How to buy labour peace in Ontario

[fratri]

Jben, you are coming across mean..... some of your comments are not very nice.

[JBen]

Sometimes Fatri it serves a point, call it "shock value", trying to get people to see the reality of what things are doing to real people. Especially the typical person. By definition the mean duo income family.

In my family I have EAs and I know Teachers as well, so yup I know what life is actually like for them to. And I'll say it, I feel "sorry for them". There is so much unwarranted vitriol being directed at them, but its not hard at all to understand why (and some maybe is warranted).

One reason, why when needed, I do the opposite and point out its the Unions not teachers, not Nurses, not COs, not...
And this Admin.

Oh and btw, anyone paying attention to Healthcare these days.
Wait times
things being delisted
800,000 people without GPs
More

Millions in kick backs for Teachers Unions...

But Healthcare?
***

Anyone who isn't "furious" about this latest, I will have arguments for them. There is no possible justification for it and really is just par for the coarse with them. And the reality is, and if needed I wil shock people back to "reality" and what reality is like for the typical person, it's these same Unions who spend millions...yes millions campaigning for them, advertising and more and have had a large role getting them re-elected, time and again. Just as they did in this last federal election.

[JBen]

Decided maybe a little more perspective.

I mentioned I have EAs in family. Four of them.

Anyone know what their average salary is? Its a lot less than the average Teachers Salary.
How long they have been without a contract?
How long without raises?
How what happens to them every time Teachers.....
Will they get a raise this year?
Next?

So lets review.
Healthcare is hemorrhaging, something we pay a lot of taxes for.
EAs are taking it on the chin. I believe they earn less than the "average Joe Blow".

No money for them either.

But Teachers Unions, they get millions.
*****

I don't care if some don't like some of the things, actual, factual things I point out. Don't really care if some feel differently (too each their own). There are reasons why so many out therehave a hate on for teachers (when really as I've said for years its the Unions and many have "argued" in their defense), these days it seems more than they do wall street bankers...funny that.

For years now, people have been pointing things out. And there has always been something else come along every few months. How long since the last "thing"...how long has been since the last thing before that?

As Ive said hundreds of times. Maybe, just maybe if there wasn't so much corruption, so many scandals, so much ineptitude X or Y. That thing some complain about ( people complaining about this admin and the state of Ontario)...wouldnt be as bad?

And silly comments like some of us are delusional, or Expensive cars on Bay street, or.....vs say trying to "justify" or I don't know, explain why its ok?

News flash G.
While there are those who make tons of money on Bay street. Most don't, most are regular people. Getting hammered. Without Job security ( any idea how many have lost jobs the last 8 years?)...By all means, the next time some Bay Street suit bilks the public.

Have at him or her.
You won't see me making excuses, or defending them or somehow trying to justify it.

See the difference?

[Dythbringer]

Sometimes Fatri it serves a point, call it "shock value", trying to get people to see the reality of what things are doing to real people. Especially the typical person. By definition the mean duo income family.

In my family I have EAs and I know Teachers as well, so yup I know what life is actually like for them to. And I'll say it, I feel "sorry for them". There is so much unwarranted vitriol being directed at them, but its not hard at all to understand why (and some maybe is warranted).

One reason, why when needed, I do the opposite and point out its the Unions not teachers, not Nurses, not COs, not...
And this Admin.

Oh and btw, anyone paying attention to Healthcare these days.
Wait times
things being delisted
800,000 people without GPs
More

Millions in kick backs for Teachers Unions...

But Healthcare?
***

Anyone who isn't "furious" about this latest, I will have arguments for them. There is no possible justification for it and really is just par for the coarse with them. And the reality is, and if needed I wil shock people back to "reality" and what reality is like for the typical person, it's these same Unions who spend millions...yes millions campaigning for them, advertising and more and have had a large role getting them re-elected, time and again. Just as they did in this last federal election.

JBen,

I don't agree with everything you said. The majority of it, sure is bang on. However, I can't agree with your statement about this all falling on the unions and the admin. Who votes for the unions? It is the teachers. Even if there is a silent majority of teachers who think the unions go too far, they remain silent. They took the raises and benefits while perhaps muttering the union was going too far. But they still took them. They were the ones who voted for the leadership of the union which now has become so brazen about asking for the government to give them a million dollars.

