Scarcity of Deer ???

[werner.reiche]

The MNR reacting to an event two years lateis a lot better than 30-40 years ago. The MNR didn't react to the winter/wolf kills from the early 1960's until the late 1970's. You've got to remember that the MNR has very few guys in the field and the guys in the office don't know too much. They react now largely to complaints from hunters and outdoorsmen's clubs.

It's good to see they are trying with the deer. (really trying to avoid bringing up the moose though).

[JBen]

Lol yeah.
hence why I try to include references to budgets, a huge landmass with not just 90 WMUs. Huge and many very different ecological/climate regions. If we lived anywhere but here, we'd be 3 or 4 different states (a lot easier to manage one smaller state, than 4-6) or 8-10 countries in Europe. A person can drive for 18hours in Europe and see 8 different countries. That won't get you out of Ontario, need 4-5more hours.....

Agree, reading some of the proposed changes (Cervid zones) is encouraging, but still as you said.
Dogs
Moose

makes zero sense

[GW11]

I'm surprised that some of you think that it's such an outrageous idea that a family of coyotes could eat 11 fawns in one spring.

Throw in an early winter with deep or crusty snow along with late-born fawns and it's another smorgasbord for the yotes.

Since 2010, with six of us hunting the firearms season and three of us hunting the archery season, we have collectively laid eyes upon exactly one live fawn. One. This was hunting in three different WMU'S in the Peterborough area on private and public land.


http://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/big...ing-your-fawns

http://www.petersenshunting.com/pred...ing-your-deer/

[JBen]

Don't know.
I imagine if the MNR didn't know what Coyotes were capable of, or worded differently wanted to get a sense of just how big, or how small a dent they are making it would be easy enough for them to visit a couple dozen den sites from different areas ( Im sure the Coyotes in cities, don't have the same diet as Coyotes in Chatham, and the Coyotes in Chatham likely have a different diet than those in say Madoc)

And catalogue bones. Im thinking, maybe they have a decent idea.
*********

But heres a thought.
2013 was the winter of the ice storm. Our hunt that year, there wasn't a lot of snow but man was it cold. Mid December temps each day were -30 to start, warming up to a balmy -20. And it stayed that way pretty much right through to March. If I recall correctly the snow didn't let go until April, and we had snowfalls in May.

2014 winter came late.If I recall there was some snow on the ground mid December, but not enough to trigger the migration, or keep them on the run ways. That came well after the season closed,but it came.

If deer are starving,and suffering from the elements, are the dogs "really" faring that much better? I'm thinking they are pretty hungry too..........

So far, this year.Theres snow and lots of it, and all forecast have predicted a somewhat mild winter with a lot of snow, largely due to Lake effect.

[impact]

I'm surprised that some of you think that it's such an outrageous idea that a family of coyotes could eat 11 fawns in one spring.

Throw in an early winter with deep or crusty snow along with late-born fawns and it's another smorgasbord for the yotes.

Since 2010, with six of us hunting the firearms season and three of us hunting the archery season, we have collectively laid eyes upon exactly one live fawn. One. This was hunting in three different WMU'S in the Peterborough area on private and public land.
/

Are you sure your group knows the difference between a fawn and a young doe?
Because guess what, the deer you are seeing today were fawns in 2010, 2011, 2012....etc

Life expectancy of a deer is very short and the fawn grows up real quick almost looking like a small doe come November. The white spots are all gone.

https://www.uwsp.edu/wildlife/Ungula...e-History.aspx

[GW11]

Are you sure your group knows the difference between a fawn and a young doe?
Because guess what, the deer you are seeing today were fawns in 2010, 2011, 2012....etc

Life expectancy of a deer is very short and the fawn grows up real quick almost looking like a small doe come November. The white spots are all gone.

https://www.uwsp.edu/wildlife/Ungula...e-History.aspx

Respectfully speaking Impact, we didn't just start hunting in 2010. That was just the year that we noticed a big drop in fawn sightings. I graduated from Fish and Wildlife Technology in 1997 and have been deer hunting for 26 years.

