Any Libertarian Party Members Here?

[line052]

Was wondering if any fellow party members are here?

[DGearyFTE]

I would vote Libertarian if the party had a national platform.

[Waftrudnir]

I do agree with some of their statements (https://www.libertarian.ca/platform) and I can understand the angle they take on some others (not that I necessarily fully agree with it or see how it could be implemented).
However, I do not only disagree with their platform #10 - I think it also shows a complete lack of realism on a very important topic for Canada!

[COLOR=#0F174D]More specifically, the Libertarian Party of Canada would:

• Significantly decrease the bureaucratic burden for refugees and asylum seekers
• Eliminate the point system for immigration and replace it with a background check for violent or fraudulent criminal activity

I'm not going to support a party/ideology that is going to import the type of people that we need least in this country (by the way, background checks are part of the point system). Immigrants who meet the criteria of the point system; e.g. federal skilled workers, typically are an actual benefit (and if they unexpectedly shouldn't find a job right away, they don't cause any problems either). problems and high costs always have been associated with refugees and family sponsored immigrants.
so why on earth would one open up free immigration (i.e. masses of mostly low skilled immigrants from 3rd world countries) and toss a well proven objective system over board that has been working well for Canadians and qualifying immigrants?

PS: not picking on anyone for being involved in any party or voting for any party, but I do read all the platforms and there's always something I don't like (no matter what party it is)

[line052]

I found the party about a year ago and did my research on party platform. Most if not all I can agree with. The key principle for me is freedom and self rights. In both Federal and Ontario provincial election we will be fielding candidates in all ridings. One of the key principles of switching to this party is individual rights, property rights and the right to choice my own path, free of government interference. It took me a while to sign on and I had a lot of reservations, but when you dig down into how they will change the way government will be run it makes sense. Libertarian's believe in less government and less control over your life. Government is a guide to provide common law, not the authority. A flat tax system. Open up private health care for those that chose to buy it. (Very contentious subject), allow private industry in, do you think the rich wait in line, no they leave the country. Maintain the public health system which requires a thorough rework to eliminate middlemen and give directly to hospitals. In Ontario this will free up billions of health care dollars which can be used to hire front line workers. Allow property rights of ownership, something you do not have right now, repel the firearms act, but retain the training and qualifying requirements, I.E. no criminal record. Self defense, defense of property will be law and a right. Reduce government regulations for businesses and change the law to go after owners and members of a corporate entity for liability. Something you cannot do now, this will hold businesses to account for actions of a company. Libertarians believe in any force against you is wrong, such as property rights and what can or cannot build or do to your property, building codes ect, ect. If you chose to live in a mud dung house, heated by corn oil lamps, then so be it. Justice, eliminate all victimless crimes, such marijuana personal use and growing. Selling pounds of pot would still be illegal, but grow and smoke your own..no problem. What to start a vegetable stand, dairy farm, beef cattle, go ahead your product will sell itself if done right. No need for meat/dairy/poultry/pork/grains marketing boards. Simple freedoms and liberty is premise of libertarianism, less government control and influence in your life.

Waftrudnir to answer your question specifically - Libertarians believe in immigration and it is needed for Canada. Come one come all. Feel free to practice any religion you want, feel free to spread your (with true free speech, not like we have now) message to all ears who will listen. But, as a libertarian, if you try to force your views on me or ask me to change it is my choice to do so or not. That is freedom, if you try to force your views on me, or make me conform that is wrong. Libertarian's wish you to you life your life the way you want to, practice what ever you want.

Screening laws will still be in place and skills will be at the top of the list. You concerns are valid, but what is occurring right now. None of that is working, sympathizers are allowed to stay or enter at the will of the government (at least this one). Simply put, if you have skills your at the top of the list, no matter your religion. If we need non skilled workers then so be it, let them in too. That is what is occurring right now. The big difference will be the economic situation, if in times of recession (like now), shut the doors to all. ALso, it will not be the role of a Libertarian government to provide the means of support to refugee or immigrant. Private sponsorship will be the model and end the role of government support. Timeframes will imposed on immigrants of any nature to get a job and secure a life with sponsors help. The will know this before coming, unlike to open door cash for life system we have now. That will be the change to current system.

Libertarian's are progressive in nature, and wish to see business and flourish.

Ya, so I am working towards that goal.

[Waftrudnir]

I like your spirit and I agree that we need a different kind of change. Getting involved in a party where you feel you can make this change is good.
What I'm saying is again not to put anyone down, but just a word of caution that when ideology becomes dogmatic and is spun down all the way (history has plenty of examples on that one).

So, when it comes to immigration policy I can only see the ideology side being reflected currently, but not how (other than the deterrent of travel costs) do you think we will keep people out of Canada (or any other first world country) with this policy. It's simply a number game: 80% of the 7 billion humans live on less than $10/day. We are 35 mio and if no other first world country (i.e. someone dumb as Angela Merkel) opens up their borders, there is a potential of 200 immigrants per one Canadian. Add to that that Africa & Asia have 3x the birthrate of North America & Europe and you know it is only getting worse. Background checks are only reliable in first world countries. The reality is in the numbers.