Who votes for the admin? It is the public. So we have to all take personal responsibility for this mess. The public has never held this government accountable for laying down in bed with the union and spreading our collective legs (and we didn't even get dinner bought for us; we had to buy the dinner). This government elected by us is giving it up like prom date. Why is everyone so surprised this is happening from a Premier who has never, never had to work in the private sector and has been working with teachers and their unions for most of her career? Santa Wynne might talk a good game but at the end of the day actions speak louder than words.

The government is making the excuse that the one million dollar "gift" (and it turns out it is a lot more than one million dollars) was because the bargaining process was held up on their end because of problems with the provinces new bargaining process. I have to ask the question why did the "bargaining process" have to change, what changes are in the new process compared to the old one and (most importantly) if this process cost us a million dollars for peace who is the sacrificial lamb who is going to be offered up as the person responsible for this new process which "caused the talks to drag out for so long" (which in itself is questionable because Sandals was to be meeting all summer long with the unions, was her phone, email, twitter account, and snail mail not working where she couldn't get in contact with the union to talk to them).

What is worse is this is a "gift" from the province so would it be taxable? Will this "gift" find its way, by donations, to the Liberal Party? Who decided this "gift" was an acceptable amount? Where was the negotiations taking place which rendered a one million dollar compensation necessary? Let's stop calling it compensation and call it was it is a bribe.

We are simply scratching the surface of this settlement. We haven't talked about the other things which we should be concerned about with this deal (such as the fact the union is going to take over administrating the teacher's benefit with help from a fund which has $5 million dollars donated to it by the government and $12 million given to it by the school boards).

So much for "net-zero".....

Dyth

[JBen]

Just a few thoughts Dyth.

~ Yes, we (the electorate) are responsible to. Thats one reason why I find the typical comments along the lines of ...."accept it and move on" very (not sure right word). Unacceptable.

~ yes Teachers vote for their Union brass and accept things. However, how many people do you personally know do actually stand up and say "this is wrong"....or "this is too much" or...We should take hair cuts....or...We really are over compensated (some teachers anyways, not all)...In any walk of life, private or public. Very very few. Cant blame them, or at least I won't. Just as I don't blame employees in "wall street" when their CEOs...bilk the public, or screw up and cause damage. I do know quite a few teachers, and do have EAs in my family.

Wonder how many Teachers think about what they and their Unions are doing to the EAs?

As for the rest. For years some of us have been "griping" about the Unions. Griping about this Admin, cronyism, corruption and more. I am beyond done with it. Especially when you see what its doing to

People who aren't so fortunate.

Proof is in the pudding.

There are reasons for everything in life.
Reason why for example 800,000 people are without GPs
Reasons why much of the public spews vitriol towards teachers..Why really, they are hated more than wall street bankers.
Reasons why JT promised to give Teachers a small tax credit (funny that)
Reasons why.....

If teachers resent why so much of the public disrespects them and the profession. Perhaps instead of blaming the public they might want to figure out why

If people are tired of all these threads...perhaps they might want to figure out why they occur in the first place.

I didn't feel it would really be necessary to bring up the other aspects (Union taking over admin, more money etc, etc). Frankly I was beyond surprised anyone had any problems with things being said in the thread, or would argue any of it at all.

If someone truly feels this and more is justifiable, or if we are delusional (see what happens when someone trolls threads) despite being "right" 9 times out of 10... or if theres some aspect we just aren't seeing.

By all means, raise those points instead of...... Most people I think are reasonable.

[DanO]

While EA's should be treated more fairly you can't compare the pay of a teacher to that of an EA. Teachers have 5 years of university and the costs associated with that education. EA's are college grads with a one or two year course. At the end of the day the teacher answers for what did or didn't happen in the classroom.

Teachers have it good that's not up for debate (in my mind) but that isn't the real problem. The real problem is the non-unionized portion of the workforce in Canada hasn't kept up with wage and benefit increases over the years. So we should correct the problem by cutting teacher's, OPP and Hydro workers wages until they match the non-unionized workers?


