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Thread: a serious talk about steelhead.

  1. #11
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    Guys relax, steelhead are largely understood worlrdwide as anadromous fish.
    in ontario, our rainbows are not anadromous.
    get over it.
    Any rainbow caught in the great lakes should NOT be called a steellhead. because it isn't
    FURTHERMORE ANY RAINBOW OR ASIAN CARP is an invasive species...
    neither belongs in southern ontario

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  3. #12
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    You must be bored. Who cares steelhead or Rainbow, Potato or Patato LOL There rainbow trout end of story.
    "Give a man a fish and he eats for a day, Teach a man to fish and he eats for the rest of his life"

  4. #13
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    To me Steelhead means migratory rainbow trout. Meaning that they live in big bodies of water and enter a river system to spawn. Maybe the here fish would enter salt water if it was accessible to them. Rainbow trout, Steelhead or whatever all came from the west coast where they were "sea run". Not having access to salt water doesn't make them any different. And about the Pickerel thing, Pickerel are a member of the Esox (pike) genus. And walleye are a member of the Sander (perch) genus.

  5. #14
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    MR/MRS rippin355,
    Everything you said is on point. and i respect you 100%.
    To be a jerk, All Rainbow trout, spawn up stream. they all go up a river. Worldwide Steelhead are understood as saltwater fish spawning in freshwater... OOD magazine has decided that a niche market in southern ontario calling them "steelhead" justifies their naming....
    I agree that Pickerel is not the appropriate term for walleye in northern ontario, nor is steelhead for southern ontario rainbow trout.

  6. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by welsh View Post
    Again, and without being polite this time: BS. You don't know what you're talking about.

    This is not "a worldwide understanding." Every American fly-fishing magazine refers to migratory Great Lakes rainbows as steelhead. Any number of American websites do the same. This usage is not in any way restricted to southern Ontario.

    Some examples, since obviously you won't take my word for it.
    The Steelhead Site, based in Illinois and focusing on Great Lakes fishing:
    https://steelheadsite.com/
    University of Michigan site with lesson plan on Great Lakes steelhead:
    http://www.miseagrant.umich.edu/less...for-steelhead/
    Michigan DNR page on steelhead:
    http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7...5692--,00.html
    John Nagy, American steelhead guide:
    http://www.johnnagysteelheadguide.com/
    Rio lines article on Great Lakes steelhead:
    http://www.rioproducts.com/blog/wint...ete-humphreys/

    I'd suggest you take two and a half minutes to check into this. "Steelhead" for migratory rainbows is not southern Ontario slang. It's common usage throughout the Great Lakes region.

    Whether or not the fish genuinely are "steelhead" is irrelevant, especially given that there is no genetic difference between an anadromous steelhead and a resident rainbow trout. You have said that only in southern Ontario are migratory rainbows called "steelhead." I have just proven you are full of it.

    Is there anything left to say here?
    Mr/Mrs
    i 100% respect and am thank you for your response.
    i started a thread here that sounds like "LETS FIGHT" i swear i'd rather hang out and have a beer.

    moving onto the topic. i understand you can fine websites that scream STEELHEAD. if you want to fight the battle that way, i can too.
    i can start with far more credible organizations than you.
    i don't mean to. but you brought it up.
    http://www.nwf.org/wildlife/wildlife...steelhead.aspx
    http://wdfw.wa.gov/fishing/salmon/steelhead.html


    My point was simple, although Hate has been widespread.... If provincial and national records ONLY RECOGNIZE rainbow trout, why does our magazine call them Steelhead.
    that's my bottom line. answer that question, instead of screaming semantics.

  7. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by flytyermiller View Post
    moving onto the topic. i understand you can fine websites that scream STEELHEAD. if you want to fight the battle that way, i can too.
    i can start with far more credible organizations than you.
    Really? So the University of Michigan and the Michigan DNR, they're not credible? And a couple of websites pitched at a lay audience that happen to use the term "anadromous," that trumps all?

    You're moving the goalposts. I did a quick Google on "Great Lakes steelhead," and cited what popped up in the first page or two as examples of how widespread the usage is. I was never trying to establish if steelhead must by definition be anadromous, in the first place because that wasn't the point I was addressing (it was your false claim that the usage is regional), and in the second place because the question is silly.

    Here's why: the funny thing about common names is, whatever people happen to call something is, by definition, its common name. Every fly fishing magazine in North America calls the Great Lakes fish "steelhead," as do management agencies and anglers throughout the Great Lakes region. Ergo, that's their common name.

