Looking for a Lab

[yellow dog]

Well their you have it quackaddict. For a minute I thought I was on the Canadian Gundog forum instead of OOD. Thanks for the info.

[krakadawn]

You have plenty of background, feel free to respond..... irregardless of what forum it might be......

[quackaddict2]

[QUOTE=krakadawn;1021734][QUOTE=quackaddict2;1021721]well yellow dog sounds like your rightfully proud of your dog and you should be,i have learn that this is the case for most dog owners and is the way it should be

im just curious and putting this out there for discussion and by no means trying to run down anyones dog and/or their expectations of their performance in the field
.you trained with the collar in the past? what sort of distances have you got your dog handling to for falls she did not see,the collar for me is not just a tool to enforce obedience (which it does) but also makes my training easier when teaching what I expect from my dogs at greater distances like getting out past short falls to that one that sailed and is now swimming away
just saying for me properly collar conditioning my dogs makes my life a lot easier when I am transitioning from basic to some very complex work

it sounds like you have a very nice dog,please don't think I don't think other wise,im always curious about others training methods and know of just one other non collar trainer that has their dogs doing some of the advanced work that I like to take the time ( and a lot of time it is) to instill in mine.i know its not for everyone[/QUOTE

Hey Quackaddict....I see you asked a very fair question about training without a collar, unfortunately that person chose not to want to discuss that question.....perhaps I can address some aspects of your question

A long time ago we all trained sans collar. We were younger and put more miles on our legs when we trained our dogs, water work demanded we get wet when helping our dogs understand the day's lesson. As you know there are almost no serious modern trainers NOT using a collar today. Unfortunately we still have many people apprehensive about collar training. As you know that is due to sheer ignorance and lack of experience. My collar trained dogs are far better behaved and certainly trained to a much higher degree than one not trained that way. If you were with me you probably wouldn't even know when my dog received a 'nick' for lack of effort for example. I think people have the opinion that ecollars will hurt/harm dogs....just is not so in fact I would argue that my dog receiving a 'nick' for something is far better than someone yanking or dragging on a lead.

I'm sure you are aware that there is a certain breeder that markets his dogs in a way to suggest they are 'naturals' and the ecollar is never used. He claims their breeding is responsible for such and they are the utmost gentleman's gun dog. Most north American trainers call this sheer bunk. An invitation has been given to said individual to bring his dogs out to any level of competition to demonstrate. He will not but continues to market that slant. This is very similar to the claims that breeders of 'silver' or 'champagne' labs make.....almost 100% of retriever trainers are not onside with either.

IS it possible to train a retriever sans collar? Sure it is depending on the skills of the trainer and more importantly his expectations but we're talking basics here. We're talking here, sit, heel etc. We are not talking the teachings of advanced retriever skills required by those who compete or those who wish to have a top gun dog. Don't think for a moment that because your dog will sit most of the time beside you that the same will be true at a distance or when involved in moving.

You asked the question about advanced handling. I don't think this is a fair question to ask as it is both not understood and seen to be not required by many. Better to just have a rock dog, eh Quack? You know throw the rock so the dog will go get bird. Most here would not understand the concept of diversions, poison birds, taking directions at long ranges etcc. Please feel free to correct me if those topics are well understood.

Many of the refined/advanced levels of training lend themselves to the use of the collar. So do the teaching/learning of basics certainly as it relates to keeping a standard, a high standard and one that is very observable.

I'd love to see a dog with transition/advanced or refined skills that was brought up without the use of a collar.I'm also equally convinced that most dog owners have no idea what 'advanced' skills even look like.

Hopefully some others will chime in with their experiences here after all it's really about having a well trained, well schooled and well behaved retriever to enjoy.[/QUOT

Hey KraKa

well I was curious,i guess I asked the question about the advanced handling because of the great work YD's dog was doing and with out the collar,just wanted a comparison.yes I'm aware we all have different expections so when I hear about a great dog that is not collared trained my first thought without seeing such dog is what kind of work is it doing?im not saying its not a nice dog and its not getting done what he needs it to,but I still don't know if the dog handles or not, never mind anything beyond and the unwillingness to talk about it has me left only to make assumptions that it may be rudimental

the statement that not needing a collar was due to the breeding and obedience I found unsual and certainly would have loved to hear more,this is a forum for open discussion is it not.

[quackaddict2]

No I am not really interested in having that discussion. Thanks for asking.

I'm sorry to hear that , especially after noticing that snippet of wisdom at the bottom of your post re William Pollard

[singlemalt]

I can't speak for Yellow Dog. I am sure he has his reasons but I think of a forum a lot like a pub. It's cheaper to drink at home but a pub is where you go to have a beer and chat with someone. Some are friendly and welcoming. Some are full of bullies looking to shout you down, push you around and tell you how much more they know than you do. I tend to frequent the former and avoid the later.

Cheers!

[yellow dog]

I can't speak for Yellow Dog. I am sure he has his reasons but I think of a forum a lot like a pub. It's cheaper to drink at home but a pub is where you go to have a beer and chat with someone. Some are friendly and welcoming. Some are full of bullies looking to shout you down, push you around and tell you how much more they know than you do. I tend to frequent the former and avoid the later.

Cheers!

Well said singlemalt. You and I have had discussions of training before as well as the use of an e-collar and how/when it should be applied. I don't think we are that far off the mark. ')

[krakadawn]

I can't speak for Yellow Dog. I am sure he has his reasons but I think of a forum a lot like a pub. It's cheaper to drink at home but a pub is where you go to have a beer and chat with someone. Some are friendly and welcoming. Some are full of bullies looking to shout you down, push you around and tell you how much more they know than you do. I tend to frequent the former and avoid the later.

Cheers!

AW I like your analogy Singlemalt but I would add in any discussion some contribute and others don't...

[quackaddict2]

Well said singlemalt. You and I have had discussions of training before as well as the use of an e-collar and how/when it should be applied. I don't think we are that far off the mark. ')

well first off it is good to see singlemalt still on the forum, and yellow dog I'm still eager to hear your views on the e-collar and how and when it should be applied,i have engaged you in a friendly way but it appears you snub me.you have made a claim in your original post and now again in this one that I find very intriguing.is there a time and place I could witness you and your dog working together?

[welsh]

Well said singlemalt. You and I have had discussions of training before as well as the use of an e-collar and how/when it should be applied.

The thing is -- and I say this as the same guy who has often written here that e-collars are the most overused and misused training tool in gundog training today -- Kraka's approach is the state of the art in collar use. Way more sophisticated than the blunt application as punishment / deterrent that is so prevalent. As far as how/when it should be applied, I listen to up-to-date retriever trainers above anyone.

[yellow dog]

well first off it is good to see singlemalt still on the forum, and yellow dog I'm still eager to hear your views on the e-collar and how and when it should be applied,i have engaged you in a friendly way but it appears you snub me.you have made a claim in your original post and now again in this one that I find very intriguing.is there a time and place I could witness you and your dog working together?

No thank you. Not interested.