Why not try to improve the wages for the non-unionized so they don't resent workers that are paid well. The CEOs and owner of the companies will tell you that they could never pay the employees the kind of money required to make working more equitable. Ask the head of the company how many times he/she has had a raise while the workers get cut in wages.

Mike Harris and John Snobleden started this teacher bashing. The poorly paid workers have just bought into the bashing.

[Oddmott]

No Dano, no.... Raising everyone's wage to unjustifiable, unsustainable levels, just because teachers enjoy pushing for their own compensation to hit ridiculous heights, and don't want to be disliked for it, is not a sensible suggestion.

But your statement is a perfect example of how delusional most teachers are about how the real world operates.

We've already lost roughly 60% of all manufacturing in Ontario over the last 30 yrs.
The hospitality industry has grown in the number of jobs provided, but will NEVER be able to afford to pay high wages - unless we want to give up on having tourism or entertainment altogether.
We now rely almost entirely on the Services industry to push our provincial economy - which is like building on quicksand and expecting things to end well - and it also has essentially hit the ceiling of what it can pay in wages.

It's all well & good to claim that private CEOs make so much that they could take a cut and raise workers wages... But that's a joke. The number of CEOs in that stratosphere number in the tens. The vast majority of CEOs have incorporated small businesses and employ less than 50 people, and pay themselves a wage not much larger than the workers under them.

In the last 20 years private sector compensation has grown by 4% on average, while Public sector compensation has grown by VERY close to 20%. There's no justification for the PS growth, its just a result of greed & political pandering and threats.

[DanO]

No Dano, no.... Raising everyone's wage to unjustifiable, unsustainable levels, just because teachers enjoy pushing for their own compensation to hit ridiculous heights, and don't want to be disliked for it, is not a sensible suggestion.

But your statement is a perfect example of how delusional most teachers are about how the real world operates.

We've already lost roughly 60% of all manufacturing in Ontario over the last 30 yrs.
The hospitality industry has grown in the number of jobs provided, but will NEVER be able to afford to pay high wages - unless we want to give up on having tourism or entertainment altogether.
We now rely almost entirely on the Services industry to push our provincial economy - which is like building on quicksand and expecting things to end well - and it also has essentially hit the ceiling of what it can pay in wages.

It's all well & good to claim that private CEOs make so much that they could take a cut and raise workers wages... But that's a joke. The number of CEOs in that stratosphere number in the tens. The vast majority of CEOs have incorporated small businesses and employ less than 50 people, and pay themselves a wage not much larger than the workers under them.

In the last 20 years private sector compensation has grown by 4% on average, while Public sector compensation has grown by VERY close to 20%. There's no justification for the PS growth, its just a result of greed & political pandering and threats.

I see you're buying the Corporate line.

We could get those jobs back tomorrow if we cut Canadian wages in half (ie. race to the bottom) which would be fine if the cost of goods and services dropped by half. Yeah right!

If you're going to compete with the world you're going to need to make the same as a world employee or less! Free trade at work my friends. Why did we go down this road? Why can't we make most goods in Canada and tariff the crap out of imports to protect our industries? It used to work until Mulroney decided to allow corporations to run the world not governments.

PS has just been receiving the wage increases that SHOULD have happened across all sectors. The fact that you're underpayed means we should all be underpayed?

[DanO]

BTW some people are doing VERY well in today's world judging by the new cars and cottages being built. AND they're not teachers or public employees. Could they be the people bashing the public service as they sit on their good wages (which aren't publicized on the Sunshine List ..... great way to turn people against each other).

[jaycee]

BTW some people are doing VERY well in today's world judging by the new cars and cottages being built. AND they're not teachers or public employees. Could they be the people bashing the public service as they sit on their good wages (which aren't publicized on the Sunshine List ..... great way to turn people against each other).

Some people in fact many are doing exceptionally well , all you have to do is drive around out in the countryside and see the monstrous houses being built , and see the vehicles that are sitting in the driveways.
To add to this when you find out who the owners are and what they do , guess what in many of these cases , at least on of the owners per household is a teacher, very strange.