Looking for a Lab

[krakadawn]

Guys
I have no desire into talking you into something you don't want. You are welcome to search the globe, get the size, style, colour of dog you wish. You're feeding it so yes you should be happy.
I chimed in simply due to the comment that most FT labs you currently see have coats little better than a pointer. That is not only inaccurate but very, very untrue.
I concur with you the importance of coat but there are many other attributes one should pay attention to. Please note I am not recommending anyone's dog nor particular breeding.
It is clear though that comments like'those who don't appreciate a free range retriever' and other comments though said 'tongue in cheek' are somewhat anti field trial as you elaborated on further.
Good luck in getting what you want, I really understand your comment about 'maybe my last dog', I am fully onside with that!
Cheers

[Sharon]

Your advice here is a tremendous attribute to this forum Krakadawn. Some people really don't want advice, they want their opinion/choice verified. (NOT talking about anyone in this thread.) It is very hard to have a lot of experience and not share it. Thank you for your input.

[terrym]

Like I mentioned earlier, pay attention when the experienced trialers jump in. These people have typically been exposed to hundreds if not thousands of dogs. Comments are based on experience. We may not intend to test or trial but winners are the product of training and genetics and competition will bring that to light.

[singlemalt]

OK people I think I am out of here. I feel like I walked into a pub looking for a cold pint and friendly conversation. Instead I find a hostile crowd not interested in my point of view. If the sign outside the pub said "Field Trial Dogs" I would have walked by but it said "Sporting Dogs" which I thought included me and my interests.

I know I am not anti-field trials, its just not what I do. Obviously they have been the primary driver in advancing sporting breeds. In fact I thought my comments around "free range labs" and "lack of ribbons" would establish that I am not trying to pose as an expert in the trial or training world. However I believe like everything involving competition it has a tendency to take things to the very extremes. If I was interested in competing in field trials I would certainly be looking for that breeding because with out it there is no way I could succeed.

But what I am is an average hunter and I need a dog which will be easy to train, calm and quiet in my boat, and a popular member of my family in the house. I also want a good thick double coat so I don't feel sorry for my dog late season. Sure he needs to get out there and find my ducks . But some days that number is 0 good days it might be 6-12. It is a pretty simple job for which I need a Jeep not a Maserati. I have been blessed to have had several dogs that fit this description and I am sure I will find another.

Again my sincere apologies to Bay Ducks whose thread I high jacked. Good luck in finding your pup.

Farewell.

[Cass]

Don't be so quick to run away single malt. Lots of great info and people here.

[Ugo]

I don't pretend to have the wisdom of some in this particular subject especially where Labs are concerned. That said, I would be disappointed to see you leave singlemalt. The most salient reason is because we ALL can learn something from most everyone in this forum. To insinuate that we all always agree with each other is laughable however it does fuel our passion by virtue of those very same dynamics - agreement or disagreement. Besides, we want to pull the same way more-or-less and not serve the antis.
As to Labs - again, while not an expert allow me to offer this. There is a misconception within my clan (F.T. pointing breeds) that field trial bred dogs are haywire lunatics that will either go through your window or dig through your drywall for a sparrow. For the most part, certain non-hunters/non-field trialers have utilized this fallacy for self-serving motives. Nothing is further from the truth. I have developed quite a number of field trial dogs from horseback breeding to perform as delightful foot-handled gun dogs. More importantly, most of these dogs are companions in the home ~92% of the time. One English pointer out of Texas is literally a consummate couch potato and won't even climb out of his bed when I enter their home! He is a true part of their family in every way - calm, smart, biddable, friendly....amazing in the field!
On the flip side, I have HAD to develop dogs that were predominantly show bred to become field dogs. The challenge can be....significant. Further to that, I had one here that literally cannibalized it's own foot! It was insecure, volatile, needy/whiney, and severely lacking in natural ability.
To say that ALL F.T. bred dogs are delightful companions is no more realistic than to say ALL show bred dogs canalize themselves.
While genetics play a big part in the fabric of a dog, so does the owner/training/home environment/demand.
All of my customers expect wonderful companions in the home first and foremost. It's a given. There is still an expectation of capable field performance when the opportunity is there whether they hunt 3 or 30 times a season.
So, in my experience, the odds favour you getting a lovable companion as well as a capable canine athlete from a F.T. bred dog than to make a lovable companion and a capable canine athlete from a show dog. .....just sayin'.
As for coat, you should be able to address this requirement reasonably easily singlemalt. Go and see the dogs for yourself, as suggested. Then, draw your own conclusions. Now, since you want a hunter and not a trailer, you might skip trials and go straight to the hide/blind and see these dogs in a hunting application. Your eyes and your heart will serve you well, as will the pedigree that supports a rich history of field performance from unbiased third party observers.