Oh and speaking of "those deer we're seeing today"... we put in almost 300 man hours during the firearms season this fall and saw 4 deer in total. My Dad (retired) spent quite a bit of time in a treestand for the three months of archery season and didn't see a single deer. There's something not right here. On the bright side, he did get a few trail cam pics of twin fawns this December on a new-to-us property. Haven't seen them with my own eyes but they're the first "sightings" since the one I saw in 2011.

[GW11]

Don't know.
I imagine if the MNR didn't know what Coyotes were capable of, or worded differently wanted to get a sense of just how big, or how small a dent they are making it would be easy enough for them to visit a couple dozen den sites from different areas ( Im sure the Coyotes in cities, don't have the same diet as Coyotes in Chatham, and the Coyotes in Chatham likely have a different diet than those in say Madoc)

And catalogue bones. Im thinking, maybe they have a decent idea.
*********

But heres a thought.
2013 was the winter of the ice storm. Our hunt that year, there wasn't a lot of snow but man was it cold. Mid December temps each day were -30 to start, warming up to a balmy -20. And it stayed that way pretty much right through to March. If I recall correctly the snow didn't let go until April, and we had snowfalls in May.

2014 winter came late.If I recall there was some snow on the ground mid December, but not enough to trigger the migration, or keep them on the run ways. That came well after the season closed,but it came.

If deer are starving,and suffering from the elements, are the dogs "really" faring that much better? I'm thinking they are pretty hungry too..........

So far, this year.Theres snow and lots of it, and all forecast have predicted a somewhat mild winter with a lot of snow, largely due to Lake effect.

You would think it would be easy enough, but I can't see the MNR spending much on studying the dynamics of the deer/coyote relationship when they can barely afford gas to patrol during hunting seasons.

As to the question of how coyotes really fare during tough conditions when deer are starving... I believe they fare quite well. Every deer that starves to death is a meal.

[fratri]

Coyotes always win.....
The coyotes will do well in good winters, lots of live food to eat and coyotes will do well in bad winters, lots of dead animals to eat... With coyotes it's always a win, win situation. With that said, I still don't think coyotes are the biggest problem.

I am no biologist and have no real sense how MNR gets their numbers or data for deer tag allocations but the winters down here have not been that tough at all. Lots of standing corn and farmers winter wheat to keep them going.... Still seeing plenty of deer and ironically very few coyotes....

Managing all those WMU's must be tough...

[Monster29/66]

Deer eat a wide variety of food based on what's available.. Northern deer get mast from various nuts and buds
( white oak acorns ) from my experience, and yes they carry a lot of fat for winter from it.

Further north Thunder Bay, Kenora where agriculture farming is present in addition to big woods deer eat from both.

Are deer population high there YES.. I counted 59 deer one evening in a friends field. Do those areas have coyotes wolves and bears as predators YES, wolves don't just kill fawns either.

I don't believe the reduction in deer in certain parts of Ontario is due to any one thing but a combination of many factors, I don't think however it's a crisis and we will see what this winter holds.

If we recall high deer populations back 10 years ago followed 3 or 4 very mild winters where I parked my snowmobile and ice hut because of it and people believed in global warming.

And the coyote population will correct itself when mange strikes again.

[JBen]

I think you misunderstood what I was really "saying" Monster. Will reword it somewhat.

If the winter is bad enough that deer are having a hard time finding food and thus starving. If it's cold enough that their metabolism is very slow.....Are predators "really" faring any better?

Im thinking they too are having a harder time than normal and are hungry.............Which means that weak starving deer are looking really tasty. I don't know, am just guessing, that if I was a coyote during a harsh winter, Id
A) stand better chances of getting a deer meal than say a rabbit
B) Would like most creatures in nature, want to expend as little energy and calories for the most nutrition.

"do the math"
******