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Thread: Doe Or Fawn

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by gbk View Post
    Interestingly,never could i locate reason for EAB-to balance doe to buck ratio.
    EAB is not a popular topic with US Hunters so a lot of what is written is heavily biased.

    This is a quick and dirty explanation. You have to delve into PDF scientific studies to find more detail.

    Before we get deeper into the discussion, it's useful to define our terms. A sex ratio is the number of sexually receptive does compared to the number of sexually active bucks during rut (excluding fawns and non-active yearlings). For example, if a population has 100 does and 25 bucks, the sex ratio is 4:1. In an ideal world, you want a sex ratio as close to 1:1 as possible. It is important to remember that sex ratio and population density are not the same thing, and we are not discussing the number of individuals you'd like to see when you go hunting, but rather which proportion of does and bucks is best for the sustainability of the herd.

    In the worst-case scenario, a habitat with an abundance of does but very few breeding bucks can result in negative impacts for the herd and the sportsman (Stewart et al., 2011). When does greatly outnumber bucks, there is a possibility that a receptive doe is not bred when she first experiences estrus (becomes sexually receptive) in the fall. When a doe isn't initially bred, she will come out of estrus temporarily, but will experience estrus multiple more times during the rut until she is bred. The problem comes when a doe is not bred until the end of the rut. When this happens, the resulting fawns will be born much later than if they had been conceived near the beginning of the doe's estrus cycle.

    These late-birth fawns typically have a lower body mass come winter, and in northern climates, are much more susceptible to winter mortality during severe winters (Bergman et al., 2014). Secondly, as they mature to a harvestable size, they will typically be smaller than other individuals born in the same year class. A late-season fawn will grow up to be an undersized buck.

    https://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/ga...cal-deer-herd/
    Arte et marte (By Skill and by Fighting)...The RCEME motto

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  3. #22
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    I'm a meat hunter, I will shoot the first big deer that gives me a shot. If I have a choice now, I would go Doe, buck, fawn. if the Doe is with a small fawn, they will probably both walk away unless it is really late in the season. There are areas that the extra tags are antlerless only, so they must want to reduce the population. My son and I got 3 bucks last year and it is pretty much all gone now, they were not big body deer, but that was because that was what presented for the shot.

  4. #23
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    Hi MikePal-not challenging You ,honestly,but the article below is really something else.It seems the driving force was to fill the monthly quota in a newspaper.
    I will try to place some questions and comments to demonstrate what i mean,hope it works.
    I am THE slanted sentence....

    The topic raises the question: how many does are too many? Or, put another way, what is the ideal sex ratio for the local herd?

    Before we get deeper into the discussion, it's useful to define our terms. A sex ratio is the number of sexually receptive does compared to the number of sexually active bucks during rut (excluding fawns and non-active yearlings). For example, if a population has 100 does and 25 bucks, the sex ratio is 4:1. In an ideal world, you want a sex ratio as close to 1:1 as possible. It is important to remember that sex ratio and population density are not the same thing, and we are not discussing the number of individuals you'd like to see when you go hunting, but rather which proportion of does and bucks is best for the sustainability of the herd.

    In the worst-case scenario, a habitat with an abundance of does but very few breeding bucks can result in negative impacts for the herd and the sportsman (Stewart et al., 2011). So far- after 25 years of hunting and about two dozen or so deer hunting/deer biology books,and being talked to by few respectable deer hunters,and my own observation,just about any buck is a breeding buck ,if at 1.5 years of age.When does greatly outnumber bucks, there is a possibility that a receptive doe is not bred when she first experiences estrus (becomes sexually receptive) in the fall. This is not necessary due of the number of bucks,but due of picky does not willing to mate lesser bucks if bigger are around.When a doe isn't initially bred, she will come out of estrus temporarily, but will experience estrus multiple more times during the rut until she is bred. During the second rut-third rut,i would say a deer specialist should pay attention to this subtle but important difference.The problem comes when a doe is not bred until the end of the rut. Third rut,not the rut.January ,most of the time.When this happens, the resulting fawns will be born much later than if they had been conceived near the beginning of the doe's estrus cycle.There is 3 estrus cycles for any doe,anywhere -not THE estrus.Providing they are not bred yet..they will have 3. These late-birth fawns typically have a lower body mass come winter, and in northern climates, are much more susceptible to winter mortality during severe winters (Bergman et al., 2014). So why that matters for this study-making difference in sex ratio vs deer herd-vs north or south?Secondly, as they mature to a harvestable size, they will typically be smaller than other individuals born in the same year class. A late-season fawn will grow up to be an undersized buck.Or a doe maybe?In the first year,when the buck -or doe is up to 1.5 years old!Period.After that this statement is a great fallacy.He should specify this or drop this part as a point to support his article.

