Why Fire Dept's at Medical Calls.

[Fox]

Curious , how are they being "hosed " ?

Compare pay vs work between the two, the firefighters union is strong and the paramedic union is not, the paramedics get paid a fraction of what the fire fighters do and they are much busier on an identical shift. Fire fighters also get paid for overnight on call shifts no matter if there is work to be done or not, this sort of thing does not happen for a paramedic, they are busy and not compensated the same way as the fire fighters are.

[JBen]

I have a couple friends that are paramedics and hunt with both FF and PM from SW ONT.

Not sure why anyone should feel PMs are getting hosed. I'm going to try and tread carefully because all to often what's typed ( in the absence of voice inflection, facial expression, etc) is misunderstood or twisted.

My understanding is that all Depts are deemed essential services and as such contract disputes are handled through arbitration. It's good in so much as it avoids labour unrest and strikes. It's bad in that arbitrators can't employ judgement, it's a black or white thing. In short arbitrators don't ( or can't) weigh the "buyers" ability to pay. Just google arbitration in Ontario for an idea of some of the problems its created.

Then subsequent to that most forces are pegged to I believe the OPP. It's one of the reasons much was made about the obscene 8% raise they got last time around. Others forces, including fire and paramedics will be "pegged" to that (with what ever adjustments) scale. So the OPPs 13% (over 2011-18??) will have domino effects everywhere.

All to often this seems to turn into some kind Ping match. The question should never be are
OPP constables worth 90k and all the benefits
FFs worth (X.XX plus all benefits)
Teachers worth ( X.XX all benefits)
Paramedics worth (X.XX plus benefits)

The question, as with any "market" is.
What can be afforded with various things be it sick time, banked sick time, hours, etc etc.
Guy I hunt with gets 9 weeks vacation plus I think FFs only work about 160 weeks of the year (or there about not let split bones).

Point being for illustrative purposes.
Would a Teacher "here" or FF "here" make the same gross salary and benefits

In Mexico?
No, obviously not. The job, the risk, the dealing with crap most others never have to deal with is still the same.....So why would the same job pay a fraction of what it does here?

if anyone is getting hosed its tax payers. Specifically the middle class.
Those people who earn $70,000 as a family, duo income, the statistical middle. Don't have great benefits or Pensions and don't have job security. Tens and tens and tens of thousands of them who have and are losing jobs.

And before anyone says it.
My Father was a FF, gave his life in the line. (job related cancer)

Curious Fox.
How many paramedics die of a handful of job related cancers?
Fall through roofs and break bones?
Suck in lungfuls of ammonia ( back in the day he was known as a smoke eater)
and on
and on
and on

[terrym]

The issue for most people isn't are they well paid or deserve it. Pretty sure everybody agrees FF should be well paid. It's the business model that is questioned. Paying guys to sleep is hard to understand. I know a couple FF and they both have second careers. One is an electrician. How many people gave enough time off to have another business on the side? Again this isn't about should they be paid well or are they brave and necessary.

[Fox]

Curious Fox.
How many paramedics die of a handful of job related cancers?
Fall through roofs and break bones?
Suck in lungfuls of ammonia ( back in the day he was known as a smoke eater)
and on
and on
and on

Read up on PTSD and paramedics, look at the number that commit suicide due to the crap that they see, way more than military personal, it is very sad and PTSD in the medical field is very close to me.

They are also Northern Ontario paramedics, more calls, further to go, less people to cover the area, like I said, the union strength is not the same. You cannot compare all paramedics in Ontario as they do not all fall into the same groups, for instance, in a Northern Ontario city vs 40min outside of that city, same wage but significantly less calls on the same time scale with much more scheduled system rather than essentially forced overtime (due to calls) that occur within the city.

It is not the fault of the fire fighters at all, they deserve what they get but the paramedics are not being recognized and compensated as such. Do you know that it was just this past year that they finally recognized PTSD as a workplace issue for paramedics, they deal with more and see more than police and military but it was not recognized until this year.

[3Wheelerdude]

As far as the FD model, I believe most cities around here have found a way around the expensive salaries. (Keep in mind most cities around here are between 10k and 60k population.)

- They hire only enough full times to bring the trucks to the call. So lets say station A as a Rescue and a Pumper, then only 2 FF would be paid to sleep at the station. The rest of the FF are 'volunteers' and would respond directly at the address paged.
This limits the amount paid in salary and so far the response time and amount of FF available has been great.

[Rustic]

Paramedics are with CUPE right ? Plus have their own association ?
Please explain your reference to "seeing more ,and dealing with more" then Police or Military .

