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Thread: Mayor Tory calls for tightened gun controls.

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by greatwhite View Post
    Exactly!!
    How did you guys come to this conclusion from what was posted.

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  3. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBen View Post
    Well Welsh, while I could be wrong, it was you that first brought "trotted out " the registry .. Should be careful with the "as usual".
    Well, JBen, my "as usual" refers not to the fact the registry is under discussion, which might well be my fault, but to the fact that not one new or original argument is being advanced. That's surely nothing to do with me.

    Quote Originally Posted by JBen View Post
    Seems to me, gangs had no trouble acquiring firearms.
    Whatever it may seem to you, black market prices in Canada vs. the US are well documented and they reflect the effect on supply. I have also pointed out on several occasions the evidence that petty thugs in Canada have been priced out of the handgun market.

    It's to be expected that gangs will still be able to get guns. The point is, it is more difficult and expensive, which is why we see shared guns and rental guns. The evidence suggests more gang members than guns to arm them. This has a positive effect on public safety: the petty thugs who direct their violence against the public are priced out of the market, which is left to gang members who chiefly carry for self-defence against their criminal associates.

    The easiest source to find on this is an investigative series by the Star from a couple of years ago. There are also exhaustive recent studies of the effect of regulation on the handgun market in Chicago. Rates of firearms use in robbery are available from StatsCan and the FBI UCR website. Regarding motivations of gang members to carry guns, I suggest reading Wright & Rossi.

    Quote Originally Posted by JBen View Post
    (today's blood washed streets)
    Which blood-washed streets? Toronto is one of our safest cities. Your chances of being shot in Toronto are minuscule.

    Quote Originally Posted by JBen View Post
    so much for that school of thought, because the simple logical fact of the matter is.
    Its not having much effect stopping the flow.
    It has had a demonstrable effect on availability and price. I've posted the evidence of this before, but I will again: black market price of Hi-Point pistol in the US, $100 - 150; in Toronto, $1500. Rate of firearms use in robbery, US, ~43%; Canada, 12-13%. Gang members use rental guns and shared guns. They very frequently have the wrong ammunition or a very limited supply.

    The market has reacted to domestic regulation by turning to smuggled guns, and then reacted to smuggling by using straw buyers (quite possibly coerced) and targeted burglaries. This is a steady pattern in which the market relies on increasingly risky sources. Both straw buys and burglaries are significantly riskier than smuggling given our open border. This should be telling you something.

    Incidentally, another example of the effect of registries is found in the United States, where the National Firearms Act had a clear effect on the availability of machine guns to criminals. Its two most significant features were a hefty tax on machine guns, and a registry. Transfers of machine guns from the legitimate, regulated market into the black market are very near zero.

    I'm not really interested in "seems to me" arguments. The facts are out there. But as I already pointed out, the point is moot because the registry is a dead duck.
    "The language of dogs and birds teaches you your own language."
    -- Jim Harrison (1937 - 2016)

  4. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilroy View Post
    My idea was that ordinances would have been a better approach than the long gun registry because the gun violence has really been a city problem.
    Municipalities, however, have very little power to pass bylaws regarding guns, as this is a federally regulated area and the Municipalities Act sharply limits the powers of cities to interfere in provincially or federally regulated matters. The federal government would have to pass a law giving cities powers to regulate guns -- which is why the NDP has several times proposed doing that.

    But it remains unclear exactly what measures might be taken. Straw buyers might be better controlled by giving the CFC the formal mandate and funding to look for patterns of frequent or regular purchases (23 handguns in 22 months) for local police to follow up. Targeted thefts are a much thornier problem. No matter how much you beef up your safe, someone's going to get into it. And beefier safes introduce a new risk: it's easier for me to force my way into your home and make you open your own safe with a gun to your kid's head than it is to wait for you to go out and then break the safe. Then we're increasing the direct risk to people.

