Given your area has a choice, would you prefer to use a shotgun or a muzzleloader? Very rarely would range be an issue for me, for the most part I would be shooting under 100 yards. Also not driving or pushing, I would be ground or stand hunting.
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Given your area has a choice, would you prefer to use a shotgun or a muzzleloader? Very rarely would range be an issue for me, for the most part I would be shooting under 100 yards. Also not driving or pushing, I would be ground or stand hunting.
I got bit with the Black Powder shooting years back and the infection has only getting worse. I take one out during the regulatory Rifle season now and I use an ML shotgun for Turkey hunting. :)
Great fun and adds a nice dimension to the sport of hunting. Even the cheap ones will shot MOA at 100 out of the box so clover leaf accuracy is easy to obtain if you spend a little time with loose powder and work up a load. Otherwise a lot of guys just use the pellets, it sacrifices a little in accuracy for convenience, but if you're primarily shooting sub 100 yds, you'll find it will still do the job nicely.
Only reason i go for shogun is convenience and quickness of loading and unloading, to remain legal.
What are these Pellets?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
Pyrodex pellets I shoot 2 in my muzzle loader 50/50. 50 caliber and 50 grain pushing a .223 grain .50 call bulletQuote:
Originally Posted by greatwhite
I think its just personal preference really, but gbk makes a good point about the simplicity of the shotgun...hard to go wrong with a Savage 20 gauge slug gun :)
Don’t limit yourself. Both are great. I have a good collection of muzzleloaders that need more field time but for a wet day or for hunting the swamps it’s hard to beat a shotgun
I hunted a controlled hunt that was shotgun or muzzleloader last year. I did not even bring the modern muzzleloader with a scope and 209 primers, I left both the shotgun and inline gun at home and took a side lock without only a patched round ball. I would have shot a larger deer a day earlier if I had the shotgun (had a hang fire) but got a deer with a mid 1800s style rifle, which is much cooler than another deer shot with the 870.
I hunt 92B ML guns only. :(
I never understood the logic behind this but what can you do?. So I don't have a choice! lol
If I could use a shotgun I would in a heart beat. It would be a Savage 220 slug gun!
In NS talking to my cousin. They have a separate Bow / Muzzle Loader season Oct 1 - Oct 31 with a separate tag. Gun season which runs Oct 30 - Dec 1 and then back to bow and Muzzle Loader till the end of Dec.
A muzzle Loader here would extend my season 1 week but no extra tags.
Yea that part sucks for sure..would be nice to have an ML tag. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwhite
I keep thinking about it. I have something for almost everyone of my needs except a small center fire for varmints (They banned the ranch rifle) and a Muzzle Loader.
But with the money I putout this year to set my son up right for his first year I will have to wait until after Xmas and see if my contract is renewed first. It would still be useful and add an extra week of hunting if I didn't fill my tag the first 2 weeks.
I party hunt with my brother and dad so the shotgun makes more sense if more than one deer comes out to one of us. But I’ve been on the fence with muzzleloaders for a bit. It’s something different instead of the same old. Maybe even slightly more rewarding.
Rapid shooting is why, a few deer come out at once and you can easily get shots at multiple with a shotgun, not so with a muzzle loader, unless you spring for a very pricey double.Quote:
Originally Posted by bellerivercrossbowhunter
Talk about rewarding, it was awesome hunting the traditional way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdbuff
The key part to this is that I told my dad what I wanted to do and he was 100% for it, it was just the 2 of us hunting and filling the freezer was not the goal, hunting how we wanted was the goal and it worked out perfectly.
In my area for the December hunt you cannot use a shotgun only a muzzleloader or bow.Cannot figure out why we do not get a choice,a shotgun would be the better of the two.
What Fox said above. December deer are herded up more so MNR is only letting us use muzzleloaders so guys that are out filling meat tags arent slaughting the whole herd with the slug gun lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
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That sounds like it'd be a pretty exciting hunt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
I would prefer a shotgun just because it's easier to maintain and a lot less hassle overall.
I started off with shotgun but over the last 5 years or so went to a ML... Just something a little more interesting in the hunt this way, plus who doesn't like to see smoke :)
My area is muzzle loader only don’t have a choice but it’s fun more challenging for sure
Your not far from me if your looking for used muzzle loader I have very nice pursuit G4 scoped I would part with
I have two
Missed the doe with a hang fire Tuesday, Pyrodex and a wet December day, next time I will load new every morning.Quote:
Originally Posted by LiveBates
Wednesday we did some poking, I moved up ahead and my dad poked the bush. We know the runs they are likely to go down, sure enough a big doe with 2 big fawns came in. I hit a tree with a shot at the doe, thought it was all over, reloaded and the one fawn decided to get past me at around 15 yards. 50 cal round ball to the heart and she took off, made it about 50 yards, you could eat to the hole.
