Tundra Swan Permits Have Increased

[greatwhite]

Rarely do I see someone so spiteful as some on here.

Jerome thank you for your efforts.

Some people on here would rather see hunting shut down forever.

[jaycee]

For your information as well as for those who may have believed your latest rant ... the last Trumpeter Swan that was legally harvested in Ontario was at Long Point in 1886. The Trumperter Swan was not extirpated from Ontario over 200 years ago as you have claimed in post 78.

To counter your statement check out this link;https://www.wyemarsh.com/swans
From this link; Swans
Originally native to Ontario, the Trumpeter swan's extirpation from eastern Canada over 200 years ago was primarily due to hunting pressure and habitat loss.

Biologist Harry Lumsden began a provincial reintroduction program in the early 1980's to re-establish the Trumpeter swan in its former habitat and range.

WHO IS TELLING THE TRUTH???

Another link;www.thestar.com/news/ontario/2009/03/29/trumpeter_swans_making_a_comeback_in_ontario.html
From this link;Trumpeter swans making a comeback in Ontario
After disappearing from the the province in the 1880s, North America's largest waterfowl is making a comeback in Ontario.

Link;https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...1108205954.htm


From this link;Trumpeter Swans Re-established In Ontario, Canada
Date:
November 16, 2007
Source:
Wye Marsh Wildlife Centre
Summary:
Originally native to Ontario, the trumpeter swan disappeared from Eastern Canada early in the 20th century. Restoration efforts were initiated in the early 1980's to reintroduce the trumpeter swan to its former range. Through conservation efforts the Ontario population has now reached 1000, with at least 131 breeding pairs, and the future looks bright.

Buddy Boy ! you claim they were not extirpated yet 3 different articles claim that they were. Where is the truth ??? , and there are more articles , if you want to follow them up.

From an older article by OFAH ;https://www.ofah.org/2003/03/o-f-a-h...umpeter-swans/

http://onnaturemagazine.com/wp-conte...mmer-swans.pdf
From the above link,
By the late 1880's , The last Trumpeter Swan had been killed in Ontario.
Since 1916 this species has been Protected in all parts of Canada, the U.S. and Mexico under the Migratory Birds Convention Act.. but the legislation came too late.
The original tens of thousands of Trumpeters native to Canada had been reduced to an estimated 380 by 1981 concentrated in the western provinces.

http://www.trumpeterswancoalition.co...ter-swans.html
From the above;[COLOR=#D19852]About Trumpeter Swans[COLOR=#000000][COLOR=#D19852][FONT='Times New Roman', Times, serif][COLOR=#333333][/FONT]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT='Times New Roman', Times, serif][COLOR=#333333]The largest swan in the world, the Trumpeter Swan, is native to North America.[/FONT]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT='Times New Roman', Times, serif][COLOR=#333333]Once hundreds of thousands of pairs of these birds nested in the northern areas of Canada and the U.S. in the summer and then migrated to warm southern U.S. marshes for the winter. [/FONT]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT='Times New Roman', Times, serif][COLOR=#333333]With the arrival of Europeans, these birds became widely hunted. Valued for their beautiful feathers, their meat and even for their feet which were used to make ladies’ purses, they began to die out. In Ontario, the last Trumpeter was shot by a hunter in Long Point in 1886. By 1935, only 69 Trumpeters were counted in all of North America. It looked like these beautiful birds were about to join the long list of species that had been hunted to extinction but then there were two lucky breaks: a previously unknown flock was discovered in Alaska and people started to realize these birds must be protected. Thus a movement was born to save this species and it’s habitat and to try and reintroduce it to areas where it had been wiped out by hunting.[/FONT]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT='Times New Roman', Times, serif][COLOR=#333333]In the U.S., citizens led the way and governments followed. Hunting was banned and habitat was protected but in Ontario it seemed the Trumpeters were gone for good.[/FONT]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT='Times New Roman', Times, serif][COLOR=#333333][/FONT]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT='Times New Roman', Times, serif][COLOR=#ff9900]A Second Chance[/FONT]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT='Times New Roman', Times, serif][COLOR=#333333]In 1982, retired Ministry of Natural Resources biologist Harry Lumsden made it his mission to bring the Trumpeter’s back to Ontario.[/FONT]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT='Times New Roman', Times, serif][COLOR=#333333]He was able to get eggs from northern Alberta and Alaska and convince some Ontario landowners to help raise the resulting young cyngets. Over time, enough were raised that they could be released into the wild. [/FONT]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT='Times New Roman', Times, serif][COLOR=#333333]Slowly over many years, these birds began to spread out and reestablish their [FONT='Times New Roman', Times, serif][COLOR=#333333]territory.[/FONT][/FONT]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT='Times New Roman', Times, serif][COLOR=#333333]Today, after 30 years of efforts to bring back the Trumpeters their population in Ontario numbers just over 800 birds. There are several reasons why their population remains low. Many Trumpeters have been lost due to lead poisoning that they get from accidently ingesting lead shot and fishing lures while feeding in marshes. Others are lost to collisions with powerlines and occasionally some are shot by hunters although it is illegal to do so.[/FONT]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT='Times New Roman', Times, serif][COLOR=#333333]Habitat loss, especially of wintering areas, is also greatly impacting their restoration. [/FONT]

