MNRF cuts.

[Ontariofarmer]

When the public sector gets too big it will crush the private sector who pays the bills


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[fratri]

Complain, complain, complain..............how is that working for you............ It's like listening to CFRB 1010.......... Green grass must grow on your side of the street too.

[MarkB]

Well Mark it sounds like you've heard some pretty strong anti-union stories but I'm not so sure you know exactly how it works. There's also always two sides to a story.

Without knowing the details about exactly what type of business and what union it was, a couple of things stand out to me in your post. Both your family and the union would have been working together under an agreed upon collective agreement. So maybe the "hassle" you speak of was because someone wasn't holding up their end of the deal, your family included. Maybe disagreements on language interpretation, maybe just flat out breaking the terms of the agreement. In any case, there's a process. Your family could have issued discipline to the slackers and the union could respond through the grievance and arbitration procedure. Anything that can't be settled before arbitration would be legally settled by an arbitrator.

The "demands" you speak of can generally only be made during bargaining, which the business owners had the right to refuse or renegotiate. Maybe the union would have gone on strike, maybe not.

A good question would be why did the folks who worked for your family unionize in the first place? If they were treated so well, they wouldn't have needed to right? Or so they say....

In any case, I'm more than happy to discuss this through PM if you would rather. Lots of missing details but I understand why you wouldn't want to post them.


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I didn't run their business, but I know they said many times unions were being unreasonable. It seems the unions kept stepping up demands, and why did they unionize, not sure, but perhaps it was a contractual requirement for the big housing developers to only work with unionized companies? Maybe they didn't have a choice.

So, yes, there's always two sides to the story, and I will repeat what we've already both agreed on ... corruption and greed will see that there is unfairness at some point in time, and I hope you aren't going to sit here and try and convince me there's no abuse by unions. I think there was a time and place for them ... we live in a first world country, with fairly decent labor laws ...

[MarkB]

So shouldn't we all fight to get them (benefits) when you most need them? or are we okay with how things are? I know I am not okay with how things are. If you don't fight for improvements, most times they won't come on their own.
Anyway, my brother the electrician and my retired dad's company (unionized, sewer and water-main) has benefits when retired, so there are some that do but my point is I want them when I retire too....don't you?

Fight to get what?? Who pays for all this stuff? You think if you are given it, it's free?? I don't get it. Why not plan properly for your retirement?

[MarkB]

It sounds like his family is in the construction trades. That's an absolute mine field for contractors. From what I've seen of some of the antics,I don't understand how most contracting companies can function. I have two friends who started businesses in framing,drywall and electrical. They built their businesses up from nothing to hiring 10 trades people. To get contracts,they needed to join unions. Within 5 years,their labor and benefit costs caused the businesses to teeter on the edge of failure all the time. It became so nerve wracking,they both decided to close and work as independents outside of general contracting. Life has been a lot better for them both ever since.

Your guess was way more accurate than GW11's. Seems he refuses to believe the notion that Unions can abuse companies...

[MarkB]

It's definitely a different beast than a traditional unionized manufacturing plant, which is where most of my experience is.

In rereading MarkB's post a few times after my response (and with your added insight Trimmer), I can see why he has the opinion that he does. That being said, his opinion on unions in general is a relatively broad statement based on a somewhat narrow experience.

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Wait, what % of the labor force is in construction trades in Ontario?

[MarkB]

So would you rather work under poor conditions for minimum wage, no benefits or pension. Unions have their place in the workforce. But yes I to won't deny they sometimes do more harm then good in some places. What the main purpose of a union is to create a fair and equal working environment for all employees. Some places need unions while some do not.
To think the power has shifted to unions is crap. Arbitrators are far more in favor of companies nowaday then 15+ years ago.

Why do a few people change my subject of abuse of power by unions to working for minimum wage? That is not what I'm arguing ... why would a qualified electrician need a union? To prevent him/her from getting minimum wage? That would mean they are just terrible business people if they can only sell their qualified services for minimum wage.

[GW11]

I didn't run their business, but I know they said many times unions were being unreasonable. It seems the unions kept stepping up demands, and why did they unionize, not sure, but perhaps it was a contractual requirement for the big housing developers to only work with unionized companies? Maybe they didn't have a choice.

So, yes, there's always two sides to the story, and I will repeat what we've already both agreed on ... corruption and greed will see that there is unfairness at some point in time, and I hope you aren't going to sit here and try and convince me there's no abuse by unions. I think there was a time and place for them ... we live in a first world country, with fairly decent labor laws ...

Seriously Mark? You don't think companies can be unreasonable, abusive and constantly stepping up demands? Get a grip. Don't let your view of "companies" be limited to your family's construction business.

Yes, there can be abuse by unions and companies alike, but you refuse to see the other side.



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[GW11]

Wait, what % of the labor force is in construction trades in Ontario?

Compared to all other unionized jobs? Public and private health care, service, retail, manufacturing, delivery and transportation services, etc., etc.

Construction trades make up a share but don't come anywhere near being the majority. Show me something otherwise.

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[Ontariofarmer]

So the public sector unions sending me this mail box junk so the gravy train union can influence my vote and improve their pay checks and jeopardize our financial stability


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