Health care; I understand the frustration, but a dual system is not the solution. There are THREE categories of patients (economically speaking); some with money who can easily afford a private system, the middle class, and those who will not contribute anything (e.g. welfare recipients, refugees, etc.). So who is going to pay for the third category?
Hint, it won't be the elites with the money...

Why I say all of that is because I would like to see more parties on the right (same amount/strength as on the left). the libertarians are by nature hard to put in a corner anyway, but that's not the issue. platforms that are not realistic will not attract voters from the right (and the lefties have already plenty to choose from)

[line052]

Yup, I get that. But offering a private system for those who can pay (not me), will take those people out of the private system (technically) and leave that money at home in private business. The public system we have now is crap and over burdened with middle management, which is sucking health care from the hospitals. The poor and those need it will be taken care of, the middle management cuts will assure actual health care dollars get down to CEO of hospitals to hire front line staff and open more beds. These are some plans and ideas we have.

Education: A forum post on education plan:

Ontario PARENTS: If you have kids and live in Ontario, I'd like a moment of your time. I'm involved in a political party in the province, and we're developing a plan to introduce comprehensive school reform. We're operating on a platform of School Choice, and we'd like to convert Ontario's school system into a Voucher System. This means that would you receive a Voucher every year for each child, of a value that would ensure you could afford private grade-school education. Essentially, we would be re-directing the funds currently paid to school boards, and giving that money DIRECTLY to the parents. This doesn't necessarily mean that schools will be unable to continue operating as normal, but school boards will now have to work much harder for their customers. This also gives teachers an INCREDIBLE opportunity to control their own class room sizes and scale their pay based solely on their ambition. We estimate that each annual Voucher could be worth as much as $5,500 per child. This would allow us to cut roughly $2.5 Billion from the administrative costs of the public school system. Now, a voucher can only be used to pay for registered educators, but this reform would come coupled with significant deregulation of education, allowing essentially anyone to register as a private educator and receive voucher funds. We believe this would lead not just to a huge number of new jobs, but a great way for parents to custom-tailor their child's education instead of being forced into the one-size-fits-all system. Your thoughts?


[QUOTE=Waftrudnir;1005416]

Health care; I understand the frustration, but a dual system is not the solution. There are THREE categories of patients (economically speaking); some with money who can easily afford a private system, the middle class, and those who will not contribute anything (e.g. welfare recipients, refugees, etc.). So who is going to pay for the third category?
Hint, it won't be the elites with the money...

QUOTE]

[Waftrudnir]

if you unsatisfied with a business, a customer should be able to walk away and find another business that either offers more value or matches their preferences better. so, there shouldn't be a difference when it comes to schools.
so far, we are on the same page.

the questions will be around the funds; i.e. can everyone afford adequate education? our universities are completely overpriced. will the same happen to the average schools? how will the school you went impact what university/college you can attend. kind of can you afford your child's education all the way, rather than is you child smart enough. most parents believer their children are so smart and talented (they pay through the nose) just to find out later in life that they are slightly below average.
long story short, money is a good driver/indicator, but when it comes to education, brain and determination should take precedence. are we still on the same page?

the reason why I sound like I challenge those ideas is not because I necessarily disagree, but because I don't see the boundaries within these are supposed to be applied. I know: boundaries are not part of that ideology, but without defining a clear scope/purpose one will have a very hard time to transfer great concepts into reality.
I like to believe that politics need both catchy phrases and detailed strategies.
However, in order to win (as we've seen not too long ago), the only thing that really mattered was a massive propaganda machinery.

[line052]

In Ontario we have had the rape and pillage of the taxpayer. The libertarian Party has been here for 23 years. People have been happy (me included) to go along with their lives. What has changed in the past two years, is two fold. US election and Hydro, people have finally woken up to the manipulation that is done by all parties. Libertarians don't go for that, we have simple policies, more freedoms of choice, individual rights, protected rights. This is what drew me to them, I am a veterans rights, gun rights advocate first and foremost.

Schools - The current thought collective practice of teaching is not working and is not producing educated kids. I have two that show proof of that, many of my friends are saying the same things. One of the problems we face as parents is the one size fits all model of teaching subjects/students. Every parent knows the strengths and weaknesses of their child. Some are predisposed to math, writing, science, literature or just working with hands. If you know your child's gifts you can tailor the education to each one skills. A Libertarian school guidance package would include a pass fail standard for each grade, it would be up to the educator to ensure the child is taught skills needed to pass each grade. If they fail, they loose business. Imagine with the same legal scrutiny as firearms, a mom wants to stay at home and run a daycare/teach (10 kids) and get paid (via tax voucher) for each child ($5500) 10 months 55K to teach at home, or say a staunch Christian or Hindu, or Muslim, French community did this. Say a small community like Dundas/Glengarry that is facing a school closure and having to bus the kids all over. They could form a community association and teach themselves, keep the school open and pay with vouchers to run it.. Say 100 kids grades 1-12, that would be $550,000.00 to run the school, now if they were smart and conserved, trips, food, laptops could all be paid with fund. Fund raisers if needed would be community involved and all those funds would stay in that community, paying salaries, creating wealth. Kids would learn what was needed to pass, because lets face it, not all will become doctors and lawyers, but if they chose to do so, it will be spotted and recognized and developed. This is not the case now.