[Buddy Boy]

Hello Jaycee,

Thank you for providing all that documentation for us. However please note the following:

1) I stated that the Trumpeter Swan was not extirpated from Ontario over 200 years ago but I did not say that the Trumpeter Swan was not extirpated. The Province of Ontario is considered Central Canada and your first reference stated Eastern Canada. Your second reference stated "the 1880s" less than 140 years ago. Your third reference stated Eastern Canada and "early in the 20th century" about 100 years ago.

2) I stated the the last Trumpeter Swan that was legally harvested in Ontario was at Long Point in 1886 and this statement was confirmed by your fourth reference which stated "late 1980s" and by your fifth reference which specifically stated "Long Point in 1886".

3) The fourth reference indicated that the Trumpeter Swan was protected in 1916. Actually all swans were "protected" in 1916 until 1961 when the United States started a swan season for the Western Population of Tundra Swans, 1983 when the United States started a swan season for the Eastern Population of Tundra Swans and 1995 when the United States started a "General Swan Season" out west that included an incidental harvest of Trumpeter Swans.

4) The CWS has stated in their Tundra Swan Season Assessment that an incidental harvest of a limited number of Trumpeter Swans will not be detrimental to the Interior Population of Trumpeter Swans ... especially considering a 115% increase in a 5 year period.

My comments were for the most part from the appropriate Management Plans for the two (2) populations of Tundra Swans and the Management Plan for the Trumpeter Swan population (with three sub-populations) with reference to the CWS Tundra Swan Season Assessment.

Jerome Katchin, D.V.M.

[jaycee]

3) The fourth reference indicated that the Trumpeter Swan was protected in 1916. Actually all swans were "protected" in 1916 until 1961 when the United States started a swan season for the Western Population of Tundra Swans, 1983 when the United States started a swan season for the Eastern Population of Tundra Swans and 1995 when the United States started a "General Swan Season" out west that included an incidental harvest of Trumpeter Swans.

Why do you keep referencing other jurisdictions? The U.S. in this post, and Saskatchewan in another post , we are dealing here with the Ontario population , non other .
You try to keep fogging the main issue hoping others will fall blindly along into your path .

Say "Goodnight ".

[Sinker]

I am done with this BS on here, but I will say that Jerome's argument is a lot stronger than Jaycee's........

I don't get why you are so against this Jaycee. It just doesn't make sense to me at all. I feel its just out of spite for Jerome. If its personal, keep it that way, we don't need to read it here.

I am very interested in actual FACTS, not whining about ID'ing a bird that is very easily ID'd.....

S.

[Buddy Boy]

Hello Guys,

The migratory game birds (Trumpeter Swan and Tundra Swan) that we are discussing on this thread are a shared resource between Canada and the United States. Furthermore both species are managed under their appropriate Management Plans that are joint agreements between our two (2) countries.

Although there is an "Ontario Population" of Trumpeter Swans it is part of the Interior Population of Trumpeter Swans ... one of three (3) sub-populations that form the Continental Population. I will post some figures regarding these three (3) sub-populations later next week.

There is no "Ontario Population" of Tundra Swans as the birds that we see are migratory birds from the Eastern Population of Tundra Swans.

Jerome Katchin, D.V.M.

[honker220]

