What is the oldest gun you have ever shot?

[Fox]

My sons Winchester '73 .44-40. According to the serial number,It was built in the early 1880's. With a cleaning and oiling,it worked flawlessly and is still deadly accurate and in very good condition being officially appraised at $4K USD. The very elderly neighbor that gave it to him hunted with it and took a Deer with it off his back porch the year before he passed in 1985 at 96 years old. It has since been retired.

The deer must be tougher now, apparently those will not kill a modern deer

I had a chance to shoot an old 38-40, a well worn in winchester lever gun is a joy to shoot.

[Gun Nut]

The deer must be tougher now, apparently those will not kill a modern deer

I had a chance to shoot an old 38-40, a well worn in winchester lever gun is a joy to shoot.

It may not be that the deer are any tougher, it's more likely that manufactured ammunition has lower energy as it is designed to be switched between rifle and pistol, with the use of modern smokeless powder. I have a feeling with the traditional black powder charge underneath a 200 grain slug it would provide an ample force to stop a modern deer. Granted were talking a deer within 100 yards.
Modern smokeless can put quite a strain on the metal in older guns, so manufactures go out of their way to keep pressures down.

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut

[Fox]

It may not be that the deer are any tougher, it's more likely that manufactured ammunition has lower energy as it is designed to be switched between rifle and pistol, with the use of modern smokeless powder. I have a feeling with the traditional black powder charge underneath a 200 grain slug it would provide an ample force to stop a modern deer. Granted were talking a deer within 100 yards.
Modern smokeless can put quite a strain on the metal in older guns, so manufactures go out of their way to keep pressures down.

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut

They load smokeless loads to take into account old guns, they will be faster though, even with light loads, then their blackpowder predecessors. The 38-40 and 44-40 were both pistol and rifle cartridges back then and borderline for anything large but they put a lot of meat on the table within their distance restrictions. Magnumitis is a modern phenomenon, nobody back in the old days when people were poor and sustaining themselves would have gone out and used something with that much lead and powder and cost that much to shoot a little deer. Yes the buffalo guns existed but the average person had much smaller cartridges that were much less expensive to use.

[trimmer21]

They load smokeless loads to take into account old guns, they will be faster though, even with light loads, then their blackpowder predecessors. The 38-40 and 44-40 were both pistol and rifle cartridges back then and borderline for anything large but they put a lot of meat on the table within their distance restrictions. Magnumitis is a modern phenomenon, nobody back in the old days when people were poor and sustaining themselves would have gone out and used something with that much lead and powder and cost that much to shoot a little deer. Yes the buffalo guns existed but the average person had much smaller cartridges that were much less expensive to use.

"Magnumitis" is an excellent observation. You wouldn't believe the heat I took for showing up on the Moose hunt with my 30-30 Marlin until after I dropped the first Bull with one shot at 75 yds. It sure quietened them down in a hurry.

[Gun Nut]

They load smokeless loads to take into account old guns, they will be faster though, even with light loads, then their blackpowder predecessors. The 38-40 and 44-40 were both pistol and rifle cartridges back then and borderline for anything large but they put a lot of meat on the table within their distance restrictions. Magnumitis is a modern phenomenon, nobody back in the old days when people were poor and sustaining themselves would have gone out and used something with that much lead and powder and cost that much to shoot a little deer. Yes the buffalo guns existed but the average person had much smaller cartridges that were much less expensive to use.

Maybe back then, they were better shoots and didn't waste a lot of ammunition. For larger game, it was about developing killing energy. With black powder bullet speed was viewed to be max around 1500 fps depending upon barrel length, to build killing energy the reliance was on bullet mass.
The shift from round ball to conical bullets provided the opportunity to build more killing energy. Or you went to guns with a larger bore diameters so you could shoot a heaver ball. I have a couple of the older ball molds one drops .75 caliber ball, the other drop a ball .66 caliber, one my grandfather had ran around .57 caliber. Lead seem to be something that was readily available and apparently cheap. Some of the stone work joints in the Greek Parthenon had poured lead to keys to strengthen them and the Roman used it for water piping. So lead on this side of the oceans was most likely in good supply as well. When came to smaller diameter bullet the 30 WCF which sported a jacketed bullet over a smokeless powder charge, was the first to rival the killing effectiveness of the larger bore diameter black powder shooters. After Winchester develop the gun, it may have well, disappeared into oblivion if not for Marlin adopting the round and calling it the 30-30. It fit the mine set of those holding to the old fashion nomenclature for rifle. The caliber first followed by powder charge level. Two small differences: a jacketed bullet as opposed to a lead bullet and a smokeless
powder charge as opposed to a black powder charge. In that respect the .30-30 was the first modern firearm.
There were smaller diameters black powder shooter, I suspect they function on deer because they were shot at short range and those that used them were able to place their shoots effectively. But if you want kill energy with black powder the option was to raise the bullet mass. Gun & Ammo once published a table for the .40 caliber Dixie rifle with different barrel lengths. With a 48" barrel and either a 4 or 4.5 dram powder charge they got the slug to top 2400 fps. By then the recoil had reached such a merciless level no one felt like pursuing a stiffer charge.