    In the best-case scenario, sportsmen can work with agencies and landowners to ensure an appropriate sex-ratio for the habitat. By removing excess does, sportsmen can help improve the overall body condition in the herd (how so?) If the environment supports 100 deer-there will be 100 deer to have average body...and reduce the amount of overwinter mortality (Boulandger et al., 2012).So-if we encorage sex ratio 1:1 ,as he states.and we have good breeding happening,the herd will grow- this is a big oximoron in the article proper .Late born deer will be smaller,this deer will perish more ,and the weak and the ill,By reducing the excess, hunters are encouraging breeding competition between bucks, ensuring that the strongest, largest buck is the one breeding does.What does that matter for the newborn fawn-how old and big was his father,other then the genes potentially?A small 1.5 year old breeding basket buck can have as good genes-just not yet observable-as a monster 6.5 years old buck.Plus this article never tells us from the get go,what it should spell out-how many does a buck can breed in one normal breeding season(3 ruts in total).
    I would guess a good and lucky buck 9-12.
    If so-the buck to doe ration again falters as a needed tool.


    While some state agencies may have sex ratio information readily available, these estimates are typically presented on a statewide scale. By using a trail-camera, you can get a better picture (literally) of what the ratio may be in your local herd. You’ll get the best results by placing multiple cameras throughout your preferred hunting area after you’ve started to see noticeable antler growth on the bucks in your area.I would really like to know more about this bold statement-HOW to actually do this????

    MikePal-just demonstrating that some newspaper articles are no more then time well wasted.
    I still believe in the articles i read(some were from local MNRF-whatever they call them down south)that the more does-the more deer it is.
    Last edited by gbk; October 15th, 2019 at 06:30 PM.

  5. #24
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    I think it depends on the health of your local population. I live on the border of WMU 75 and 60, where coyote and bear density is high, and some incompetent bio at OMNR has had head their head in their anus for the past 6 winters, and has failed to observe their own OWSI snow course data and adjust the antlerless tag allocation. Deer density is down where I live, mainly due to mismanagement by OMNR. Shooting any doe or fawn is a shot in your own foot if you like the taste of venision. I see no logic in shooting what will potentially be your reproductive unit and your recruitment for the following year, especially when your deer density is low. Bucks are the only thing we put in the freezer. Also shame on MNR with how they are currently mismanaging the provincial moose herd re: continuing to issue cow and calf moose tags when the population is completely decimated. They must be pretty hard up for the licence dollars. If I lived in a high deer density area, I'd take the fawn over the doe. Leave the fawn and you've probably just killed two deer IMO, as Mr. Yote will probably take the fawn.

  6. #25
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    You are right Fenelon,yet there is one catch with the moose,and just about everyone ignores this :in Quebec,they do ALLOW cow AND calf hunting-BUT very very controlled.They seems to be successful,with 15-20 K moose harvested yearly!Albeit i heard they started to have moose decline too....The theory behind cow harvest is the very fact of the moose nature-the moose actually CAN BE wiped out.If hunters take bull after bull after bull,year after year after year-moose being scarce,distances to great to breed receptive cows,and bull moose breeding whole lot less cow per bull,moose also repopulating voids pretty slowly-there is NO ONE to breed cows.
    That is one of the big reasons many years many forum members and else reports barren cows.So-taking only bulls will wipe out the herd too.
    Why they allow calves in QC-i do not have a clue,but would guess-high moose population density/hunters desire to shoot calves when no bull allowed.
    Just spend some time on FAPAQ website,and You will see that Quebec is Light years ahead of Ontario in Moose management.
    Last edited by gbk; October 15th, 2019 at 06:53 PM.

