Now that we're all sitting "on the nest"

[swampsinger]

I think that trying to blame the decline of woodcock across north america on bird dog training is a bit of stretch.

[terrym]

[/QUOTEarding

So my take on this you do not have any concerns regarding deer hunters releasing their hounds for training purpose out of season because they do not carry and rifles or shot guns. There are laws against this!![/QUOTE]

How does hound hunting for big game mean anything to a discussion of woodcock decline and bird dogs?

[finsfurfeathers]

Think its just an ill thought out argument. Closest thing one can find specifically prohibiting training dogs on game. Totally irrelevant however when one is grasping at straws all is good. Unless specifically prohibited I don't worry too much.
[url=https://flic.kr/p/QNoYma]
In any case wonder how many guys round here actually still partake in the opportunity. Been offering for the last 3 springs a little woodcock 101 with my dogs around here, have yet to get one to accept.

[swampsinger]

"So my take on this you do not have any concerns regarding deer hunters releasing their hounds for training purpose out of season because they do not carry and rifles or shot guns. There are laws against this!!"

Calling bs on this. Why trash talk houndsmens to make a point about woodcock decline.

[krakadawn]

Some people over generalize such that they will try to drag everything and anybody into the argument. It's just an opinion.

[Fenelon]

Re:"Not what I said. Again evolution is a rolling ball that we can’t change much but let’s not blame dog owners training off season for the woodcocks decline."
This is indeed not what I said, or inferred . My point is that what you are doing (intentionally hunting your dogs on closed season birds) is against the law. If you're obviously not willing to accept that you're breaking the law, then hopefully your ethics kick in and make you realize what you're doing is ,even more so ,ethically and morally wrong, given the current state that the population is in.

Sorry for the tardy reply. I contacted enforcement at both MNR and CWS to get an official response. I asked them if it is legal to intentionally train your dog on returning spring Woodcock that are in closed season. I asked them what their response would be if they encountered evidence of this while out on patrol. Here you go:

Reply from Ontario CWS Game Officer:
"If complaints are received, or evidence of such activity was encountered by officers in the field, they would assess and investigate to determine if offences under the MBCA/MBRs are occurring. As no permits exist or are issued for the activity described, the primary concern would likely be around the disturbance of nests, but may also include hunting (harass) during the closed season or without permit ".

And from an Ontario CO:
"If I came across this on patrol and it was obvious that the individual was intentionally working/training their dog on birds, I'd ask them some simple questions:
Where is your training permit to harass birds? OH - you don't have one....
Where were the birds you flushed? OH - I found a nest with eggs.... (area being worked would be checked)
What is the regular hunting season for woodcock? Hmm - It's closed right now....
There you go, my friend (ticket under MBCAr). "

You guys can take it as you wish. I hope you realize that what you're doing is an illegal hunting activity and at bare minimum, it isn't a practice that is any way helping the birds that we're lucky to have left.

[finsfurfeathers]

Re:"Not what I said. Again evolution is a rolling ball that we can’t change much but let’s not blame dog owners training off season for the woodcocks decline."
This is indeed not what I said, or inferred . My point is that what you are doing (intentionally hunting your dogs on closed season birds) is against the law. If you're obviously not willing to accept that you're breaking the law, then hopefully your ethics kick in and make you realize what you're doing is ,even more so ,ethically and morally wrong, given the current state that the population is in.

Sorry for the tardy reply. I contacted enforcement at both MNR and CWS to get an official response. I asked them if it is legal to intentionally train your dog on returning spring Woodcock that are in closed season. I asked them what their response would be if they encountered evidence of this while out on patrol. Here you go:

Reply from Ontario CWS Game Officer:
"If complaints are received, or evidence of such activity was encountered by officers in the field, they would assess and investigate to determine if offences under the MBCA/MBRs are occurring. As no permits exist or are issued for the activity described, the primary concern would likely be around the disturbance of nests, but may also include hunting (harass) during the closed season or without permit ".