Fox where are you hunting right now?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
I think he’s referencing the excitement of a previous hunt.
I have heard great things about savage. The only thing issue is that I've also heard that they shoot best with accutips which I keep hearing guys not being able to find recently.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kokes
Definitely they do, but you can try Win Dual Bond or Federal blue box plain Jane lead sabot,they will do the job for you out til 100 yards.Savage says there is another -high end Federal sabot(unsure the model)shoots good in 220 .Quote:
Originally Posted by klums
You will do well with savage 220 if that is your dream,do not let shortage of ammo scare You off.
After all,if You hit consitently a pie plate at 100 yards-you are good to go hunting.And shooting out til 100 y.In Ontario-that is mostly plenty.
No need to cover 3 shots with a dime at 100 y to be able to hunt a deer ethically and efficiently.
Now-owning Accutip definitely can be a morale booster-but not a show stopper.
Shotgun. It's a more versatile firearm than a muzzleloader.
So is a Dodge Family wagon but I'd still rather drive a Mustang GT. HaHa..Quote:
Originally Posted by Badenoch
I hunt around my place just south of Ottawa and at my Dads place near Stratford, his place has a controlled hunt the first week of December, that is where I got the deer last year, 2 years ago it was at the camp 15min from my house.Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwhite
True, you could do everything with a shotgun but what is the gun in that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Badenoch
I would much rather have 50 guns that I got to look at, clean and polish that had their own tasks than to just go out and buy an 870 and be done with it.
I like the minivan analogy but I will take it one further. I want a pickup for utility, motorcycle for agility, car for commuting, jacked up 4x4 for fun and Olds 442 for classic speed, never a van, never ever a van.
I bought the 220 a couple of weeks ago. Instead of accutips which I used in my BPS 12 gauge for years, I tried 3 inch federal premium trophy copper tipped sabot slug in the 220 with great success. The Savage manual recommends 3 inch accutips. I'll stick with the feds. at $20.00 a box. Next year I'll try 2-3/4 inch. If they are as accurate as the 3 inch, even better at $15.00 a box. At that price, I won't mind banging off a few boxes at a shooting session.Quote:
Originally Posted by klums
I bring both out actually. a ML for the first shot and if any malfunction happens i have a couple slugs as backup.
and before keyboard wardens start going off-- yes, i got the green light from the mnr. i was as surprised as you.
its a real pain if you are moving but if you just sit and wait like I do its nice to have. rarely do you ever need the backup as the ML is often a far better choice when you are not on the move. and like others said, its just too cool when the cloud clears and you see your deer go down through it.
You could always bring 2 guns, you just have to make sure you are in control of them and use them safely. You cannot have 2 guns if you are taking out an apprentice though.Quote:
Originally Posted by punkrockerpj
A guy I hunted with in SW Ontario has a 220, he has stuck with the 2 3/4" accutips, he gets 1/4in better groups over the 3". I am not joking, the guy was so particular with his slug gun, yet he uses it for 200 yards plus on deer.Quote:
Originally Posted by trailblzr
ive been amazed with how accurate some of these rifled scopes are! i friend took a doe out at about 150 and it was about as far as i would trust my shooting of my ML-- although ive heard of some guys also taking deer out just under 300 with their MLs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
all around impressed with how they can perform!
My approach is fewer but better guns.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
No doubt. As I said before i used 2 3/4in. Accutips in my BPS for years. The 3 inch Federals shoot great out of my 220 so I’ll try 2 3/4 federals at $15.00 a box compared to $26.00 a box for accutips.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Federal Trophy Barnes tipped expander on sale at Gagnons for 12.99 work really well! Old stock but fantastic.
Thanks Big Jack. I used those with my REM 870 a while ago. Great price.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Jack
1940s M38 Mauser in 6.5x55mm, 0.86in 5 shot group at 100 yards, I don't think I need to go better and it did not cost so much that I have to buy fewer :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Badenoch
Not even a minute chance that I'd ever use a shotgun again. I did the slug thing with the fancy cantilever hastings barrel and the ever changing slug technology. A $299 Thompson Omega outshoots every slug gun I have ever tried, and that's what I've used for the past 20 years. . Cheaper to shoot as well. You simply wait until you have a good ethical broadside shot and you pull the trigger. Dead deer every time. Will put three shots into the but end of a coffee cup at 100yds. No need for a shotgun.
