Hunting with a champion

[Ugo]

Well, it's been awhile and I'm guessing many will hope it's a while before I post again!
Mr. Ecker is a long time cover dog trialer with an admirable past in cover dog trials. He has his own way of doing things which are not how I would do things however that's neither here-nor-there. I've had my own success in trials, including cover trials where-by we hunted grouse or woodcock - not pen-raised/planted birds.
It is my observation (and I could be wrong) that FFF's setter is an American setter, not European. *European setters do in fact still "set" but not quite like FFFs.
Trials are a medium that supports the sporting aspect of working dogs. Without them, I believe the breeds would erode over time. They provide a stringent expectation while ensuring the canine entrants are not only trained well but reflect their inherent traits AND must be both mentally and physically strong. Without them, we'd have a WIDE series of performances from the "same breed" because most everyone today has migrated away from what the basic performance standard of a pointing dog "should" be. The dogs are quite capable of performing at top level. Their owners are not invested and so the resulting performance erodes exponentially over time. For example a well-bred pointing dog has all the tools in his/her box. If the owner keeps reaching for the hammer for every application, it doesn't really tell what else is in the box. ALL of the dogs I contribute towards leave here completely steady (like the one you saw Mr. Ecker training). They handle WITHOUT a whistle or hacking because it's the dog's responsibility to watch where I'm going - not the other way around. I hunt wild birds, not dogs. As such, my opportunities for success improve exponentially because of the silent approach and the synergy/faith the dog and I have in each other to git 'er done whether it's early season grouse/woodcock or Huns/sharpies on the prairies! The higher level of success rewards both the dog and I. My dogs retrieve, so unlike the one you saw in the first vid, I send my dog(s) to find and bring back my birds. Even in my trialing days, my dogs retrieved when hunted. They knew the difference between a trial and hunting. MY expectations were the same unlike some that allow their dogs to break when hunting which in fact can contribute to ambiguity for the dog. As I stated, a proper steady dog is WELL within the wheel-house of your well-bred pointing dog regardless of breed. The challenge remains with the dog's owner/trainer.
So, I'm hunting quail in KS. My setter locks up. I walk in and quail - unlike Huns for example - flush like "popcorn". They also go in a variety of directions! I settle in, pick my bird, shoot. I then send my dog for the downed quail. Let's replay this with the unsteady dog. The dog points solid. The owner steps in and the first quail launches. The dog rips past him and runs right through the main body of the covey and it's ABSOLUTE MAYHEM!! Birds everywhere, dog wheeling and spinning, shots going off but watch out for the dog!!! You might drop a bird but.....can't find it in the flurry! NOT good! Finally, it has been my experience that waterfowling dogs are the strongest retrievers. NOT because they are born better at retrieving but because of the method of success. Really good waterfowl dogs mark incredibly well and can then be sent for multiple dead birds in that variety of settings - water, reeds, fields, etc. What makes them especially successful? It's their high aptitude for MARKING. Your pointing dog might not have that acute ability to mark but he still has one. It is virtually NULIFIED by the unsteady dog. Imagine the disastrous result coming from a Lab launching out of a blind as ducks drop into the blocks or at the initial sight/sound of a gun!?!?!? Good luck finding those downed ducks!
As for running birds - and to Sharon's point - if "I'm judging" and a dog self-relocates, I admire that, rather than fault the dog HOWEVER, a bird CANNOT be bumped in the process! A steady, savvy dog will learn to self-relocate successfully. Another steady dog might need your support and be sent on to relocate the runner but again, in neither case can the dog bump the runner. As I said, it's not hard for the dog....
Finally, when you sift through these details, with a properly trained dog, you end up with a better dog, have more fun, are provided with more quality opportunities to shoot birds with the added bonus of better table fare!

[finsfurfeathers]

As for running birds - and to Sharon's point - if "I'm judging" and a dog self-relocates, I admire that, rather than fault the dog HOWEVER, a bird CANNOT be bumped in the process! A steady, savvy dog will learn to self-relocate successfully. Another steady dog might need your support and be sent on to relocate the runner but again, in neither case can the dog bump the runner. As I said, it's not hard for the dog....
Finally, when you sift through these details, with a properly trained dog, you end up with a better dog, have more fun, are provided with more quality opportunities to shoot birds with the added bonus of better table fare!

Good post and an explanation for the rationale which I understand the need for. Guess I'm just more recreational hunter the competitive one. As for lineage can't say either way as Stella and her son are products of a hunter with decent dogs propagating the line.
Don't know if anyone would score her as a well trained dog but Stella works well enough for me. I like this clip showing what I believe is a bit of intuitive dog work to keep the bird in play. You'll see where she relocates when she figures I'm having trouble finding the bird, than later relocates to get in front of the running bird. Can I say I taught her that no. Did she play the game long enough to put it together yup.

[Sharon]

" and to Sharon's point - if "I'm judging" and a dog self-relocates, I admire that, rather than fault the dog HOWEVER, a bird CANNOT be bumped in the process! A steady, savvy dog will learn to self-relocate successfully. Another steady dog might need your support and be sent on to relocate the runner but again, in neither case can the dog bump the runner. As I said, it's not hard for the dog..." Ugo

Got it. Thanks for the explanation.(Welcome back )

[Bo D]

Ugo, great post and well laid out ( cause and effect ). Throughly enjoyed reading through it.