I generally don't post to any forum, I am more interested in being out there hunting waterfowl as that is all I do it is my passion. Though I would find it amusing to see my retriever return a swan to hand, I do not support a tundra swan hunt at all. Though I believe it would be sustainable, I thing in the long run it would be something the non-hunting public would not support and though I do not agree with non hunting people's view of hunting, it is the "public" in general that has neither a positive nor negative view of hunting that forms the majority of opinion that matters when your trying to open areas to hunting or hunting on sunday etc, etc..
Now for as long as I can remember I have gone to the Aylmer wildlife area every day in the spring and viewed the tundra swan migration. It is the closest you will get to tundra swans anywhere in Ontario. Though I do view the swans I am mainly interested in viewing the geese, looking for legs bands as this is what I do every other day of the year. People all over Ontario come there to view them, bus loads of people. Every year when I am standing in the viewing stand the subject of swan hunting comes up in various forms. I can say this, in general the view of hunting swans is very negative from the non hunting public, the anti-hunting public, and from the general hunting public. I have had many conversations as I don't hide the fact I hunt waterfowl and they are always friendly and I not going to go into the conversations but in short I think it would hurt the public's view of hunting. Though it is easy to say who cares, it is the majority that will decide hunting's future and I don't see a swan hunt being a positive.
It would be limited to a tag, shoot one bird and your done for the season. I would bet it would spike and decline in popularity. I think it is disingenuous to say hunters could safely identify tundra swans over trumpeter swans under hunting conditions. Its not that easy to correctly identify them, I am sorry but that is true. It takes an expert. So there would be trumpeters shot, though it would probably not negatively in pact them in the long run, the perception in the publics eye would be negative towards hunting.
So that is what I have to say, I hope people take it for what it is my humble view of things. I love viewing waterfowl, I do it everyday of my life, I hunt them everyday I can ( 14 waterfowl hunts this season already) Its just I can't see it being a positive to my waterfowl hunting future therefore I am against it.

[jaycee]

I generally don't post to any forum, I am more interested in being out there hunting waterfowl as that is all I do it is my passion. Though I would find it amusing to see my retriever return a swan to hand, I do not support a tundra swan hunt at all. Though I believe it would be sustainable, I thing in the long run it would be something the non-hunting public would not support and though I do not agree with non hunting people's view of hunting, it is the "public" in general that has neither a positive nor negative view of hunting that forms the majority of opinion that matters when your trying to open areas to hunting or hunting on sunday etc, etc..
Now for as long as I can remember I have gone to the Aylmer wildlife area every day in the spring and viewed the tundra swan migration. It is the closest you will get to tundra swans anywhere in Ontario. Though I do view the swans I am mainly interested in viewing the geese, looking for legs bands as this is what I do every other day of the year. People all over Ontario come there to view them, bus loads of people. Every year when I am standing in the viewing stand the subject of swan hunting comes up in various forms. I can say this, in general the view of hunting swans is very negative from the non hunting public, the anti-hunting public, and from the general hunting public. I have had many conversations as I don't hide the fact I hunt waterfowl and they are always friendly and I not going to go into the conversations but in short I think it would hurt the public's view of hunting. Though it is easy to say who cares, it is the majority that will decide hunting's future and I don't see a swan hunt being a positive.
It would be limited to a tag, shoot one bird and your done for the season. I would bet it would spike and decline in popularity. I think it is disingenuous to say hunters could safely identify tundra swans over trumpeter swans under hunting conditions. Its not that easy to correctly identify them, I am sorry but that is true. It takes an expert. So there would be trumpeters shot, though it would probably not negatively in pact them in the long run, the perception in the publics eye would be negative towards hunting.
So that is what I have to say, I hope people take it for what it is my humble view of things. I love viewing waterfowl, I do it everyday of my life, I hunt them everyday I can ( 14 waterfowl hunts this season already) Its just I can't see it being a positive to my waterfowl hunting future therefore I am against it.

Honker ! great post very thoughtful , thank you for not being short sighted or tunnel visioned on this subject.

[jaycee]

I am done with this BS on here, but I will say that Jerome's argument is a lot stronger than Jaycee's........

I don't get why you are so against this Jaycee. It just doesn't make sense to me at all. I feel its just out of spite for Jerome. If its personal, keep it that way, we don't need to read it here.

I am very interested in actual FACTS, not whining about ID'ing a bird that is very easily ID'd.....

S.

Absolutely no spite intended, and if it was personal , I would send anything like that via PM.

It seems very obvious that you have not read any of the info from the links that were provided, info. from experts in the field that are raising Trumperters here in Ontario, bringing them back from exterpitation, and from biologists, [experts] that I believe would not publish falsehoods.

As for myself, I am just being pragmatic.

prag·mat·ic
praɡˈmadik/Submit
adjective
dealing with things sensibly and realistically in a way that is based on practical rather than theoretical considerations.

[Buddy Boy]

Hello Honker 220,

Thank you for posting your thoughts on this topic.

Please consider that the same concerns were expressed back in 1982 when the CWS and the MNR introduced a limited (two week) Canada Goose season in southwestern Ontario (Cambridge Area) with a bag limit of one (1) goose per day.

You have a Canada Goose season today because of that introduction.

Jerome Katchin, D.V.M.