11 fawns!!! Hum......Originally Posted by jaycee
11 fawns!!! Hum......
155.jpgFox are taking many fawns also. I ran after the fox to get this shot.
11 fawns seem like a lot but maybe this area holds a ton of deer?
I got to ask.....did your buddies notice less deer while hunting this year? or was just this an average deer hunting season for them? They notice 11 less fawns (camera pics this year) but maybe this is the norm and the deer herd in the area is still the same?
Basically I guess what I am asking is, did they notice less deer this year or same amount, what impact if any have those coyotes on the herd in the area-did they notice a difference in deer numbers-did their own deer kills average previous years (fill their tags)? I guess I got lots of questions...oh well..
"Everything is easy when you know how"
"Meat is not grown in stores"
I'm a pretty simple guy.
All I know is that every deer those coyotes (invasive non native) is one less that has the potential to make it to next fall for us. If it's a mature doe there a multiplier factor there also when fawn are factored in. Those lost animals represent lost sustenance for us and lost revenues for the gov't.
Our forefathers and pioneers/farmers knew this too well because their lives depended on it. Large predators were heavily managed with bounties, poison etc.
Nowadays our lives do not depend on it and this is why our foot has come off the gas pedal with predator control.
There are more people now (sportsman & native) that still want their deer every year.
Sharing a large part of the resource with invasive scavengers is beginning to rear it's ugly head.
If you keep doing what you've always done. You'll keep getting what you've always got!
Since light travels faster than sound, some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
Since we pay in advance for tags....the gov't really isn't out anything when hunters don't fill the tags...just saying
With fewer hunters and low 'success' rates (I think I read 30%) it does make one wonder if the MNR turns a blind eye towards predator control as they still need a method of control to keep deer numbers down. Those MWU's with extra tags are areas where they need to cull a greater number of deer and if hunters can't do it...then they have to rely on nature.
How many people have stopped trying to hunt Moose Mike? I imagine, the MNR (SPA) has lost a small chunk of coin due to decreased opportunity. However for me anyways, money while important ( see the hit to Northern Ontario following the Spring bear cancellation).
So many topics, so many common underlying themes. Whether it's dwindling Moose numbers here, Manitoba, Michigan, elsewhere. Whether it's dwindling Caribou here, in Quebec (hunts cancelled) and elsewhere.
Saw this yesterday. Fairly interesting read.
"Double Standard on Wolf hunting".
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/tra...408925965.html
Who knows how much of a dent Coyotes are really making. What we do know is that many species and not just Whitetails, have or are declining. As it pertains to South and Central Ontario where Yotes are exploding, habitat loss is exploding, some species seem to be disappearing, human encroachment is exploding and not just Urban Sprawl, in cottage country to.
One wonders why the MNR seems to be more interested in protecting predators, than many other species.
Last edited by JBen; January 3rd, 2017 at 12:41 PM.
Completely agree... a hunting buddy of mine and I are planning to get out to wack some coyotes shortly.
HERE'S FROM THE LINK FROM JBEN LIKE I SAID "I'm pretty simple" this is exactly what I mean
The double standard on wolf hunting
Wildlife management is a difficult issue, but the convoluted system must go
Of all the animal species that are hunted in Manitoba, none divides the public quite like the wolf.
Most people can easily wrap their heads around hunting for species such as whitetail deer or Canada goose, whose meat is eaten. However, many people have a harder time understanding why our province, or any other, allows hunting for wolves, whose meat is more-or-less inedible, unless you’re talking about the most basic, survive-while-lost-in-the-bush type of situation.
Wolf hunting and trapping does occur here in Manitoba, and has for a long time, just as it has in many other parts of North America and across the world. In fact, some provinces and states go a step further and actively cull populations of wolves and other predators. The furthest we’ve gone in Manitoba recently is to offer financial incentives to trappers to take more wolves off the landscape.
For those who ask why, consider this: We humans have an interesting relationship with our food, especially when it comes to competing for that food with other sentient creatures. There still exists a basic biological competition on earth for food resources, but it’s something many people living in First-World, urban conditions can often forget. That competition, however, remains a very real struggle for millions of people across the globe, including here in Canada.
At a recent meeting of the Beverly-Qamanirjuaq Caribou Management Board, some of the Dene and Inuit hunters and trappers on the board recounted tales of shooting 20 to 25 wolves in one morning, just to keep them off the dwindling caribou herds. In British Columbia, the government recently committed to increased predator control to help restore moose populations, citing a report that 45 per cent of B.C.’s moose are killed by predators such as wolves, bears and cougars, while only 18 per cent are killed by human hunters.