    Quote Originally Posted by flytyermiller View Post
    My point was simple, although Hate has been widespread.... If provincial and national records ONLY RECOGNIZE rainbow trout, why does our magazine call them Steelhead.
    that's my bottom line. answer that question, instead of screaming semantics.
    Wait a minute. You want to start a thread about whether the common name of a fish is correct, and then complain that I'm dealing in semantics? You do realize what that word means, right?

    If provincial records recognize only "rainbow trout," then that's because rainbow trout and steelhead are the same species: Oncorhynchus mykiss. Nothing could stop me from catching a lake run fish and then submitting it as a provincial record resident rainbow, because nobody can tell the difference on the basis of genetics. The difference is purely behavioural. So the record books recognize one fish.

    The magazine calls them steelhead because that's the accepted usage throughout North America. That's the answer. And since I've already pointed out that this is the accepted usage, I'm not sure why you're asking me to point it out again.

    You asserted that this usage is restricted to southern Ontario, that this is a purely regional usage. I demonstrated that it is not. Now you're trying to move the goalposts, and to pretend that it's somehow wrong for the magazine to use a common name that's in widespread use, because it can only be legitimately applied to anadromous fish -- which is nonsense, for the reasons explained above.

    Trolling is one method of catching steelhead. Just by the way.....
    "The language of dogs and birds teaches you your own language."
    -- Jim Harrison (1937 - 2016)

  8. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by flytyermiller View Post
    Worldwide Steelhead are understood as saltwater fish spawning in freshwater...
    No. That is incorrect, as I have already demonstrated. The Great Lakes fish is called a "steelhead" in both Canada and the US.

    Quote Originally Posted by flytyermiller View Post
    OOD magazine has decided that a niche market in southern ontario calling them "steelhead" justifies their naming....
    OOD is following the popular usage, which is also in use by Outdoor Canada, Field & Stream, Outdoor Life, Fly Fisherman, American Angler, and so on and so forth. It's not a niche market in southern Ontario; it's common usage throughout North America. And for you to continue to pretend otherwise after I have demonstrated this to be the case is flat-out dishonest.
    "The language of dogs and birds teaches you your own language."
    -- Jim Harrison (1937 - 2016)

  9. #18
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    Thanks Welsh, you know what a magazine should do? whatever they're told.... that's the same as being right....?
    congrats....

  10. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by welsh View Post
    No. That is incorrect, as I have already demonstrated. The Great Lakes fish is called a "steelhead" in both Canada and the US.



    OOD is following the popular usage, which is also in use by Outdoor Canada, Field & Stream, Outdoor Life, Fly Fisherman, American Angler, and so on and so forth. It's not a niche market in southern Ontario; it's common usage throughout North America. And for you to continue to pretend otherwise after I have demonstrated this to be the case is flat-out dishonest.
    MY apologies... i didn't realize that american usage legitamized the fact. here are two Major and Reputable organizations that do not agree with you.

    http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/pr/species/...ead-trout.html
    http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/wld/documen...lheadtrout.pdf

    Given that NO GOVERNMENT BODY adopts the name steelhead, can we not agree that the word does not belong?

  11. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by flytyermiller View Post
    Thanks Welsh, you know what a magazine should do? whatever they're told....
    Told by whom? A magazine should follow established usage.

    Quote Originally Posted by flytyermiller View Post
    MY apologies... i didn't realize that american usage legitamized the fact.
    You started out saying this usage was restricted to southern Ontario, and that everywhere else in the world used "rainbow trout." Now you're saying that what people call them everywhere else in the world isn't relevant? Those goalposts just keep right on moving....

    Quote Originally Posted by flytyermiller View Post
    here are two Major and Reputable organizations that do not agree with you.
    Actually, neither disagree with me. They both address the steelhead/rainbow in its native range only, and don't discuss Great Lakes fish at all.

    Can you find a fisheries scientist who says that steelhead transplanted to the Great Lakes cease to be steelhead? This is the proposition you need to prove here. Digging out links where someone on the West Coast says "steelhead are anadromous" in the context of the West Coast fishery establishes nothing. You need to find a fisheries biologist who is saying that the Great Lakes fish is not a steelhead, on taxonomic grounds.

    You won't find one. I have on my bookshelf Scott and Crossman and also McCrimmon's summary of the stocking history of the Great Lakes. Care to hazard a guess as to what kind of fish have been used for most stocking in the Great Lakes? That's right: anadromous steelhead, transplanted to Ontario and stocked in a landlocked environment.

    In taxonomic terms, the current consensus is that "steelhead" is a largely meaningless word. It does not describe a fish; it describes a life history strategy.
    "The language of dogs and birds teaches you your own language."
    -- Jim Harrison (1937 - 2016)

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