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut

[Gun Nut]

They load smokeless loads to take into account old guns, they will be faster though, even with light loads, then their blackpowder predecessors. The 38-40 and 44-40 were both pistol and rifle cartridges back then and borderline for anything large but they put a lot of meat on the table within their distance restrictions. Magnumitis is a modern phenomenon, nobody back in the old days when people were poor and sustaining themselves would have gone out and used something with that much lead and powder and cost that much to shoot a little deer. Yes the buffalo guns existed but the average person had much smaller cartridges that were much less expensive to use.

Maybe back then, they were better shoots and didn't waste a lot of ammunition. For larger game, it was about developing killing energy. With black powder bullet speed was viewed to be max around 1500 fps depending upon barrel length, to build killing energy the reliance was on bullet mass.
The shift from round ball to conical bullets provided the opportunity to build more killing energy. Or you went to guns with a larger bore diameters so you could shoot a heaver ball. I have a couple of the older ball molds one drops .75 caliber ball, the other drop a ball .66 caliber, one my grandfather had ran around .57 caliber. Lead seem to be something that was readily available and apparently cheap. Some of the stone work joints in the Greek Parthenon had poured lead keys to strengthen them and the Roman used it for water piping. So lead on this side of the oceans was most likely in good supply as well. When it came to smaller diameter bullet the 30 WCF which sported a jacketed bullet over a smokeless powder charge, was the first to rival the killing effectiveness of the larger bore diameter black powder shooters. After Winchester develop the gun, it may have well, disappeared into oblivion if not for Marlin adopting the round and calling it the 30-30. It fit the mine set of those holding to the old fashion nomenclature for rifle. The caliber first, followed by powder charge level. Two small differences: a jacketed bullet as opposed to a lead bullet and a smokeless powder charge as opposed to a black powder charge. In that respect the .30-30 was the first modern firearm.
There were smaller diameters black powder shooter, I suspect they function on deer because they were shot at short range and those that used them were able to place their shoots effectively. But if you want kill energy with black powder the option was to raise the bullet mass. Gun & Ammo once published a table for the .40 caliber Dixie rifle with different barrel lengths. With a 48" barrel and either a 4 or 4.5 dram powder charge they got the slug to top 2400 fps. By then the recoil had reached such a merciless level no one felt like pursuing a stiffer charge.

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut

[Fox]

Maybe back then, they were better shoots and didn't waste a lot of ammunition. For larger game, it was about developing killing energy. With black powder bullet speed was viewed to be max around 1500 fps depending upon barrel length, to build killing energy the reliance was on bullet mass.
The shift from round ball to conical bullets provided the opportunity to build more killing energy. Or you went to guns with a larger bore diameters so you could shoot a heaver ball. I have a couple of the older ball molds one drops .75 caliber ball, the other drop a ball .66 caliber, one my grandfather had ran around .57 caliber. Lead seem to be something that was readily available and apparently cheap. Some of the stone work joints in the Greek Parthenon had poured lead to keys to strengthen them and the Roman used it for water piping. So lead on this side of the oceans was most likely in good supply as well. When came to smaller diameter bullet the 30 WCF which sported a jacketed bullet over a smokeless powder charge, was the first to rival the killing effectiveness of the larger bore diameter black powder shooters. After Winchester develop the gun, it may have well, disappeared into oblivion if not for Marlin adopting the round and calling it the 30-30. It fit the mine set of those holding to the old fashion nomenclature for rifle. The caliber first followed by powder charge level. Two small differences: a jacketed bullet as opposed to a lead bullet and a smokeless
powder charge as opposed to a black powder charge. In that respect the .30-30 was the first modern firearm.
There were smaller diameters black powder shooter, I suspect they function on deer because they were shot at short range and those that used them were able to place their shoots effectively. But if you want kill energy with black powder the option was to raise the bullet mass. Gun & Ammo once published a table for the .40 caliber Dixie rifle with different barrel lengths. With a 48" barrel and either a 4 or 4.5 dram powder charge they got the slug to top 2400 fps. By then the recoil had reached such a merciless level no one felt like pursuing a stiffer charge.

