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Thread: What is considered a humane kill shot ?

  1. #61
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    In the aftermath of last season we toyed with some different ideas. As soon as we get some time this winter (since we have some time since deer and moose season is closed) we are going to mix up a batch of ballistic gelatin. I have a bunch of 165 gr and 180 gr SST loads for my 30-06 that I want to test.
    If nothing else it will be fun. What I hope to find out is where the optimum point is for bullet expansion. Since I dont' expect to shoot beyond 200 yds I don't need the bullet to go too fast. I expect I will find out that I can load less powder, slow the bullet down and still have good performance. (Currently I am getting pretty close to 2900 fps with 165 gr bullets).
    Too bad we can't use ballistic gel at the shooting range (not allowed - I asked). So we will have to do a field experiment. Interestingly enough you can make ballistic gel quite easily - Google it. Apparently it can get real stinky.

    We will do it at friend's house since he doesn't have a wife..
    There is room for all God's creatures - right next to the mashed potatoes!

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  3. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    3.5in entry wound? Holy crap, did you clip a tree first? In reality the entry hole "should" be the size of the bullet, unless for some reason there is a mushroom ahead of time. I have seen deer after they were hit by a bullet that clipped a tree first, nasty stuff.
    Usually you would be correct but when the bullet hit the ribs (Slight angle) the expansion was total and probably fragmented to some degree. The exit wound likely was the result of the rest of the bullet that did not fragment punching through.

    These are pure lead bullets without jackets but have a ballistic tip so expansion is considerable.

    Should also mention that this loading was designed for use to 200 yards so it was reasonably hot, maybe too hot for short range.

  4. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by DGearyFTE View Post
    To support Werner's statement, I have a dead chronograph to show for my efforts in trying to get a bullet to go faster. I loaded (not above safe maximum IAW Hornady Reload Manual 9th Edition) a 180 gr SST 30-06. The bullet came apart after leaving the barrel and destroyed my chronograph. I don't need Hornady to tell me the story since I still have the evidence.
    With that, I called them to inquire about the 125 gr SST since they are new and therefore the 9th Edition does not provide load data for them.
    Hornady Tech advised using the data for 130 Gr and working up to a good load from there. He was very emphatic about the speed in stating that it was not designed to go above 3400 fps.
    Point being, laws of physics dictate here - higher speed is higher expansion. It is exactly the same for anti-armor rounds and large caliber ships guns. But that is a whole different discussion thread.
    Suffice to say that a bullet going too fast will in fact blow up on the hide simply due to penetration associated with surface tension. Much the same why people die from falling into the water from great heights. The human body simply ruptures on the surface since the water at that speed is like concrete...
    I have had this happen with some small cal loadings as well. You push them too hard or shoot high velocity frangibles in rain or even high humidity days, you can sometimes see this occur. Could also be weakness in the particular bullet itself....

    I know the vmax bullets will darn near disintegrate on a piece of grass!

  5. #64
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    Yup, the V-Max are made that way. Right now I am coyote hunting and I am not using V-Max though I have a bunch of them. Interestingly enough I have opted for the cheap Remington bulk Spire Points. I tested them at 200 yds and they shoot accurately enough.
    I want the coyote hide so the last thing I need is a frangible bullet (50 Gr V-Max) blowing up the side of an otherwise nice pelt. I will save the V-Max for other critters.

    On the topic of it being just one bad bullet, I suspect that it may have been the loading die leaving a circular dent in the top of the bullet. I have since bought an A-Max seating stem for my 30-06 dies. No dent now.
    There is room for all God's creatures - right next to the mashed potatoes!

  6. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Jack View Post
    Usually you would be correct but when the bullet hit the ribs (Slight angle) the expansion was total and probably fragmented to some degree. The exit wound likely was the result of the rest of the bullet that did not fragment punching through.

    These are pure lead bullets without jackets but have a ballistic tip so expansion is considerable.

    Should also mention that this loading was designed for use to 200 yards so it was reasonably hot, maybe too hot for short range.
    So it expanded on the rib, so the entrance hole was still the size of the bullet but the expansion was almost instant and violent. I have shot groundhogs with the .222 Rem and they almost seem to blow up, fast expanding bullet expanded when impacting the skin.

    If the bullet expanded that quickly on the entrance rib then ya it was probably too hot for that distance. Still thinking about that hole, messy stuff.

    The biggest entrance hole I put into a deer was a 12ga full bore slug, not very fast and not a lot of expansion but a .729" hole in and out does the job, there is also a lot less meat damage than the .270 Win at close range, BTW venison ribs are delicious if not blood shot .

  7. #66
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    I like to watch hunting videos as much as the next person on tv and you-tube. But maybe what really happens on the hunt should stay on the hunt. I hunt deer with bow and we push with dogs on the rifle hunt and it is great if they fall to the ground when you pull the trigger but in reality most times not.

  8. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by hunter391 View Post
    I like to watch hunting videos as much as the next person on tv and you-tube. But maybe what really happens on the hunt should stay on the hunt. I hunt deer with bow and we push with dogs on the rifle hunt and it is great if they fall to the ground when you pull the trigger but in reality most times not.
    At least you can make use of the dogs for tracking, they can do wonders. Even well hit deer can be tough to track in November, dogs are just awesome.

  9. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by werner.reiche View Post
    "Maybe a bullet is designed to "expand" optimally @ 2200-1500 fps which might correlate from 150 to 300 yds."

    That's actually how most bullets do expand. However at the velocities below the lower end they do not expand, and at velocity of above the upper end, they over expand (or explode as it it's commonly called). It would take a real bit of engineering to design a bullet that would not expand at excessive velocities, but still expand properly at its normal velocities - but first they'd have to invent the physics to support that.
    From what I've seen, Nosler partitions have the largest range of velocities (from fast to slow) where they open up and function properly. Not the mythical any velocity bullet you describe in your last sentence but probably the closest thing I have ever used. They still fail at "too slow" velocities (insufficient expansion) but do not seem to explode at the higher velocities like the SST are prone to. They also seem to do better on bone.
    Last edited by Species8472; February 10th, 2014 at 04:25 PM.
    They say a man turns old when sorrow and regret take the place of hope and dreams

  10. #69
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    Interesting thread.
    All I know is on Deer size game, in most case, higher velocity = higher shock = more blood shot meat (regardless the bullet type used).
    All things being equal, shooting in the lung area on a relaxed Deer with slower or faster bullets they usually drop within 100 feet (I know there are exceptions). The only difference is with the higher velocity you lose 12" of blood shot meat around the bullet hole and slower velocity you can eat right up to bullet hole. Just my observations and why I love hunting Deer with my 6.5 x 55 and save my 7 mm Rem Mag for Moose.

  11. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    So it expanded on the rib, so the entrance hole was still the size of the bullet but the expansion was almost instant and violent. I have shot groundhogs with the .222 Rem and they almost seem to blow up, fast expanding bullet expanded when impacting the skin.

    If the bullet expanded that quickly on the entrance rib then ya it was probably too hot for that distance. Still thinking about that hole, messy stuff.

    The biggest entrance hole I put into a deer was a 12ga full bore slug, not very fast and not a lot of expansion but a .729" hole in and out does the job, there is also a lot less meat damage than the .270 Win at close range, BTW venison ribs are delicious if not blood shot .
    Well no there was a hole in the side of the deer 3.5 inches wide. Looked like hide was blasted out.

    Tremendous damage.

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