    I'm not sure what cities could do in either regard. A more practical approach at this point might be to stop worrying about the supply side, and work on reducing the black market demand -- a suggestion that's recently been echoed by Bill Blair, of all people. For greater clarity, that means stop bringing in new gun control and instead focus on the drug market, which is where the money to buy the guns and the need to carry them comes from.
    "The language of dogs and birds teaches you your own language."
    -- Jim Harrison (1937 - 2016)

  5. #124
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    Not hard it was well known long ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilroy View Post
    How did you guys come to this conclusion from what was posted.
    "This is about unenforceable registration of weapons that violates the rights of people to own firearms."—Premier Ralph Klein (Alberta)Calgary Herald, 1998 October 9 (November 1, 1942 – March 29, 2013) OFAH Member

  6. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilroy View Post
    My idea was that ordinances would have been a better approach than the long gun registry because the gun violence has really been a city problem.The registry just upset a whole lot of rural Canadians.I think the COPS in Toronto and PWE guys are doing a pretty good job of getting guns off the street but it clearly is not enough.I have no problem with gang bangers wiping themselves out its the collateral damage that is the biggest problem.
    Gilroy as someone who has been on the streets is it your impression that inner city violence is worse or is the manner of the news agencies reporting the violence sensationalize the issue? And you are 100% correct in that this Rural feels infringed upon when the inner city problems affect my rights.
    Barry Keicks

  7. #126
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    Welsh,
    and yet we have authorities clamouring about the number of restricted weapons ending up in the hands of criminals. We have Tory whining about a student who bought 23? Handguns,....that guy in ALTA who bought 40? Hmmmm isn't that exactly what.......

    you and I both know using the U.S. as any kind of barometer here is useless. Way too many variables, way too many other factors. It's comparing apples to oranges. Just hint at something and they buy all available stock as one example. Scales of economy play into it as well I'm sure.

    You yourself said, there's seems to be some idea that the number of guns relates to the number of homicides. So the argument that a registry does any good...., or is an effective measure....not sure how that can be supported. Not when, obviously it's had little to no effect. You've also argued (and I agree) that one reason for an uptick in domestic theft is the crack down on smuggling. So once again, it's not having any effect....they've just gotten them other ways.....is the registry stopping them from stealing them??? Stopping them from being smuggled in?

    There's also those studies by Langford that show no change...........


    By almost anyone's definition that's a waste and ineffective. Especially when you consider that today some are up in arms about the number of arms (registered ones) turning up in criminals hands. An effective measure would have quantifiable results. Could be easily demonstrated to have curbed the flow, shown up in stats. What good is bringing in some "car safety" measure if it does nothing to reduce the carnage.

    Oh, and for the record I was kind of indifferent about the registry. They could bring it back tomorrow. I wouldn't like it, I'd argue against it as a collosal appear to be something measure. But life really would go on largely unchanged...
    Last edited by JBen; December 22nd, 2016 at 10:32 PM.

  8. #127
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    I'm still not convinced that registration of handguns actually accomplishes a whole he** of a lot other than setting up a huge useless bureaucracy. Restricting supply only fuels a black market in smuggling,but,restricting smuggling only forces that same black market to target licensed firearm owners,six of one,half a dozen of the other. I firmly believe that restrictive licensing will be the be all and end all solution that makes reasonable sense being economical and sustainable in the long run. having said that,though,I also believe that once a firearm owner has jumped through all the hoops,he/she should be able to use that firearm for whatever purpose they need whether it's to the range anywhere and anytime,to carry in the bush or to take it in for maintenance unfettered by silly "big brother is watching" permission to transport regs. Register the owner making them responsible for whatever happens,not the inanimate object that can sit loaded on a table and never hurt anything until some dummy messes with it.
    If a tree falls on your ex in the woods and nobody hears it,you should probably still get rid of your chainsaw. Just sayin'....

  9. #128
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    An example I thought of. Not sure how much it weighs.

    If petty thugs and small time criminals have been priced out of the market and can no longer get them. Well, where's the quantifiable drop in shootings/homicides? Shouldn't there be fewer people getting shot during muggings, a drop in violent crime ( that's attributable to fewer petty thugs having guns). Or is it a wash? They are killing fewer people, but because they are defenseless when they cross the wrong dealer and get shot....so a net wash ( +1 citizen not shot, -1 petty thug) to the stats

    now, not saying that petty criminals are still getting them just easily. Something more along the lines of if they are barely a blip in the statistics to begin with, and typically don't murder people when stealing their purses............perhaps they like legal gun owners aren't the problem? And are a bit of a red herring?
    Last edited by JBen; December 22nd, 2016 at 11:11 PM.

  10. #129
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    Wanted to come back to this for a moment, see if I can clarify and Welsh, do hope what's said isn't misinterpreted due to the failings of the written word.