[JBen]

Are you suggesting FFs don't have to live with nightmares? I always knew when my dad had a bad shift. If he didn't stumble into the house in a drunken stupor, I found him passed out in the car in front of the house. Sometimes he would open up and talk about a child's skin flowing through his fingers like hot wax. Or the times they would use spoons to pick up the prices from jumpers, the car wrecks that.......floaters whose bloated bodies would fall apart at the touch..

FFers are usually/often the first on scene due to training, equipment, other.
Think about that.

those injuries are just a few he came home with, including the day he rushed into a building without breathing apparatus and suck in lungful a of ammonia (he'd probably be disciplined for that today, lol) but they all happened and more, like the time he was on the back of the truck, and thrown into a wall crushing his hip, and more. Granted that was back in the day, when equipment wasn't what it is today, protocols weren't what they are today. That doesn't lessen the risk much.
i should dig out some old pictures.


The grass is always yellower Fox.
My father died when I was 20. I still remember a big portion of the TFD turning out. That said, I personally know more guys in my industry that died in their 40s from heart attacks and stress. And I know a ton of FFs and cops. It's part of the family and "extended" family.... Maybe PM are getting the short end, don't know. Do know you can't compare what they do to what FF do. Heck, let's compare a PM to some guy in Afghanistan this x-mas....


anything, be it a house, be it a car/boat, be it a person in a field. Is only "worth" what the "buyer" can afford. Wouldn't it be great if every cop, FF, PM could start at 150k or 200k. Their jobs........I'd be all over that.

Can "we" afford it?
*******
/looks at the middle class. The tax base, the most important part. How's it's been shrinking for decades, and for the last 8 years has been getting

crushed.

[jaycee]

Compare pay vs work between the two, the firefighters union is strong and the paramedic union is not, the paramedics get paid a fraction of what the fire fighters do and they are much busier on an identical shift. Fire fighters also get paid for overnight on call shifts no matter if there is work to be done or not, this sort of thing does not happen for a paramedic, they are busy and not compensated the same way as the fire fighters are.

Fox! The paramedics in your family are obviously grown adults, if they don't like the remuneration that they are getting, they have the option of "quitting " and let someone else have the job who will appreciate it.
There is no need for you to speak up for them on this forum , and we shouldn't be constantly be listening to your whining!
I didn't start this thread to have you or anyone start whining about pay inequities between the different emergency services.
If you cannot stick with the original intent of the thread, stay out of it, most of us here are tired of guys like you derailing threads for your own agenda

You should stick with raising rabbits , and have you family paramedics take up their grievance about pay issues with whomever they work for.

[jaycee]

I remember years ago there was a FF who lost his life going down a "tunnel" in the Grand River to get a young boy. It happened in the dam wall, I believe. The tunnel is in the dam wall, the kids would go zipping down that tunnel. A tree was blocking the exit.
Sorry if I am not using the correct terms or the exact details correctly but I do remember crying because when they hauled the lifeless FF up, his arms were wrapped around somebodys dead child.
There is a monument there now and the "tunnel" was fixed so that kids can't access it anymore.

The tunnel, is called a sluice:[COLOR=#3B3E41]a[COLOR=#3B3E41][COLOR=#3B3E41]:[COLOR=#3B3E41] a stream flowing through a floodgate[COLOR=#3B3E41]b : a channel to drain or carry off surplus water

Correction , it wasn't a FF , it was a Police Officer , Const DAVID Nicholson , a police diver.
This happened when I was on my days off, at that same incident , we almost lost a firefighter as well, the guys on the lifeline were very fast fortunately at pulling him out when he jerked his life/signal rope that he was in trouble as he felt himself being pulled into the sluiceway.
Spent many hours there watching this whole incident,

[jaycee]

Yes Jaycee...wasn't the water moving too fast and the current too strong to be able to pull the firefighter who lost his life back up and he was tangled in the tree, holding the boy?
That was soooo sad
The entire city cried.

I edited my post as you were typing , It was a Police Officer that lost his life , the current in the sluiceway was so strong that the harness on cost Nicholson's safety vest actually broke, his safety line held , but the men could not pull him up against the force of the water.
His safety line was then attached to the fire depts, aerial ladder to try and hoist him out , the rope held but his harness failed , sadly , unfortunately.
This should not have happened , the boy had already been under water , some say for up to 30 to 40 minutes, it should have gone down as a body recovery and not a rescue.
A lot of lessons were learned at this very unfortunate incident.