ON Issue #24 - ever growing Sunshine list ... and who's NOT on it.

[JBen]

Shouldn't have read the news this afternoon.

So Gord you think unskilled, assistant store managers are paid to much?

Lunchroom Supervisor: Wai Loo at the Toronto District School Board, earning $111,949.67

Executive Director, Gift-Planning: Karen Bertrand at the University of Toronto, earning $164,738.23

Scuze me? An Executive Director of what!!!!!!!!!!! What is she planning how to teach basket weaving for gift baskets?
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/ca...-100000-a-year

I don't know what its going to take before you and many others begin to understand its not about envy, or green grass, or what you/they think they are worth. Its about a province that is so far in debt, they have to sell H1 to just help pay for a little of the infrastructure spending, things that help create jobs, for you know...those people paying "the bills"

Its about average people, in all kinds of industries with all kinds of post, and many of them have critical jobs to, being able to find GPs, pay bills, their kids, and someday for them to...retirement
And much more.
Is 100,000 the same today as it was in 1996?
Nope
but then again, many studies show.........

afaik if we could afford it, if the average person could afford it, Id say heck EAs should make 100k to and teachers 150k.

by the way in the star report about it they reported today that the average (you know what that is right?) salary in Ontario is 65,000 and thats without pensions/benefits and or job security. Not sure about you but someone who earns close to or more than 100k. By my definition that is way more, way, way more.....

And with job security.
Which these days.........
As Werner said so far out of touch with "reality" and or just look south.

[yellow dog]

I still firmly believe a career path someone chooses should look at it as a calling. An example would be my second oldest son who has finally made a decision on a career path based on who is thinks he is as a person and what he contribute to society. Money is not the driving force behind his decision whatsoever in fact he believes the more you have the more complicated life can become. He and I both agree that in time with his chosen profession that the financial stability will come with careful financial planning and being a good steward of his finances. To me the Sunshine list is outdated and remember a time in the 1980's-90's when a $100,000 was a huge amount of money. By today's standards/cost of living it should be raised to the recommended $144,000. I had always worked two or three jobs to get where I am today over a 35 year working career and it wasn't easy. I always believed life is what you make of it and if you desired to attain the $100,000 pay scale you have the capability to make it happen or be content and live within your means at a lower salary/wage.
Do I believe some careers are over paid ? Of course I do. I too know many teachers, fire men, police officers that make in some cases well over $100,000. Some I think deserve this wage while in my opinion many others do not based on their original intent to get into there chosen career path strictly based on financial gain not what they could contribute to society. We can all remember the lousy teachers we had through our school years but we can also remember vividly the teachers that made a huge impact on our lives contributing to who we have become today. Those are the teachers that deserve more .

[JBen]

/like

My GF is a big fan of Denmark (I think it is). They to pay a boat load in taxes, but unlike here. University is free, and there are no huge gaps between the "haves and have nots". When a "teacher" or "Doctor" or "Cop" or "banker" or A to Z really dont make substantially different.from the peons or each other..People tend to choose paths, that call to them, rather than their wallets. Lol how many threads have there been about kids going to school and spending tens of thousands only to not find work or find out they hate it, or their parents who pushed them into Uni...and on, and on and on.

Where are some (most ) of the happiest people in Canada? The Maritimes........"say no more".

As it pertains to this ship wreck and the stuff going on here. Maybe for some its about envy and green grass, dont ant to get into that myself if I can avoid it, is about what Luandry list of things, and what its doing to just "average" people, and affordability.

So many people getting bent, (Gee forcing ORPP in isnt a lcluee?)..so many people having to choose between Hydro and Food, so many people looking for decent full time work, or have taken part time or lower paying work "to pay bills". Oh what about seniors......ah who cares about them......

But hey, lunchroom supervisors and gift planning executives are pulling in 100k, plus benefits plus job security.....And sooooooooooooooooo many others
/points to 300b in debt
/points to Ms Wynne "finally" spending on infrastructure. 120b over the next 10 years
And so much more.

Might agree on the 100k Yellow Dog and thats a might given the mean of about 40 and average of 65. And will not agree so long as "gift planners" are pulling in 160k or 115 before anything else.

Oh and have we all seen the utter mess healthcare is.
/looks at 800,000 people without GPS and far more serious gaping wounds in it.
/looks at 300b debt
And well....one doesnt need to be a scientist to know....who is getting hammered for it and who isnt.

So "G" do we raise taxes 20% to hire a handful of GPs? Raise taxes 7% to give people outside the GTA a break on their Hydro? and on, and on and on.

[fishermccann]

No JB I did not say that food store managers get paid too much, nor did I say they were unskilled. I said that cops, teachers, and nurses should be paid more than one. I have seen the paychecks of a Food Basics manager and he would be on the sunshine list.