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut

With a rifled bore you can only push the bullet so fast, hence the limit on speed of the old all lead bullets. Black powder is also very inefficient, so they would have longer barrels to be able to burn all the powder and have the maximum velocity. People still think that this is the case with smokeless but it is a myth, you do not gain that much velocity with even a significantly longer barrel unless you are using a very over bored smokeless cartridge.

The larger bore was to be able to kill, with round balls your ballistic coefficient sucks so you shed energy fast, the 75 cal flintlock military guns were for round balls. With the invention of the Minie ball in France they could make a smaller diameter and hold the energy levels out further because of the shape. The first Minie balls were 69 cal, then they worked down to 58 for the mid 1800s and then slowly came down from that.

The 30-30 was very modern but the first smokeless cartridge adopted by any country was the 8mm Label in 1886, 9 years before the 30-30 came to be.

[Gun Nut]

With a rifled bore you can only push the bullet so fast, hence the limit on speed of the old all lead bullets. Black powder is also very inefficient, so they would have longer barrels to be able to burn all the powder and have the maximum velocity. People still think that this is the case with smokeless but it is a myth, you do not gain that much velocity with even a significantly longer barrel unless you are using a very over bored smokeless cartridge.

The larger bore was to be able to kill, with round balls your ballistic coefficient sucks so you shed energy fast, the 75 cal flintlock military guns were for round balls. With the invention of the Minie ball in France they could make a smaller diameter and hold the energy levels out further because of the shape. The first Minie balls were 69 cal, then they worked down to 58 for the mid 1800s and then slowly came down from that.

The 30-30 was very modern but the first smokeless cartridge adopted by any country was the 8mm Label in 1886, 9 years before the 30-30 came to be.

Thanks for the info on the 8mm Label, so it appears that Winchester may only have the distinction of coming up for the first modern firearm on this side of the ocean. I believe it was a Swiss inventor that came up with the first jacketed round 1883, and I knew the French had come up with a stable smokeless powder in 1884. So the French developing the 8mm Label in 1886 before Winchesters development of the 30-30 in 1891, makes good sense. Who knows Winchester may have gotten their idea for the creation of the 30-30 from the French. I'm always amused by the lag time between the development of smokeless powder and the length of time it took Britain to begin adopting smokeless powder for their .303 cartridge. Apparently they were still driving jacketed .303 bullets with black powder as late as 1888, while shortly there after cordite became fashionable.

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut

[Fox]

Thanks for the info on the 8mm Label, so it appears that Winchester may only have the distinction of coming up for the first modern firearm on this side of the ocean. I believe it was a Swiss inventor that came up with the first jacketed round 1883, and I knew the French had come up with a stable smokeless powder in 1884. So the French developing the 8mm Label in 1886 before Winchesters development of the 30-30 in 1891, makes good sense. Who knows Winchester may have gotten their idea for the creation of the 30-30 from the French. I'm always amused by the lag time between the development of smokeless powder and the length of time it took Britain to begin adopting smokeless powder for their .303 cartridge. Apparently they were still driving jacketed .303 bullets with black powder as late as 1888, while shortly there after cordite became fashionable.

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut

The 30-30 was not designed officially until 1895, the 32-40 and 38-55 were the basis for the 30-30 but smokeless itself came out of the French, the first stable and repeatable smokeless powder, which was hard to come by. That is why the 32 Special was given the twist rate it was, allowed for reloading with black powder, even though it was only available from the factory with smokeless powder.

The British were just at war all the time, they moved to semi-smokeless (cordite), which is actually artillery propellant and were still forming brass around cordite well into WWII, at least the Canadian stuff was Nitro Cellulose powder.

The first modern gun was the needle rifle in 1836 in Prussia and used in war starting in 1841, it would be amazing to be able to handle one of these.

[greatwhite]

You guy's have some nice old guns. Should post some pictures of them. I don't really have anything very old other then my mothers Savage 22 Single shot which was made in the early 40's I think.