Pointing dogs and not training to sit

[BDH]

The only issue with teaching your dog to sit prior to teaching your dog to whoa is the confusion of the dog. Usually training set ups have the dog on a lead, when you train to whoa you stop the dog with the command whoa, likewise when you train to sit the dog is stopped and with command will sit. When you use the lead to give the command the dog can get confused by the snap of the lead on the collar. . Some dogs quickly get over the sitting once stopped and understand the command whoa.... When the dog enters the field and finds a bird , the natural instinct for the dog will be to stand... Personally, I do not teach sit until the dog understands the command whoa. Whoa means stop, and as a young dog that is all I expect that dog to do. The dog when on a walk and I want him to stop and stay in place I use the command whoa.

[finsfurfeathers]

The only issue with teaching your dog to sit prior to teaching your dog to whoa is the confusion of the dog. Usually training set ups have the dog on a lead, when you train to whoa you stop the dog with the command whoa, likewise when you train to sit the dog is stopped and with command will sit. When you use the lead to give the command the dog can get confused by the snap of the lead on the collar. . Some dogs quickly get over the sitting once stopped and understand the command whoa.... When the dog enters the field and finds a bird , the natural instinct for the dog will be to stand... Personally, I do not teach sit until the dog understands the command whoa. Whoa means stop, and as a young dog that is all I expect that dog to do. The dog when on a walk and I want him to stop and stay in place I use the command whoa.

For me training "sit" and reenforcing "whoa" are dissimilar enough that never had a dog sit on point. "sit" involves a rise of the lead with a push down of the hand on the haunch. "whoa" would be more of a horizontal resistance with a long lead at a distance. I like "heel" for "stay beside me while on a walk." In the end what matters is what works for you.

[anglodrkns]

The only issue with teaching your dog to sit prior to teaching your dog to whoa is the confusion of the dog. Usually training set ups have the dog on a lead, when you train to whoa you stop the dog with the command whoa, likewise when you train to sit the dog is stopped and with command will sit. When you use the lead to give the command the dog can get confused by the snap of the lead on the collar. . Some dogs quickly get over the sitting once stopped and understand the command whoa.... When the dog enters the field and finds a bird , the natural instinct for the dog will be to stand... Personally, I do not teach sit until the dog understands the command whoa. Whoa means stop, and as a young dog that is all I expect that dog to do. The dog when on a walk and I want him to stop and stay in place I use the command whoa.

So more or less you are using whoa in place of sit? As sort of a control method to hold in place, say before crossing a street, while waiting to be fed etc?

[sabmgb]

I don't think it matters what word you use, as long as you are consistent with whatever words you use. For me STOP means stop and sit, this is the most important command to learn early. I only use stop when there is danger of her going somewhere she will get hurt.

[Shoreline]

My recommendation would be that you can absolutely teach your pointing dog to sit. However, do not use "sit" as your default command every time you're training or asking the dog to do something or if the dog isn't listening, etc. I think that's usually where the confusion comes in for the dog when you go to teach whoa. When dogs get confused they tend to offer behaviours that have been rewarded in the past. To avoid this take baby steps when teaching something new, especially Whoa training. And don't ask your dog to "sit" so often that it becomes the default for the dog when it isn't sure about something.

If this is something that you're worried about messing up than you can always wait to teach "sit" until after whoa training. Place training can often be used in lieu of asking the dog to sit.

[Cass]

So I am getting a pointing dog in a couple months and have been doing all the research I can into how to train it as it will be my first gun dog. A few times now I have come across things saying don't teach your pointing dog to sit until it is older, it will affect its point. Is there anyone who can explain this more? Or have idea's on what to teach it instead of sit as a similar command?

Well if you want to teach it something other than sit the correct answer is "whoa". But if your dog lives in the house, "sit" is an invaluable command. Sitting and pointing are 2 very different things. You'll be okay teaching it to sit. My pointing dog sits and has no problem pointing.

[BSP1]

I have no real intent on trialing the dog. I might do an NAVHDA NA test just for fun or maybe one day try the UT test but the dog is just for the family and hunting so style doesn't matter

Honestly don’t waste your time doing NAVDHA. Spend the time getting the dog on wild birds and teaching obedience.

Wild birds teach the dog. Pen raised birds which Navdha use to “ train “ with allow the dog to make mistakes a wild bird won’t tolerate. Too much training on pen raised birds isn’t good for a hunting dog. If your intent is to hunt then get it on as many wild birds as possible.

Yes you can do some training with a Navdha chapter to introduce the pup to birds, gun fire etc but that’s it.

NAVDHA doesn’t work in the real hunting world and just makes robot dogs.

I’ve seen it where a dog wins prize 1’s in UT then gets to the grouse woods and all the NAVDHA is out the window. Dog can’t handle a grouse.

Pen raised birds allow the dog to get way to close and that can spill over into hunting. Which can lead to a dog busting birds all tbe time.


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[finsfurfeathers]

Wild birds teach the dog. Pen raised birds which Navdha use to “ train “ with allow the dog to make mistakes a wild bird won’t tolerate. Too much training on pen raised birds isn’t good for a hunting dog. If your intent is to hunt then get it on as many wild birds as possible.

Yes you can do some training with a Navdha chapter to introduce the pup to birds, gun fire etc but that’s it.

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Absolutely true wild birds finish a dog. Thing is round here just not enough wild birds to work and the ones available give even good dogs a challenge. Wish there was some sort of high fence operation (1000 plus acres) were birds are always out would make a good substitute. If I was getting a pup in January the year would probably look like this. Jan-March basic training sit stay come yada yada. March to the fall walking in cover, bird handling intro and basic work with pen birds. Fall time to put it in overdrive book time off work as much as you can to work woodcock keep in mine you'll be working on finishing every contact than hunting. Once the woodcock are gone than work on grouse ( pray we have a decent hatch).

[BSP1]

Absolutely true wild birds finish a dog. Thing is round here just not enough wild birds to work and the ones available give even good dogs a challenge. Wish there was some sort of high fence operation (1000 plus acres) were birds are always out would make a good substitute. If I was getting a pup in January the year would probably look like this. Jan-March basic training sit stay come yada yada. March to the fall walking in cover, bird handling intro and basic work with pen birds. Fall time to put it in overdrive book time off work as much as you can to work woodcock keep in mine you'll be working on finishing every contact than hunting. Once the woodcock are gone than work on grouse ( pray we have a decent hatch).

I’m not saying to not do any pen raised bird work but there is a limit to it and if too much work with pen raised birds is done it can do more harm than good. Specially when they start to catch the birds which can easily happen.

Even a few wild birds a week can teach a dog. Yes it can be hard to get dogs on wild birds but with some effort they can be found. The first season with a pup on wild birds is really just a learning season. They will teach a dog fast and with the right foundation like obedience etc.


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[BSP1]

Absolutely true wild birds finish a dog. Thing is round here just not enough wild birds to work and the ones available give even good dogs a challenge. Wish there was some sort of high fence operation (1000 plus acres) were birds are always out would make a good substitute. If I was getting a pup in January the year would probably look like this. Jan-March basic training sit stay come yada yada. March to the fall walking in cover, bird handling intro and basic work with pen birds. Fall time to put it in overdrive book time off work as much as you can to work woodcock keep in mine you'll be working on finishing every contact than hunting. Once the woodcock are gone than work on grouse ( pray we have a decent hatch).

Navda training doesn’t allow dogs to learn to relocate. It teaches the dog to stay still on point to wait for the hunter to arrive. Grouse don’t wait around, specially educated ones. For a hunting dog you want a dog to relocate on its own. After all the dog knows when a bird is there or not


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