[JBen]

Fine,should be paid more than one. Me, I don't know a lot about that industry.
Is having fresh produce and decent meat somewhat important to you? What would your life be like without them G? beyond that is it better for your health to shop at a grocery store, or Walmart....

Kind of hard to tend your own garden, when your traipsing around the world. And I know you don't hunt.
btw looked fabulous.

Don't know about you but Im thinking food is more important than learning how to write a test. And last but not least if yo this he makes to much and as a result you are being gouged. Don't freeking shop there, you do have that choice you know...........and when revenue drops food basics will look at overhead...
********
But more importantly, AS mentioned.
I'm guessing that person works in the GTA? Where the average is $97,000. When looking at some stats and things this is kind of critical, its been mentioned many times. If Ms Wynne brags next week about Ontarios GDP and crows about 2.5% growth does that tell the story? If the Media (btw way how often do you read say the PTBO examiner or the North Bay Chronicle)...never? So what kind of a picture is being fed to you on a silver spoon?

When Ms Wynne and and MSM brags about Ontario doing "better" than other provinces. Is that the whole truth and nothing but the truth? When Ms Wynne brags that unemployment is at 6.3% (or wherever it is at these days) and its lowest since 2008. Are you being told the whole truth and nothing but the truth?

http://www.payscale.com/research/CA/...Grocery/Salary

Last I checked, there is one heck of a lot more to Ontario than the GTA.

MEAN income: $40,000
Average: $65,000

now I don't know about you, but if a teacher is paid $65,000 (and many are). That teacher is already better off, than the average working stiff and assistant store manager, given they only work about 3/4 of a year. Now add the stupid pensions that everyone in the world knows are unaffordable, and further everyone in the world knows that people without pensions are getting bent, especially if/when they have to pay for someone elses but can't find 2 nickels for their own......and now add job security that most working stiffs in the world simply do not have. What is "your or their problem" with that.

Right there, there are way ahead of the average working stiff. Way ahead and thus, are more than adequately compensated, but more importantly affordable.

"I want more, I want to make more than X because I think Im so important" they said to Bob Rae and good old Dalton McGoofy. I want greener grass. Its not enough Im already way better off than the average tax payer, my neighbours have better cars in the driveway and bigger homes.....Fast forward to today.

Now consider the very long laundry list of problems here in the province and people just flat out getting bent, hurt and hurt badly. Most of those problems are a result of money, either being spent poorly, or too much being spent here and not there (Robbing Peter to pay Paul) , or simply a lack of it, and all of them require money to fix.

/looks at 300b in debt
/looks at the budget where more than 50% of it goes to salaries and benefits
/looks at "the people" and many of them being bent over a table and taking it you know where.

[JBen]

Oh and one last thing, though the OPP kind of screw things up.
Cops and Firefighters fall under municipal budgets, not the provincial. Thus their affordability, just like any other widget or service, is dependant on the town/city or municipality running a tight a ship and that towns revenue. Just like any other real business. If Municipality A screws things up, it only hurts who......................

The OPP to are off the charts, many municipalities have and are having to jack land taxes, on top of soaring fees/taxation, Hydro and more, or gut other services because they can't afford them. Maybe its because a very important plant closed and laid off 500 residents, so the town has lost the corporate tax revenue as well as the tax revenue from the now unemployed slaves....you think don't matter, maybe its because well just because. But the main problem with them now is

arbitration

Arbitrators don't look at whether its affordable or not they look at who has green grass, aka what others make, and further all the other services want greener grass, to keep up with the Joneses. If the OPP make 10, we get 9 and we get 8 and so on down the food chain.

For the record.
I recall being fairly young lad, when I found what my father grossed for 186 days of work a year. $27,000 and I know how much my mother received as a death benefit, when too many years of eating smoke caught up to him. Regardless that same city of TO firefighter not that many years later......likely on the SS list. Four to 5 times what he made back then. Is inflation up 500%???

Right/wrong I don't know
Do know mayor Tory is screaming about cost to. So much so, he wants all of us to help pay for TTC expansion despite benefitting oh so much and that to isn't enough, he wants 905ers who average 100k, to pay tolls on the DVP
want
want
want
want
want

who cares what it does to the average tax payer.

[yellow dog]

Oh and one last thing, though the OPP kind of screw things up.
Cops and Firefighters fall under municipal budgets, not the provincial. Thus their affordability, just like any other widget or service, is dependant on the town/city or municipality running a tight a ship and that towns revenue. Just like any other real business. If Municipality A screws things up, it only hurts who......................