I wouldn't say no need for a shotgun. I have never shot a muzzle loader but I do read about them and as you said they are a tack driver but so are the new shotgun sabots.
Plus the shotgun has the capability of follow up shots. I hunt with a shotgun and have had good success with it.
I had a muzzleloader, sold it, brand new, never even sighted in. I agree the bp gun typically can be more accurate but not by that much to make a difference for me. So with the ease in cleaning and not having to reload, especially when your hands are froze and full of arthritis trying to stick a primer on I'll take a shotgun. Not to mention I'd be ticked if I pulled the trigger and the primer was wet and it cost me a deer. Happened to a couple buddies, would never happen practicing, only when hunting.
Let me know when you shoot a target like this at 300 yards with a shotgun lol!Quote:
Originally Posted by cantgetright
That was my buddy’s target from our range visit last Sunday.
Yes ML are more accurate and frankly easy to use.
Attachment 40965
Thats what I said, bp guns are more accurate. But neither would be ideal for shooting deer at 300 yards
Just giving you a hard time.Quote:
Originally Posted by cantgetright
But all kidding aside, the two smokeless ml in my cabinet would allow me to take a moose or deer or Tyrannosaurus rex (depending on the load) at 300 yards. I would be very careful and would want the perfect shot but it would be no issue at all.
The only slug gun that even comes close to a modern in line BP ml is the savage 220 BUT that in-line has more jam out of the muzzle and with a good bc bullet, will have more energy at 200 yards than the slugger. The problem going further with with an regular in line ml IMO is the sabot. Can’t get the spin on bullet through sabot. Go sabotless and all that goes away. The 220 slugger is out of gas energy wise past 200.
So here is the other part, $22 for 5 shots for good shotgun ammo. $4.40 a pop.
In contrast, I have a simple LBT .458 mold that gives me 340 grain pill for about 10 cents and a 20 cent sabot plus a few cents of powder will shoot MOA to 200 at 2000 fps.
If I used BH209 it would be $1.54 worth of powder....
Yes you only get one shot but that also is the beauty of it to me.
Until you go out and use a muzzleloader you cannot really compare. You think that you only get one shot, but you can reload a muzzleloader pretty quick, the little doe I got last year was shot with the 2nd shot as I smacked a tree with the first. Yes the deer went into cover and came out a minute or so later but it is not like you have 1 shot for the evening, you can reload and if you have the stuff setup for it you can do that rather quickly.Quote:
Originally Posted by huntnmachine
You can compare the same thing with rifles and bows, if you are in NW Ontario and the rifle season is so long you could argue that there is no point to owning a bow, but the challenge that follows the bow makes it very inviting for many. The fact that modern muzzleloaders can be more accurate than the average shotgun simply brings it down to hitting where you are aiming with the first shot vs shooting as it is running away with 2 more shots.
I will not be getting rid of the rifled barrel shotgun but I will be using the muzzleloaders more.
If you want a quick follow up shot with a muzzleloader then bring 2 guns.. lol
I did that for few years. Getting older dealing with two BP slows you down. Finding that second gun in smoke filled blind is priceless :)Quote:
Originally Posted by bellerivercrossbowhunter
In my many years I have reloaded and shot my ML twice while in my treestand. Both successful. Not a big deal as long as you have a well prepared 'possibiles' bag HaHa...Quote:
Originally Posted by bellerivercrossbowhunter
for the NON-MLers:Quote:
In the days of the mountain man, a "possibles bag" was carried in which they carried everything that could possibly be needed for the day: black powder, powder measurer, flint and steel, lead balls and patch,
Pedersoli Kodiak Express MK VI Double-Barrel Percussion RiflesQuote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
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Write a review
$1,299.99
Expensive but second shot ? LOL
yeah i sighted in my ML this afternoon and man, its nice having the accuracy.
but what happened with my ML reminded me of why i bring my shotgun as backup as I rarely push the bush and sit as I have more success with deer that way.
my first shot was a bullseye. second shot, up 3 inches and to the left 2, third shot after cleaning the barrel was maybe half an inch off the bullseye. I dont shoot with a rest and really should when sighting in. I use my kids camping chair to stabilize my barrel :P
so why did my 2nd shot go so high and left? 1 part of the reason was the dirty barrel.
the other part of the reason was the 3 second hangfire, with me lifting my head to say "what the heck?", and then the gun slamming into my shoulder and almost making me a pirate.
that moment reminded me that there's upsides and downsides to every tool we use i suppose.