Currently, the system is designed (programed) to train kids to attend college and get a good education...but if the parents can't afford RESP's to bad, get a student loan and pay me... Will that change, I don't know. But what I can reasonable assure you, the kid graduating from this system will have developed their potential and will have strengths in gifted areas. That is what is not occurring right now...

Tons of parents are currently home schooling with no tax breaks and kids have to pass common tests each to grad to next level. Big difference, they still pay school taxes. The thought of this scares the bejesus out of the system...

That same mom, would only owe $8250.00 in tax on the 55K (our plan 15% flat tax) .. under the current rates she would pay $15,950 @ 29%. The extra 8K in saving could pay for her computers, internet, teaching aids, ect, ect alone.

One of the benefits of this system is the reduction is ADMIN costs currently used to pay school boards, schools. City schools can stay open under same rules and "schools" would have to compete for your tax dollars (voucher) based on success rates. Competition is a beautiful thing to make people work harder.

[Waftrudnir]

arguing that our school system is perfect is a lost battle. arguing that it is cost efficient would be ridiculous!
so, yes there is a need for change and no party seems to pick that up. add to this that property taxes are wasted for a lot of other things, it's good political bait.
what I do wonder however is will the tuition fee be capped? you know the better a school is the more they should be able to ask for, right. but then we pretty much end up with the private school debacle. I have friends who pay through the nose, and I don't think they will ever seen any return on their "investment". Kids in private schools have always good marks (that what you pay for, otherwise they'll send their kids to a different private school). The real frustration comes when those kids transition to a public school, where everybody is the same, grades will drop dramatically and the parents start to wonder why they paid all those years so much money for.
so, perhaps money should not be the ultimate driver and the school fees should be capped to avoid the "paying for good marks" issue.

you mentioned communities. in principle nothing wrong with that. however, we all know that there are a few 'communities' that give a s**** about western principles (not talking about keeping their identity, but imposing theirs on others). I'm not going to map out on here what a voucher based system could eventually fund if there is no framework built around.

I think we always come back to bait alone is not landing the fish, you need a hook with barbs...

small parties have it harder; they don't have a big net to land large schools of dumb fish.
catching one fish after the other is hard work and takes a lot of time; i.e. by the time you fill the bag the first ones already start stinking.

however, as electing small parties will unlikely get them into power either, the purpose for voting for them is often different: it scares the hell out of the establishment and makes they are forced to adjust their platforms if they don't want to have too many go through their net.

[line052]

Well, we agree on some thing and others no so much. I thank for your debate. When it come to "other communities" great they can live in peace and freedom however they chose, whatever their principles or religion dictates. That is a tenant of libertinism, individual choice, individual rights and freedom of that choice without government interference. We welcome all to live freely. On the same vein though, if you try to force your views on me, that breaks the freedom of choice and it is wrong in a liberation view. I live my life as I see fit, and you do the same.

We don't believe in gay, white, black, orange and purple rights. It would not be an issue if you had the choice to do as freely as you desire. If those rights (yours) are enshrined under law for you, no issue, no regulations required. This applies to gun rights as well, you have to pass a test, and criminal background check, after, buy what you want, use it how you want, have as many types and versions as you want. Do as you wish on your property. Carry with you or not.

Right now we have a debate on pot. We won't make it illegal or legal. It will simply be your choice to smoke, vape, grow or eat all you can grow for yourself and personal consumption. If you try to sell 5lbs, you will have a problem. Herbal drugs will be choice, synthetic compounds will still be controlled and be illegal as a principle, heroin, crack ect ect.

So on that principle if we are viewed as threat to the status quo power sharing parties and they see our ranks swell and voters seeing how simple it can be. Mission accomplished. Make no mistake, when we become a threat as we are now, they will turn from each other and collectively attack us. This is coming and they know it, especially in Ontario as we are signing up hundreds more each week, people have woken up over the hydro file and want to take their lives back from government control, now that they can finally see.

small parties have it harder; they don't have a big net to land large schools of dumb fish.
catching one fish after the other is hard work and takes a lot of time; i.e. by the time you fill the bag the first ones already start stinking.

however, as electing small parties will unlikely get them into power either, the purpose for voting for them is often different: it scares the hell out of the establishment and makes they are forced to adjust their platforms if they don't want to have too many go through their net.