The OPP to are off the charts, many municipalities have and are having to jack land taxes, on top of soaring fees/taxation, Hydro and more, or gut other services because they can't afford them. Maybe its because a very important plant closed and laid off 500 residents, so the town has lost the corporate tax revenue as well as the tax revenue from the now unemployed slaves....you think don't matter, maybe its because well just because. But the main problem with them now is

arbitration

Arbitrators don't look at whether its affordable or not they look at who has green grass, aka what others make, and further all the other services want greener grass, to keep up with the Joneses. If the OPP make 10, we get 9 and we get 8 and so on down the food chain.

For the record.
I recall being fairly young lad, when I found what my father grossed for 186 days of work a year. $27,000 and I know how much my mother received as a death benefit, when too many years of eating smoke caught up to him. Regardless that same city of TO firefighter not that many years later......likely on the SS list. Four to 5 times what he made back then. Is inflation up 500%???

Right/wrong I don't know
Do know mayor Tory is screaming about cost to. So much so, he wants all of us to help pay for TTC expansion despite benefitting oh so much and that to isn't enough, he wants 905ers who average 100k, to pay tolls on the DVP
want
want
want
want
want

who cares what it does to the average tax payer.

Well said JBen ! That is my and many other municipal employees biggest beef that are not police officers or fire men when the tax base is lost due to a major plant closer . This results in less staff for me to manage and a much tighter operating budget due to loss of the tax base. The police and fire fighters are not affected by this and life goes on for them.

[fratri]

J-Ben you really got a heart-on for teachers...... Every time a topic like this comes up, you go after the teachers.....I hope one day you can move on.

Teachers are not the problem to this provinces debts, it is the government that doesn't manage the tax money collected off our paychecks, fuel, clothing, hydro, heating, grocery, property tax etc......... from us. They just don't manage the funds like it was their own money, they spend a lot of it foolishly and that is the true problem.
If the government didn't waste our taxed dollars, we would have a lot less debt. The problem with the government is that they are only looking at the short term goal (getting voted back in) whereas most citizens look at the long term goal retirement. be it through pension or investment.
The sunshine list should be updated to represent todays current value (closer to $150,000)...... If anyone thinks they make too much money, they can always donate that extra cash to some deserving/needing family or individual.

Now this is some silliness being added here but.............................. Maybe those people benefiting from living around the GTA where housing pricing average 1.2 million should be charged a Province GTA Housing Tax when they sell. Those tax dollars can go to towns that haven't benefited from the GTA craze, that seems fair to me....

[terrym]

. I have seen the paychecks of a Food Basics manager and he would be on the sunshine list.

Two things here. First that store manager isn't paid by taxpayers who earn less and don't have a pension.
Secondly the typical grocery store likely has near 100 staff, possibly 75-100 million in sales of products that can have very short shelf lives. Gross margins in the grocery industry can be quite slim in some categories if you factor in writoffs of perishables. Also these stores are typically open 7 days a week for very long hours. People need to eat and demand quality at low prices. Do you really think a teacher is that much more important than the guy who sells you your dinner? By the way 3 of my best friends are teachers and my daughter is 3/4 in her teaching degree at University. I have a lot of respect for many of them but know darn well what reality is.
Most civil servants do an honest job and care. The problem is there are too many and we can't afford to pay them a salary for 25 years and a pension for 20 more years. That formula stopped working 30 years ago.
There is a reason Trump got elected. The middle class also want to drain the swamp. "Executive Directors" of gift selection? That title also means there is a director and several managers and god knows how many more.
There is reason why Brexit happened. The middle class got tired of multiple layers of self serving government sucking tax money. At some point the Civil service need to understand every dollar they get was taken from another taxpayer who likely have less.
The problem with government is rarely the front line workers. It's the levels of redundant bureaucracy. How many people in the Ministry of Health ever look a patient in the eye? Also that Janitor who made over $100k likely doesn't have that as his salary. He probably made $30k in overtime so worked too many hours. Those hours likely weren't needed and the manpower requirements are poorly managed. Probably by an "executive director".

[JBen]

And being a teacher Fatri I can see why the truth of matter bothers you. You don't like hearing it. If ever there has been one single group of whiners in Ontario its teachers. Even more ironic given "your" many tantrums over the years...........lol...ah poor little teacher doesn't like it when huge chunks of populace have had it with them and voice it, but no trouble crying about every little thing every 4 years.
perspective have you looked around the province?

And given you guys have pretty damn good compared to so many others........"what are you winning about so often" and remind us please who this admins number one support group is?
Ah yes, those same Teachers Unions.


News flash Fatri I am not the only resident of Ontario that has had it with them...given things. In fact Im down right nice about it compared to many others.

But as noted above every nurse, or every CO or every X that gets let go when they gut other services lower down the pet chain.........See Yellow Dogs post.
"good job"

And yes if you could read (hope English isn't what you teach) you might have seen an earlier statement.
"There is far more thats wrong than just this". Lol I just love it when people have trouble reading.
Good thing you don't teach our kids English....Or do you?