Wolves, of course, have a well-established place in the food chain, and are an iconic species of Canadian wildlife that should be cherished and their populations sustained. They enjoy an elevated position in the belief systems of many Indigenous cultures here in Canada and they have a special mystique that is recognized worldwide. But does that mean we should never hunt, trap or otherwise kill them?
How many Manitobans, for example, would think twice about a farmer shooting a wolf to protect his chickens or livestock?
A 2007 survey of Americans, conducted by Virginia-based Responsive Management, looked at public support for hunting "by motivation," including whether respondents supported hunting for various reasons such as harvesting meat, protecting humans from harm and animal population control.
The survey found that 71 per cent of Americans — whether they themselves hunted or not — supported the idea of allowing hunting "to protect property," while 81 per cent said they supported hunting "for wildlife management," and 83 per cent "for animal population control."
In the often fierce world of public opinion, that is substantial support. The numbers suggest that North American society generally accepts the notion of protecting our own food sources (chickens, cows, etc.) from predators, and that hunting is a publicly acceptable way of managing wildlife.
Here in Manitoba, that same support exists, because it plays out in the form of publicly funded provincial programs such as the problem predator removal program, and the wildlife damage compensation program for livestock predation. Livestock producers whose animals have been attacked by bears, cougars, wolves or coyotes can apply to the Manitoba Agricultural Services Corporation for compensation. Those same producers may also contact a licensed trapper "for assistance in dealing with the problem predator," according to the terms of Manitoba Sustainable Development’s problem predator removal program.
Both these programs are perfectly legitimate and ultimately necessary, in my opinion. As people who live in rural areas never forgot, wolves can be dangerous things that, at the very least, have the capacity to injure or kill wildlife, domestic animals and even humans. And when it comes to the predator successfully killing its prey, we’re willing to acknowledge the damage with compensation to farmers, and then take preventative measures to mitigate future kills.
So why don’t we, as a society, think the same way about protecting deer, moose, caribou, grouse and other wildlife from these same predators? Those wild animals are just as much "food" as cows and chickens, yet we don’t seem quite as willing to take the same measures to protect wild food sources.
No one is compensated in Manitoba when a wolf kills a moose or a deer, and people who want to hunt and trap wolves are met with an unnecessarily complicated licensing system and public sentiment that can be mixed at best. So why the double standard?
We already have a wolf hunting season in Manitoba — sort of. You can’t actually buy a wolf licence because none exists here, but hunters who are after deer, moose, bears or caribou are allowed to shoot a wolf if they see one. Manitobans (but no one else) can continue hunting wolves all winter, so long as they’re carrying one of those other big game licences. That’s our wolf-hunting system. The Manitoba Lodges and Outfitters Association has long been asking the province to simplify that convoluted system and establish a standalone wolf licence, and its own season to go with it.
Naysayers will say wolf hunters are only after a "trophy," but that is a common and tired debate for all hunted predator species, whether they’re wolves, grizzly bears or African lions. The fact is, wolves are just as capable of eating moose and caribou as they are cows or chickens, so let’s start wrapping our heads around that fact. Large scale predator culls are about as controversial as it gets in wildlife management, so here’s an idea: why don’t we Manitobans start by making life a little easier for those who are actually willing to buy a wolf licence and hunt them one at a time?
Paul Turenne is executive director of the Manitoba Lodges and Outfitters Association.
Last edited by SK33T3R; January 3rd, 2017 at 12:53 PM.
If you keep doing what you've always done. You'll keep getting what you've always got!
Since light travels faster than sound, some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
I believe Ontario is similar..."In British Columbia, the government recently committed to increased predator control to help restore moose populations, citing a report that 45 per cent of B.C.’s moose are killed by predators such as wolves, bears and cougars, while only 18 per cent are killed by human hunters"
Hunters can't be relied on, in of themselves, to cull Big Game numbers required by the MNR for their Management plan...so predators play a bigger role.
Do you think Mike that theres an over abundance, or even abundance of
Moose
Caribou
Whitetails
Grouse
Rabbits
Beaver
Fox
Others
In Ontario?
Laying off predators in Ontario ( Bears, Wolves, Coyotes, Fox) in order to allow them to pick up the slack where hunting isn't doing enough, makes sense if and only if, those prey species are A) over abundant and B) On the rise.
But what we have is the opposite:
Numerous prey species in decline(Moose certainly) or "struggling" ( WTs hence tags gutted) and disappearing ( Grouse, Rabbit etc in many area's)
Predators stable or on the rise.
Edit add
If you look at that article, and BC or Manitoba. They are expanding predator hunting because predators take more than humans and prey species are in decline.
The opposite of Ontario
Last edited by JBen; January 3rd, 2017 at 01:44 PM.
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