And from an Ontario CO:
"If I came across this on patrol and it was obvious that the individual was intentionally working/training their dog on birds, I'd ask them some simple questions:
Where is your training permit to harass birds? OH - you don't have one....
Where were the birds you flushed? OH - I found a nest with eggs.... (area being worked would be checked)
What is the regular hunting season for woodcock? Hmm - It's closed right now....
There you go, my friend (ticket under MBCAr). "

You guys can take it as you wish. I hope you realize that what you're doing is an illegal hunting activity and at bare minimum, it isn't a practice that is any way helping the birds that we're lucky to have left.

Wow you better get after them CO's for dereliction of duty. Don't know of any charges ever being laid.
There is nothing ethically wrong here for if it was than I wonder what you think of this
[url=https://flic.kr/p/2hENvPi]
I'd credit you more if you pushed for a season and or limit reduction if the population was so threatened.

[finsfurfeathers]

Reply from Ontario CWS Game Officer:
"If complaints are received, or evidence of such activity was encountered by officers in the field, they would assess and investigate to determine if offences under the MBCA/MBRs are occurring. As no permits exist or are issued for the activity described, the primary concern would likely be around the disturbance of nests, but may also include hunting (harass) during the closed season or without permit ".
.

That is what we have been saying. Birds on nest is forbidden hence why mid april tends to be the pull out time. As far as permits well yes that's the proper way of doing it so at most its an administrative error. Since one can obtain a permit the act itself isn't illegal or unethical.

[QUOTE=Fenelon;1114227]
And from an Ontario CO:
"If I came across this on patrol and it was obvious that the individual was intentionally working/training their dog on birds, I'd ask them some simple questions:
Where is your training permit to harass birds? [QUOTE]
I am not harassing birds as I believe the definition of harassing cover acts that are designed to cause birds to leave an area. If I encounter birds dog is immediately called back and I go in a different direction so the minimal disturbance of the bird is not different that to which it receives on a daily bases. So if I'm not harassing birds than I'm not hunting so hunting seasons are not applicable

[QUOTE=Fenelon;1114227]
Where were the birds you flushed?[QUOTE ]

OH - I found no nest with eggs as I'm a responsible handler so endeavor to monitor bird activity to ensure minimal disturbance
[QUOTE=Fenelon;1114227]
What is the regular hunting season for woodcock? [QUOTE ]

Sept 25 it opens however usually holdoff for a week or two until their pin feathers fill out than I harvest a good 20-30 until they leave mid nov. Until than I enjoy walks with the dog
[QUOTE=Fenelon;1114227]
There you go, my friend (ticket under MBCAr). "[QUOTE]
In reality most like the response....
Seems you are a reasonable, responsible, and passionate Uplander enjoy your day and never mind them negative nellies that waste our time checking in with you guys.

[Fenelon]

Nothing wrong with posting pics of a successful fall hunt with a beautiful dog. I do much of the same, but I can't say my Lab does the job as well as your dog! We're lucky if we get ten birds in a season. The issue is intentionally hunting the birds during a closed season. Re: "population was so threatened". What part of 60% loss of the continental population, and and a further loss of another 9% per decade are you not understanding?

[Fenelon]

?? ? You're still in total denial, The simple act of you intentionally training your dog on these birds during closed season is hunting, as defined under the MBCA. Re: "administrative error" ?? There is absolutely zero chance that any issued permit from CWS is going to contravene the law. You cannot get a permit to hunt Woodcock out of season, nor would the feds issue one. The permit you would be issued would allow you to hunt "non-native" birds that are the norm for a shooting pen eg. Ring-necked Pheasant, Chukkar ore Gambels pen-reared bids.
Re: : "dog is immediately called back". I call major B.S. on that statement. I admit I don't know as much about training pointing dogs, but are you telling me that when your dog points a bird, you don't complete the intended action (to get the dog to flush the bird) by giving your dog a command to flush? I think you's end up with one very frustrated, confused dog!