  7. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabmgb View Post
    I'm a meat hunter, I will shoot the first big deer that gives me a shot. If I have a choice now, I would go Doe, buck, fawn. if the Doe is with a small fawn, they will probably both walk away unless it is really late in the season. There are areas that the extra tags are antlerless only, so they must want to reduce the population. My son and I got 3 bucks last year and it is pretty much all gone now, they were not big body deer, but that was because that was what presented for the shot.
    when you drive a mini van and stick the mofo on the top rack, you much prefer a smaller body than a large 230 pound buck. :P

  8. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by gbk View Post
    MikePal-just demonstrating that some newspaper articles are no more then time well wasted.
    I still believe in the articles i read(some were from local MNRF-whatever they call them down south)that the more does-the more deer it is.
    First off let's clarify that David Kramer,the author of the article I posted, is not only a well respected and avid Bow hunter himself, but also a well educated Biologist. The article is from the 'Outdoor Life' blog and not a newspaper opinion piece.

    I tried to read though your thoughts ( few times) on what he has written but couldn't quite grasp what your trying to say so I'll leave you to your opinions.

    His premise for explanation is based on a low a 4:1 ratio, in my readings I see some areas of some states see numbers as high as 20:1...these are the ones where they have instituted things like the EBA programs as a measure to try and control the population and reduce the number of Does. In areas where the problem is not as sever, like Ont, the DNR/ MNR institute the additional Anterless only tag systems to encourage hunters to take more Does.

    If hunters only shoot Bucks, then the population of breeding Does goes unabated you eventually get a lopsided population that is not conducive for deer herd sustainability.
    Last edited by MikePal; October 16th, 2019 at 05:04 AM.
    Arte et marte (By Skill and by Fighting)...The RCEME motto

  9. #28
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    I am in it for the meat! I have enough shoulder & euro mounts to fill a hunting museum! lol
    The true trophy for me is what I put on my plate. Give me a 2 or 3 year old buck or doe any-day.

  10. #29
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    I'd take the doe - soley based on it being about 2x as much meat.
    But if a fawn showed up on its own, I'd take that.
    I hunt 55B and it is nowhere near it's max capacity.
    But you can't stock pile deer - no way of knowing whether or not it will make it though the winter.
    On the private land there is a lot of hunting pressure and everyone shoots first/all legal deer - not much an individual can do to "manage" the deer herd.

  11. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikePal View Post
    First off let's clarify that David Kramer,the author of the article I posted, is not only a well respected and avid Bow hunter himself, but also a well educated Biologist. The article is from the 'Outdoor Life' blog and not a newspaper opinion piece.

    I tried to read though your thoughts ( few times) on what he has written but couldn't quite grasp what your trying to say so I'll leave you to your opinions.

    His premise for explanation is based on a low a 4:1 ratio, in my readings I see some areas of some states see numbers as high as 20:1...these are the ones where they have instituted things like the EBA programs as a measure to try and control the population and reduce the number of Does. In areas where the problem is not as sever, like Ont, the DNR/ MNR institute the additional Anterless only tag systems to encourage hunters to take more Does.

    If hunters only shoot Bucks, then the population of breeding Does goes unabated you eventually get a lopsided population that is not conducive for deer herd sustainability.
    Hi MikePal-thank You for trying to understand my comments.I admit it is not an easy read,but that does not change anything i stated.
    As far as David Kramer is concerned-i really have no idea who he is,and i am not bashing the guy.I had hard time to find info on him on the Web though,which may be an indication him not being as widely known and accepted as lets say : Alsheimer,Geist,Lee Rue III or the more popular authors Eberhart or Miller.

    As far as my take on this subject -Doe abundance is bad for herd sustainability or else is : My opinion-His Opinion-Your Opinion.
    We all have one.

    We should just agree that we disagree.

    Back to the author-i found one article from him,where he is explaining deer urine -Do Deer Lures Actually work article ( The jury for lure effectiveness is out. While many sportsmen credit lures for their success, they may have been just as successful if they had hung a pine-scented air freshener in front of their stand.)
    With all the humbleness i can not transfer thru my reply,and with all good intentions not to be smart or else-it seems he unfortunately never harvested deer with doe pee!Until the Regulation did not change,i was lucky enough to lure 5-6 bucks/and -or does in,and harvested 3 of them bucks,with farmed deer doe pee).James Valley Doe in heat to be exact.How i know this actually works- because they all followed the scent trail i laid out.

    Alas-i lost this great tool few years back,the synthetic lures/pees never captured my fancy.
    So much about Do Deer Lures Actually work article.

    Cheers and peace.
    Last edited by gbk; October 16th, 2019 at 11:49 AM.

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