[singlemalt]

OK people you are luring me back in. Probably my Doctor would advise against it. He has me take a pill every morning to lower my blood pressure. I don't think he would be happy to see me walking back into a conversation so likely to raise it .

As seems to happen so often in these type of discussions people don't really read and get off on tangents disagreeing with me for what I DID NOT say.

Ugo, if you are who I assume you are, we have met a few times, I know you have a tremendous well deserved reputation in the pointing dog world. However with all due respect I don't know where you got the impression I was considering a Show Dog? I did say in an earlier post I had a very good dog many years ago who was out of a show breeding mother, but his sire was a FT dog who campaigned successfully for several years. I even added in that post that I would not go this route again because, although I was lucky with that dog "it is a crap shoot and you don't really know what you are going to get."

Krackadawn, you berate me for saying "most" FT dogs have poor coats. If you look at my first post you will see I did not say "most". I did say "many" Now many is kind of a nebulous word perhaps I could have chosen better. To me it implies more than 10% (less would be just a few) but certainly not 51% (which is when it shifts over to most). Perhaps a better word would have been "some". I don't think you can argue that some FT dogs have poor coats. Breeders are not selecting for it and in fact with the amount of summer training, early trials in hot weather and the very short time a dog is actually under the judges eye in the few very cold trials I fear that a dog which sheds heat quickly may even have an advantage in the modern trial world. I just don't want a dog with a poor coat.

What I did say was "I like a smaller dog, what I would call an "old fashioned lab". I want a birdy dog but also calm and naturally quiet. 90% of what a duck dog is supposed to do in nothing. I like the ones who are good at that part. Coat is also very important to me". Now instead of trying to help me those from the FT fraternity on here immediately (and perhaps tellingly) tried to talk me out of what I want. Expecting me to sacrifice what I have come to appreciate in a long lifetime of gundog ownership on the alter of "desire".

I would have been delighted if someone came forward and said "I participate in trials or tests and breed dogs like that, or know someone who does". I would be booking an appointment to see these dogs. That is the kind of help I was hoping for. In fact, in the end, I may have gotten it but "off line" six different members of this forum have PM'd me in sympathy and some with leads on the type of dog I am looking for. I have followed up on a couple of these.

Once again I know I will find what I want, because I know what I want, and I have set aside sufficient time to find it.

[singlemalt]

Moderators, I just went back into my previous post twice trying to add a word. It kept deleting it. Is this really a dog forum which does not allow the proper term for a female dog?

[krakadawn]

Good to see you back Singlemalt. I'll start by restating my previous comment that I hope you find what you are looking for. It's a big world out there and there are some dogs with a wide range of qualities.

I started into Field trials years ago because I was such a dedicated duck hunter. I wanted a dog that could perform to the degree I knew I required. I still am and understand the qualities you have identified. No doubt 'most' of us would like our companion to be a patient and quiet companion while we're in the hide. I am totally onside with that perspective. My hardest going dog hits the scales at 66 pounds.

You are correct about some high powered dogs, I happen to own several and they have tremendous prey drive, in fact one tries to run across the water on launch. Some people like Cass have hunted over them and can confirm how high drive they are. He would also tell you how calm they are when they are beside me or how quickly the 'off' switch goes on when in the house. That domain falls under my control and from puppies they are taught to be like that.

I suppose some are born that way but more are trained to be like that. That's clearly my responsibility. Over many years I've only had one renegade so to speak.

I won't quibble with most/many, we might have discussed how dogs vary simply because of how they're kept. I can tell you that my FT dogs have excellent coats. Naturally dogs kept outside year round develop great coats as well. A number of years ago I bred a 'female' from Kapuskasing around the first of February. She was a FTCH dog that looked completely different at that time of the year than when I was used to seeing her, she was totally an outside dog with an outstanding coat.

By the way I didn't berate you, I simply believe that most/many of the FT labs I see have excellent coats.

Good luck in your search, those of us who do this understand the importance of the 'dog'!

[quackaddict2]

I don't see any disrespect or berating anywhere in this thread ? just good discussion and exchanges of opinions based on each others experiences over the years and accumulated knowledge