8 mth Lab growling

[400bigbear]

It has nothing to do with being flexible Welsh but why would I look at something different when my lifetime of experience has a proven track record . I would laugh at you anywhere, anytime too . LOL

BTW . All animals have a pecking order with each other of the same species or interaction with other species if they live together . BW even gave you a realistic and prime example of this when his lhama got cubby . They test you at times . If they one up you your done for especially with an animal the size of a horse . He couldn't out muscle his lama but that little cuff at the head brought the animal to attention . BW established his dominance and that he's boss and top of the pecking order .In his case this would be herd behaviour . Dogs are the same only pack behaviour . In the end though its relative . If I stand over my dogs dish , it's mine . That is me letting him know I'm the alpha and he only eats after me or when I say or move away . That's pack behavior .


TD

[terrym]

Pack mentality and standing pretty well affects most living creatures including humans.

[krakadawn]

I think what is really pertinent in any discussion is your personal background experience with dogs as in what kind, pet only, competition, hunting only....whatever.
YD has been clear with his background with sled dogs. His comments can be put in context with the very nature of that sport,their breeding and the specific training .

I'm not sure about the rest of the regular folks who comment. Maybe you compete, maybe you don't. Maybe you breed, maybe you don't etc etc.

I honestly can not attribute a lot of reliability in some comments when you know nothing about where an individual developed his view from.....just a personal view or experiential time over many years. I also believe unless you are in a competitive environment you more than likely are missing more than you know.

I am stating the above as I believe this is why some conflict arises regarding certain discussions like the current one.

Perhaps individuals need to state their experience base and experience in what context because I sure wouldn't attribute much credit unless I had more knowledge about where the opinion is coming from.

[Sharon]

Gentlemen : differences of opinion need to be started in a new thread. They are of little help to the original OP. This isn't the off topic section.

[krakadawn]

Sharon, I posted the above to actually help the OP get a handle about where advice may be coming from whether it's a newbie to dogs trying to sort through training his first dog or someone who has been on the planet for a half century or so. And in that time has ventured into the competitive arena in some aspect.

BB just replied to give some background as well.

I think one would answer the OP's question differently depending on whether his experience was more with the pack environment as in sled dogs, foxhounds etc or more solitary training as in retrievers as an example. I mentioned earlier about a 'gem' in one of Welch's post around indirect pressure. I see no one else picked up on that which tells me more than likely it is not well understood as a teaching tool to deal with many displayed behaviours. It is powerful and is quite contrary to several direct pressure alternatives to this situation.

In the end I believe there are certainly various alternatives for the OP depending on the individual's understanding around learning theory of dogs and his(her) ability to carry it out especially in regard to the timing in a given approach.

[welsh]

1. The fact that an animal bites, or growls, or barks, or crowds you, does not mean it is trying to establish a position in a pecking order; it is simply doing something undesirable.
2. The fact that you correct an undesirable behaviour, by whatever means, does not mean that you have established a position in a pecking order; you have simply punished undesirable behaviour.
3. The suggestion that the pecking order concept does not apply and is unhelpful does not mean you don't correct problems. Obviously, you must: train the dog in front of you.
4. The suggestion that there is no pack relationship, as people conventionally understand it, does not meant that the relationship between dog and handler is not fundamental to everything you do. It is.

This is not a problem specific to hunting dogs and I think YD's experience is as applicable as anyone's; I disagree with him for reasons already explained. As for me, I think it is known around here that my current dog is my first hunting dog, but I have had dogs for 20 years. No, I didn't just fall off the turnip truck. I have had my share of dogs, made my share of mistakes, and learned from them. But I am getting tired of being used as a punching bag by one particular member, on just about every thread.

Returning to the OP, as I said before my answer is "get help." The fact that the dog's behaviour seems to be entirely random suggests either that something is quite wrong, or that the OP is simply not able to read the situation. Either way, the best thing to do is to get someone else to look at things. We all benefit from the advice and experience of others.

[yellow dog]

Sharon, I posted the above to actually help the OP get a handle about where advice may be coming from whether it's a newbie to dogs trying to sort through training his first dog or someone who has been on the planet for a half century or so. And in that time has ventured into the competitive arena in some aspect.

BB just replied to give some background as well.

