards to kill a groundhog means that a 495for air pistol in .177 would give you the same killing range, just less accurate as it is harder to hold a pistol on target when pulling the trigger. The same exact bullet at the exact same velocity will give you the exact same results down range, if they hit the target.
I did pickup a .22 air rifle with a 950fps velocity, even a nitro spring is quite loud but I am really interested in what it does to small game.
And what CC offence would that be ??Quote:
Originally Posted by line052
Fox...
Two shooters with .177 using 10.6 grain pellets at about 900 to 1000 Fps .
Did this is about 20 to 25 minutes..
Shot three full grocery bags of birds..
Your rifle should do just as good.
Pictures will not load...
I'll edit them in later..
It's not a Criminal Code offense. At the most,it's a Summary offense and only under the municipal bylaw.Quote:
Originally Posted by line052
High power air guns are awesome, and very cheap to shoot. I was just surprised by how loud the nitro pistol is, but I had only shot a high speed airgun once before. This rifle is a 7lb rifle too, I put a 3-9x40 Bushnell I had kicking around on it, I called Bushnell and verified that this model, a Trophy XLT would be safe with the recoil of this airgun, these high powered once destroy scopes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowwalker
It is not a high end one by any means, a Crosman, but was on sale for $99, down from $300, so really not a loss even if all I do is use it for messing around on the farm.
If you get it dialed in good and but out a metal bird feeder, you can make a good dent in the starling population...Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
You'll have to pick up the exploded starlings if you don't have cats...
My plan is rats and pigeons around here, but I know that this one will punch through a tin roof so need to bait the pigeons on to the ground.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowwalker
Fox I have the .22 Nitro Venom from Crosman with a Nitrogen gas piston instead of a spring and it's been great. It takes a while to get the barrel leaded up but since then it's been quite stable in accuracy. It's not quiet but it's not real loud by any stretch compared to a spring loaded air rifle. I'm sure you'll have fun with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Not loud like a 22 but louder than a 22 CB, or comparable. I guess shooting the old 495fps spring gun beside it makes me think it should be quieter, ha ha.Quote:
Originally Posted by smitty55
It's the double recoil that shakes the scopes apart.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
well for real ratting fun, you can get a true red light ( not one with a red filter) as well you can see it the rats can't. It just looks black to them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
A good backstop in the barn is a must. Wood or steel beams works great. Tin, plastic and most roofing materials don't stop even then 7.6 grain pellets.
Do not use the alloy pellets. They can damage the piston ram and the seals behind the chamber. They are too light and do not provide enough back pressure to slow the ram properly.
If your going to shoot pigeons on the ground you may need a few decoys.
Teal hens and dove decoys work. Pigeons love motion so a few dove or teal hen mojo style decoys will pull them right in..
Don't shoot any doves...
The rat issue is not in a barn, I have a series of coops and shelters for animals, most are off the ground, the rats are always on the ground, they just avoid all traps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowwalker
A night shoot will let you pile them up like cord wood..just don't stack them like greatwhite stacks wood.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Get a true red light so you can see because the rats can not see red light.
Smear peanut butter high on a stake. Just use at least a one by one stake because they will chew it.
You could also invest in some A24 CO2 powered rat traps. Look them up...they are very effective.
The flying rats don't get into the barn?
If you use a red light can you see the rats thru a scope still?Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowwalker
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yes your can, but how well you see depends on how many Lumen your light is. Just like a regular light the more lumen( say 300 lumen vs 800 lumen ) your light has the better you can see.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashes1
Here is the science behind the light colors..
https://outriggeroutdoors.com/blogs/...-night-hunting
Green may work but I know rats are totally red color blind..
Thanks, I’m gonna check out those lightsQuote:
Originally Posted by Snowwalker
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Here an example how it works...Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashes1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gidMHD20WiY
Ok yes I seen something like that but the guy had a small camera and screen mounted to his air rifle so I thought I would need that type of setup to shoot at night. I didn’t think I would be able to see crosshairs still with only a ir lightQuote:
Originally Posted by Snowwalker
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
You don't use an IR emitter unless you are using Night vision gear. If you have a good quality red or green light you will be able to see you cross hairs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashes1
The film crew is using Night Vision cameras and an IR Emitter, but the guy is only using a red light. The only thing he sees is what the red light shows.
Ok I thought I heard him call it a ir light.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowwalker
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
He does say at one point that the red light was bright enough for he to see when he is reloading, because he can't see the IR lights the crew is using.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashes1
Sitting in my blind other night wow a lot of coyotes not to far off
Anyways tonight thinking about lazyboy bag of chips
Oh yeah are thermal scopes legal in Ontario
YES as are Night vision, but the only thing you can "hunt" are Raccoons. Pest control and protection of live stock are not hunting.Quote:
Originally Posted by js4fn