The second shot could likely be from the heat in the barrel. Sabots are very heat sensitive. Also you can't expect to drive tacks either. The hang fire could be due to solvents left in the bore or breech plug after cleaning or due to a loose fitting sabot. Easy to load equals inconsistency be it using smokeless or bp or bp substitute. Being a smokeless shooter for many years I have learned the in and outs and my buddies with smoke poles have benefited in consistency and accuracy from proper fitting sabots.Quote:
Originally Posted by punkrockerpj
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3 out of 4 in our black-powder group now shoot the Savage 10ML ii smokeless muzzleloaders.
The one guy that shoots my old trusty T/C Omega with T7 will soon be buying a Savage for next season after he sees how our guns perform... lol
No smell, no smoke, boring :)Quote:
Originally Posted by bellerivercrossbowhunter
No smell, no smoke, boring but lot's of venison at the end of the day... lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Best part is trying to track your deer through the smoke. While spitting on screen trying to put out the slow melt. LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by Fox
About ready to sell my Savage 220 and buy a Benelli M2 20gauge with rifled barrel. Same barrel length and twist rate but such a nicer gun. 1800$ before tax though hurts, But I really like it and being semi I heard they are like shooting a BB gun in terms of recoil.
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Song Dog
My friend bought one of these.
You may be disappointed with accuracy. He was versus the 220.
You get venison either way...same bullets ...I'll stick to the enjoying the smoke..otherwise it's just another gun..Haha..Quote:
Originally Posted by bellerivercrossbowhunter
That's the way I look at it. They both go bang. I like them both. I'll take the slug gun out for a morning or a full day and take the savage ml2 out the next day. I like my toys.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
hey i like venison... :P
I'm going to try my friends first before I commit, He's shooting federal sabots, 1900fps Barnes expander, I'll put it up against my 220 and report back. Likely won't be til after deer season since both guns are dialed in already for next week [emoji3]Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Jack
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I went from a 12ga pump to a 20ga semi last year. I'm not recoil sensitive but after 3 or 4 boxes the 12ga could leave a nice bruise but can shoot the 20ga all day. It was really fussy finding a sabot to shoot well but now that I have I get more consistent groups, no fliers with the 20ga. Interested to hear how the semi stacks up against the savage bolt, I'm liking the looks of the redesigned 220.Quote:
Originally Posted by SongDog
I bought the 220 less than a month ago. Shoots very accurately. The Accustock with accufit is really nice. Comes with adjustable length of pull and comb height. I didn't have to make any adjustments. Fits just right.Quote:
Originally Posted by cantgetright
How is the 220 at chambering the 2nd round in? There were issues with early models. Also can you get the scope nice and low to the barrel? The new rail on top looks fairly long and that it might be a problem mounting a scope with a 40mm objective or a short tube.Quote:
Originally Posted by trailblzr
Its chambering the second round smoothly. New gun. I have only done it a few times. Seem to be okay.Quote:
Originally Posted by cantgetright
Ya the rail is long. I mounted my 1.75 x 4 -32 bushnell trophy on it. Had to use medium rings.
Just enough room to get the scope cap on without touching the rail. I'll probably change the rail down the road.
If I want venison I can shoot them with a modern rifle, or use a crossbow. Muzzle loaders and traditional bows are for the challenge.Quote:
Originally Posted by bellerivercrossbowhunter
Screen? Sitting on a stump with a breeze, did not lose the deer last year, and actually saw the hole and the blood pumping out a step or two after I took the shot, no concern there.Quote:
Originally Posted by js4fn
Yeah but your a young buck I’m old puzzy
I'll take the muzzleloader, seeing as I shot a doe on the opener yesterday with it. I considered the shotgun, but I like the ' you have one shot' mentality needed with a muzzleloader.
Sorry but it is really really hard to beat the savage 220. That shotgun is more accurate than most rifles and you do not have to clean it like a ML. We can argue all day about this but these are the facts...
Not necessarily the reason to take something out to hunt.Quote:
Originally Posted by pbonura
I like the 220’s. I’ve lost count of how many I’ve owned. You will notice different poi as you shoot factory rounds.Quote:
Originally Posted by pbonura
With an ml you control each load. Find the right load and every time you shoot you will have same result.
Yes the cleaning is a pain so go smokeless and that goes away.
BH209 also works well.
Both guns are great. It’s just preference really.
Both give great confidence in the woods.
Going smokeless essentially means a custom rifle now, due to all the idiots loading BP volumes of smokeless and blowing up their rifles :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Jack
Has anyone even suggested making a mass produced smokeless muzzle loader again?
