I thought I would share a post made by Evan Graham on Facebook. I apologize to those of you who don't have Facebook so I will try to attach 2 screenshots but I'm sure it won't do it justice. The link is as follows: https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...&id=1062983759
It is Evan's stance on the great debate between marketed "gentlemen's gundog" British labs and north American field trial labs. I know this is pretty hotly debated but it's a good post from someone very prominent in the retriever world and hopefully will bring some valuable discussion to the forum.
Sorry if this ends up being a duplicate - I'm having some technical difficulties posting.
Last edited by Cass; December 29th, 2016 at 07:18 PM.
Thanks for posting this discussion that has arisen due to Evan's post on FB. He obviously feels very strong about some of the sub issues that pervade the argument about 'gentlemans Labradors. . Things like missing health clearances etc.
It's also interesting from the perspective that his business is selling training materials to individuals to assist them in training yet he has taken such a strong position in the debate about the breeders, their claims(or lack of), and talents of those dogs that will alienate some.
It's a strong measure of how a person in his position in the training world sees the falsehoods claimed by some.
I read many of the comments, it was interesting to see that some complained about 'high' strung FT dogs that couldn't sit still in a duck hide or canoe when compared to some better trained HT dogs. It was so obvious that individuals expose their own lack of training in making those comments. Skills don't materialize out of the air regardless of the type. Teach them!
This is very indicative of how strong the views are when it come to telling people how some of these dogs come trained 'out of the box' and no need to do current health testing.........ya
Interesting post- hope this doesn't start a fire- to each his own- Richard Wolters- writer of Waterdog put to print an excellent book on the history of the Labrador retriever - The English hunt their labs in some ways much differently than ours as well as training methods. My last two labs where both from English hunting and field trial stock and they were excellent dogs for upland a well as waterfowl- very patient and well mannered in a blind and easy to train. I believe it is important to research the breeder and I always believed that the dog is only as good as his trainer.
If you read the original post it is was posted not as a "my dog is better than your dog" (British vs North American) post, as Evan Graham was specifically targeting two US kennel's who market their dogs as "Gentleman's Gundogs" without health clearances and ask big $$$$ for their puppies. More of a buyer beware post and then it morphed into a British vs North American argument with the occasional "English"/ show comparison thrown in for good measure.
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If you read the original post it is was posted not as a "my dog is better than your dog" (British vs North American) post, as Evan Graham was specifically targeting two US kennel's who market their dogs as "Gentleman's Gundogs" without health clearances and ask big $$$$ for their puppies.
This is an important point.
In general, if it comes to Brit vs. USA dogs, the Brits do breed good dogs and while their training standards and expectations differ, they train good dogs also. Thanks to the organized, commercial nature of shooting in the UK these days, if you want to train a hunting dog and actually attend shoots with it, you need to train it to an acceptable standard. Otherwise, you'll be asked to stay home. I think sneering at the Brits in general is rather silly.
On the other hand, sneering at breeders who use the word "British" as a marketing ploy to hike prices is entirely legitimate, especially if they aren't doing health clearances.
"The language of dogs and birds teaches you your own language."
-- Jim Harrison (1937 - 2016)
On the other hand, sneering at breeders who use the word "British" as a marketing ploy to hike prices is entirely legitimate, especially if they aren't doing health clearances.
In this day and age where gathering information is done so easily and also given that the Labrador breed is so popular there is no good excuse to buy a pup with out health tested/cleared parents. To try and save a few bucks at purchase and possibly go through the heart ache of a sick dog later just baffles me. People would think nothing of buying a case of beer for $50 but not want to come up with a bit more money for a well bred pup? I don't get it.
I’m suspicious of people who don't like dogs, but I trust a dog who doesn't like a person.
And that is very much the point in all of this. The Kennel in particular that Evan references successfully market their dogs. Their claim also talks about 'dogs out of the box' meaning already self trained. That is so ludicrous to those of us who actively train. Dogs are born with inner desires, that's obvious but not with the skills being referenced.
Unfortunately they do not include 2 of the current tests that most now do. Genetic testing for CNM and EIC was done to improve the health of these dogs. The initial tests were done on dogs from various continents. Those conditions existed in all continents, this was not a NA issue and to claim some from any specific area are free of these is silly.
as Evan stated , he's been waiting a long time to address this issue.....good on him!
Most breeders that I am affiliated with provide all health clearances for their Labrador Retrievers . I have researched many British Labrador Retriever kennels/breeder from all around the world and most do as well. However a couple of kennels in the U.S that sell British hunting stock that i contacted do not sell dogs with CNM and EIC clearances. I even proposed to pay for the testing for a breeding I was interested in but one declined and the other didn't get back to me.
The British kennels in the U.K that I have built relationships with all have health cleared breeding stock. The thing I found a little strange from the one particular kennel that sells British hunting bloodlines in the U.S do have CNM and EIC health cleared animals in their pedigrees. I have researched the ancestors and cannot figure out why they would not continue to test and advertise.
But then then again lets not just pick on a small hand full of British Labrador Retriever breeders when we have so many mixed breeds selling for stupid amounts of money with no health guarantee's whatsoever. I am sure vet clinics are by far more busy with trying to heal these designer breeds from puppy mills. People are generally pretty gullable and need to do their research before a purchase of any breed. Lets move on.
It truly is baffling what people will pay for designer mutts with no health testing. My niece just paid $1400 for a golden doodle. She likely would have paid less for well bred standard poodle.
I’m suspicious of people who don't like dogs, but I trust a dog who doesn't like a person.
North American field trial labs
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