    Earlier I said "Torontos blood washed streets" and you said "What blood washed streets, TOs one of the safest..".
    Yep it is, my comment was not quite sarcasm, but close. A few times in this thread and in others Ive asked the question. Do we even have a problem, lets identify that first, then lets find measure that address that specific problem. Hence the "sarcastic" TOs blood washed streets.........One might think if we listen to Tory and some others, the streets are running red.

    You said "not interested in seems to me arguments"
    My opinion doesn't count?
    This isn't about whose right, it's about "what's right". Be that as it may, that to was sarcasm. Because it's not "seems", it's reality. In the past year Tory has been in the press a couple times sounding off about A) the number of shootings this year and B) The number of guns in gangs hands, and we all know the concern there isn't long guns, it's handguns. Restricted, registered guns.

    The RCMP have as well.
    In fact in the past 10-15 years entire Police units have been created to try and combat the problem. One of which is getting millions, tens of millions to stem the problem and is called the Gangs and Guns unit......"Seems to me gangs have no problems acquiring guns" isn't anecdotal. It is fact, it is reality.

    "It has had a demonstrable effect on availability and price. I've posted the evidence of this before, but I will again: black market price of Hi-Point pistol in the US, $100 - 150; in Toronto, $1500. Rate of firearms use in robbery, US, ~43%; Canada, 12-13%."

    Im pretty sure one reason a handgun in the US might sell for $100 on the street in the US and $1,500 here is. The sheer number of guns in the US (and other reasons that have squat to do with registries). Another is the retail price. I'm no gun nut, so I could be wrong, but aren't guns in the US considerably cheaper over the counter to begin with?

    And Im pretty sure one reason guns are used in robberies far more in the US. Might be, well the odds of the intended victim being armed are much higher. You know what they say about bringing knives to gun fights.

    It might also be higher due to the sheer number of guns in the US. The country is armed to the teeth.It could also be due to the odds of someone trying to a rob a liquor store get shot either by the proprietor (gun behind the counter) or by LEO as they try to get away.........It's not as if the country doesn't also have race problems and cops executing petty thieves and even people laying on the ground with their hands in the air.

    How that proves that registry reduced the flow of guns into the black market here, well Im not sure. All that stuff proves is that there are certainly more guns in the US, and while looking at the US is useful, it can't be held against life here or any other industrialized western country. Statistically its an outrider, dirty bathwater. Useless



    Now the thing I wanted to clarify, emphasize. Me as both a gun owner and a citizen.

    I'm interested in

    Results!
    Results that will or can be shown to reduce the number of people getting shot, or killed by guns.

    Isn't that the overriding preeminent purpose of Gun Control. Isn't that what politicians like Tory, or JT or RCMP say all the time.That Gun controls sole purpose is to keep and make Canadians safer.......So if a measure is or will do nothing towards that..........

    I have nothing against GC, do not classify myself as a person thats against GC.
    What I am against is GC thats forced on law abiding gun owners that doesn't produce results, doesn't in fact make Canadians any safer.
    Last edited by JBen; December 23rd, 2016 at 09:24 AM.

  11. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by bardern View Post
    Gilroy as someone who has been on the streets is it your impression that inner city violence is worse or is the manner of the news agencies reporting the violence sensationalize the issue? And you are 100% correct in that this Rural feels infringed upon when the inner city problems affect my rights.
    The blatant use of handguns and the birth of street gangs go hand in hand.In the public housing projects where I worked fully the first 16 years of my career coming up against any type of firearms was pretty unusual . Gangs in Toronto got going in a big way with the arrival of crack cocaine in 1988, prior to that there were just loose associations of criminals,especially the crack dealers who were almost all Jamaican background.Where things blew up in Toronto is when the police service took the beat COPS out of the projects.
    The local criminals who had been held in check by local COPS who knew them, were free to run the projects.This was done for budgetary reasons by pen pushers at HQ. We now have a whole generation of COPS who have never worked on the beat, don,t know how to talk with people,don,t know how to cultivate informants, generally do not know what they are doing.They were never given training officers/mentors who brought them along slowly.

    So inner city violence with the use of firearms is way up from when I started and of course the number of gangs and their ethnic make up is also way up, Somalian,Ethiopian,Russian...Technology both helps and hinders the police.Police officers are afraid to do investigative stops or don,t know how to do them.You can BS criminals if you know how to and obtain the information you need.

    There was no possibility in the old days of walking around public housing projects with a gun in your waistband without getting pinched pretty quickly.The local COPS knew a new face right away, we were sneaky and watched people from empty apartments with binoculars and we had our informants, Oh we could also run pretty fast after them.

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