I think one would answer the OP's question differently depending on whether his experience was more with the pack environment as in sled dogs, foxhounds etc or more solitary training as in retrievers as an example. I mentioned earlier about a 'gem' in one of Welch's post around indirect pressure. I see no one else picked up on that which tells me more than likely it is not well understood as a teaching tool to deal with many displayed behaviours. It is powerful and is quite contrary to several direct pressure alternatives to this situation.

In the end I believe there are certainly various alternatives for the OP depending on the individual's understanding around learning theory of dogs and his(her) ability to carry it out especially in regard to the timing in a given approach.

Kraka I picked up on it and I am sure many others as well but i was hoping you would elaborate. I waited and waited........so i got up grabbed a coffee came back and still no explanation to the little gem. I really wanted to know your experience with this. I noticed at the bottom of this thread you were reading but still made no comments. Please jump in and make your comments known before the thread goes completely sour. Also good morning.

[krakadawn]

Sorry YD, I was out airing dogs this mild and muggy Ga morning.
Since we don't have first hand knowledge of exactly what this behaviour really looks like I would reticent to describe an approach and cause another issue for the OP. No question that the understanding of pack mentality can lead to solutions. Usually a human response comes in the form of direct pressure. Direct pressure has been used for many year teaching skill acquisition and more so in trying to eliminate a negative behaviour.

Here's an example:
I'm trying to teach a dog to angle into the water running a tight line down the shore. Most dogs either run the shore or square the entry and go into the water. Direct pressure is to punish the dog when he makes the mistake, haul him in and try again, most likely he won't understand and will repeat the same mistake only to receive direct pressure again in the form of punishment....sometimes a long process as the dog cannot relate the punishment to the behaviour the handler wants.
Using indirect pressure the dog would be whistle sat and given a cast into the water. Likely dog will still make the mistake so whistle sit, command here and nick on the sit. The dog understands what the nick is for and tries to be more compliant for the command. Here the punishment is for a known command(sit) but carries over for the other action.(and this is the case for the OP)

So back to the OP's question...I would teach solid basics...we all know these. I would use the collar to reinforce taught commands(not to teach).In a growling situation you might 'roll ' him if your timing is good because if it isn't then you used direct pressure and dog does not understand leading to another problem. Indirect pressure would be to stand up , heal dog and nick on sit command. The power of indirect pressure is immense with training retrievers in refining performance of high level skills.

I'm sure people have used this in their training but may not have referenced it in these terms....I'll bet you've used this technique also.

[welsh]

With respect to basic problem behaviour in dogs -- guarding "their" things, etc. -- there are well established indirect approaches that are used by various trainers whether they subscribe to dominance theory or not.

You make the dog wait to go out the front door. You don't let him go up the stairs until you do. You make him sit and wait for his food. You make him sit before you pet him. Etc. Etc. By doing these things you fix problems in the relationship with the dog without having to confront aggressive behaviour directly and possibly provoke escalating aggression.

Responding to some unwanted behaviour by immediately putting the dog on command and making him sit for you, rather than rolling him, is another example. I like doggy pushups: sit - lie down - sit - lie down - sit - lie down - sit. Do you remember who I am now, private?

[400bigbear]

I get a bit confused with indirect pressure and direct pressure Krakadawn but understand the concept because I have used both just depending on the situation . Actually I think I always have just not realizing it enough to explain it because correction to me is always correction .

Back to basics I have always done if that's what it takes to clean a dog up . When I started many years ago with my labs we didn't have the option of an e-collar . I don't have alot of experience with one although just knowing and understanding behaviour could add it to my arsenal . I do believe they are a bad tool in the wrong hands though .

Here is one of my own scenarios that I had issues with my lab till the last year she hunted and am looking forward to how you would have dealt with it and do you consider it direct or indirect pressure . Misty had an issue every year on opening day to break to the first shot and fall of the bird . I always worked her before the day and she was steady as a rock just not then or after if I didn't use the correction . I would tie her to something solid and like always she would bust but when she would hit the end of the anchored rope at full tilt she would flip herself at times . After that bust she would be steady for the rest of the year and at most require just a word or low pop on the whistle if she got ansy . . How would you have handled that Krakadawn and do you consider this direct or indirect pressure ?

TD