There isn’t enough demand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Savages last run was only 6000 ML rifles. That line was converted and pumps out 80,000 center fire rifles per year.
It isn’t financially viable for any mass manufacturer.
Custom smokeless prefit barrels have never been easier to purchase.
Just need a donor action and any half competent gunny can head space the breach plug.
For a total of about $2000 you have a great rig that will outperform any slugger ever made accuracy wise.
It really is just deciding which you prefer.
Why is Traditions now looking to make smokeless guns? It is because stupid people blew themselves and their guns up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Jack
They make single shot rifles that fit the G3 muzzle loader, it is the same receiver, so why can they not make a smokeless gun? The demand may not be there for Savage but Traditions has partnered with Federal and Hodgdon to make a powder cartridge to load, that sure was not a cheap initiative.
Well I put my shotgun away the last 3yrs and used my custom smokeless muzzle loader I was lucky enough to harvest a small 8 pointer at 75 yrds this year both would have done the job the shotgun and the muzzle loader but I perfere my muzzle loader
They do work well!Quote:
Originally Posted by overtheir
Smaller production out of that company and proprietary load set up spells expensive but who really knows?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
The reality is I can shoot a gas checked 5 cent cast bullet with a paltry 28 grains of powder that pushes 1900 FPS. Oh don’t forget the 4 cent primer!
I don’t know Fox, I hope they do make one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwhite
At least they have the brains to establish the season in a more climate friendly period of the year. I had a couple of loose percussion caps which I wanted use to dry the oil in the powder chambers of my shotgun, I near froze my fingers attempting to get them on to the nipples. I'd love to see and early October Muzzle Loader season for deer.
Another thing that would be great is making it a Black Powder season rather than just a Muzzle Loader season. There were a number of great old caliber rifles that proceeded the 30 WCF, that were great black powder firearms that could be retrieved from being wall hangers and put back into service of bagging game This might even expand the interest in the hunt, as well as broadening the market place in selling black powder ammunition or selling equipment to load black powder cartridges, plus gun cleaning accessories, need after use.
You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut
There are a few states that have true 'Traditional Black Powder Muzzle Loader' hunts...Oregon has some of the most restrictive:Quote:
Originally Posted by Gun Nut
(600 series refers to Antelope)
Quote:
OREGON MUZZLELOADER HUNTING SEASON
Updated 1/5/2020 - During the Oregon Muzzleloader Hunting Season, a muzzleloader rifle must be a minimum of .40 caliber to be legal for hunting. Scopes (permanent and detachable), and sights that use batteries, artificial light or energy are not allowed during muzzleloader-only seasons and 600 series hunts where there is a weapon restriction of shotgun/muzzleloader only or archery/muzzleloader only, except for visually impaired hunters who have a visual acuity of 20/200 with lenses or visual field of 20 degrees. Open and peep sights made from alloys, plastic, or other materials that do not have the properties described above are legal sights. Fiber optics and fluorescent paint incorporated into or on open or iron sights are legal.
During muzzleloader-only seasons and 600 series hunts where there is a weapon restriction of shotgun/muzzleloader only or archery/muzzleloader only, it is illegal to hunt with jacketed bullets, sabots, and bullets with plastic or synthetic tips or bases. Only the following projectile/bullet types are allowed: a) Round balls made of lead, lead alloy, or federally-approved nontoxic shot material, used with cloth, paper or felt patches; (b) Conical bullets made of lead, lead alloy, or federally-approved nontoxic shot material, with a length that does not exceed twice the diameter; (c) Lead free copper conical bullets with a length that does not exceed twice the diameter.
It is illegal to hunt with pelletized powders or propellants during muzzleloader-only seasons and 600 series hunts where there is a weapon restriction of shotgun/muzzleloader only or archery/muzzleloader only. Granular (loose) black powder and black powder substitutes are the only legal propellants during muzzleloader-only seasons and 600 series hunts where there is a weapon restriction of shotgun/muzzleloader only or archery/muzzleloader only.
Muzzleloading firearms with revolving actions are prohibited during muzzleloader-only seasons and 600 series hunts where there is a weapon restriction of shotgun/muzzleloader only or archery/muzzleloader only.
For muzzleloader-only seasons and 600 series hunts where there is a weapon restriction of shotgun/muzzleloader only or archery/muzzleloader only, the muzzleloader must have an open ignition.
The following table is a brief summary of the majority of different licenses and permits that are available. Detailed information can be found by looking at the regulations for the specific species that you are interested in.
state by state rules:
http://https://www.muzzle-loaders.co...ions-by-state/