A Tundra Swan Season In Ontario

[Buddy Boy]

Hello Guys,

A quick response to your comments:

1) Duck Slayer ... I agree with you that a mandatory "Swan Hunter Course" may turn some potential swan hunters off especially if there is a cost to take it. I was just expressing my personal opinion regarding Dyth Bringer's suggestion for a "hands on" course ... I would take it and I would pay to take it.

Check out the free Utah "on line" swan hunter course (http://www.utah-hunt.com/utswancourse/) and let me know what you think.

2) Great White ... I agree with you that some (probably most) potential swan hunters would accept a free mandatory "on line" course but some have already mentioned the potential cheating that could occur with it and Dyth Bringer has mentioned the limitations of such a course.

Check out the free Utah "on line" swan hunter course (http://www.utah-hunt.com/utswancourse/) and let me know what you think.

Thanks again to all of you for your interest.

Jerome

[Dead Ringer]

Jerome,

My take on the Utah course (just aced it):

- not enough ID questions. All examples were straightforward. What about a bird locked up coming into the decoys? What about a juvenile? What about a mixed flock? Low light silhouette? I think you see where I'm going with this: more questions that replicate real-life scenarios like some of the Delta duck quizzes http://www.deltawaterfowl.org/quizzes.html

- Questions too easy in general. Any coincidence that I too got 100% on my first try with very limited background on the subject? This is going to be some super special opportunity, you'd darn well better prove that you got the concepts. The questions (all multiple choice) were a lot of "all of the above", "which is false", type questions. The only question that required any thinking was the one about the timing of the migration. Not saying it needs to be the SATs, but maybe some fill in the blanks, or even "select all that apply". Maybe some questions that apply reasoning instead of just memorization. Heck, ID of a swan in flight will require reasoning, not just memorization.

- I wish they impressed upon the students better the importance of reducing even legal take of trumpeter swans. Show how much effort is being put into their conservation. It read like the course was written by a hunter. Us (hunters) v them (trumpeter people and antis). I'd rather the hunter be made to feel a personal responsibility for conservation. Maybe have trumpeter person write about why it is so important to limit their harvest. A few slides about the $, time and science being applied to protect trumpeters. Put an onus on the hunter to not just shoot a trumpeter for his wall or b/c he was too excited to wait for a positive ID. Sorry, but I don't think they made it feel enough like a bad thing to shoot a trumpeter.

- Are we going to measure heads here?

- Is a mute harvest going to be included or will that have to be a separate deal?

- Are there migration corridors/dates that will help reduce trumpeter harvest?

Maybe you already answered some of these, but it's hard to track.

[jaycee]

Maybe have trumpeter person write about why it is so important to limit their harvest.

I have just today found out that after 30 years of breeding , tagging and releasing Trumpeter Swans , there is only a total of 800 in the province.
This info came from The Trumpeter Swan Coalition group .

To even have one or two shot accidentally by hunters because of miss identification , would seriously put a very big dent into all the hard work done by the people involved in increasing their numbers.

[Buddy Boy]

Hello Guys,

A quick response to your comments:

1) Dead Ringer ... thank you for your detailed review of the Utah "Swan Hunter Course" which supported much of what Fenelon had previously said about it. I agree that it is hard (impossible) to fail when you can just keep on guessing until you get the right answer before moving on to the next question. Thank you for the link to the Delta Waterfowl "waterfowl identification course".

As for your questions:

a) According to the management plan some form of monitoring is required in every jurisdiction that has a Tundra Swan harvest ... the CWS would have to decide on the type of monitoring.

b) The "Proposal to Remove Mute Swans from the List of Protected Species" that I submitted in October of 2010 (see separate thread) was originally suggested to me by Dr. S. Petrie with his support in January of 2010 (as previously stated), the Ontario Waterfowl Advisory Committee (OWAC) supported my proposal at their November 2010 meeting and the CWS agreed to look further into the implementation of this proposal. I was advised recently by a Delta Waterfowl representative that discussions are currently taking place between the CWS and the MNR regarding this proposal. Furthermore (as previously stated) I was advised that it will be up to the individual to correctly identify a Mute Swan from a Trumpeter Swan from a Tundra Swan ... so I am a bit concerned about that since anyone apparently will be permitted to shoot them. I believe that it would be better to have a Tundra Swan season and then only those "waterfowlers" who have a tag could shoot Mute Swans as a bonus ... just my opinion.

c) There may have to be a "No Swan Hunt Zone" in some areas as has been discussed within this thread depending upon the "public discussions" that the CWS/MNR would be required to have before a Tundra Swan season would be granted to Ontario as per the management plan.

2) Jaycee ... like Dead Ringer said "this is going to be some super special opportunity" so your point is well taken. Do you have a link to The Trumpeter Swan Coalition Group that you could post for the other readers ... thank you for the information.

I have had some preliminary discussions with representatives of The Trumpeter Swan Society in which I have indicated a willingness to eventually contribute $1,000.00 annually from The Dr. Jerome Katchin Waterfowl Foundation in perpetuity to assist them with their goals. However we have to obtain a "charitable status" for them from the Canadian Revenue Agency before I could do this.

Thanks again to all of you for your interest.

Jerome

[jaycee]

2) Jaycee ... like Dead Ringer said "this is going to be some super special opportunity" so your point is well taken. Do you have a link to The Trumpeter Swan Coalition Group that you could post for the other readers ... thank you for the information.

I spoke directly with Liz Benneian via phone, who is involved heavily with the Trumpeter Swan Coalition in Hamilton, her phone number is listed on their website which you can find by "googling " it.

[Gadwall]

I posted this over in DR's "waterfowl course" thread and was asked to move it over here to where it may be more appropriate in case anyone would like to argue or support the positions:

"I defend the right for Canadians to use their portion of the Tundra harvest instead of giving it to the U.S. like we have been and I applaud Jerome for trying to make this happen ... but ... for me, if there is a course I will not be a swan hunter. I have not hunted turkeys and have no interest in it, mostly due to the course needed and the high cost of a tag to shoot just one (I can buy one cheaper), I guess I have had it with overregulation which is mostly designed for the government to make more $$ off our recreation.

With that said ... I tend to be a close to home hunter and do not travel much ... and we now see almost no Tundras in my area, but hundred's if not thousands of Mutes within 40km of where I live, so, if we are able to get these aggressive, invasive species off the protected list, I will be VERY VERY disappointed if they make us do a course to shoot a potentially non-regulated species, that just seems wrong to me ... for my own purposes I would like to press for the mutes to be taken off the protected list (shoot when you want as many as you want), and for other Canadian hunters I really would like to see Canada get their share of the Tundra harvest. But please ... no extra courses for either."

I expect if we get an Ontario Tundra swan harvest, we would have to buy a tag worth just one swan ... with this tag could be supplied at least written information on how to identify the three different species of swan and what you can and cannot shoot, similar to the card of info we each receive with our bird stamp each year ... it, of course, would be up to the individual to read and understand the information, just like it is up to the student to pay attention in a course, but we all know some float through and just do enough to pass then forget it. I would prefer information with the "swan stamp" over a maditory course.

[Buddy Boy]

Hello Guys,

A quick response to your comments:

1) Jaycee ... thank you for the contact in Hamilton.

2) Gadwall ... thank you for re-posting your comments in this thread. I noticed that you added a little about an "identification card" that would come with the Tundra Swan tag ... what a great idea! This way everyone who buys a Tundra Swan tag (there will be a tag as per my original proposal and confirmed in the CWS Tundra Swan Season Assessment) will have a basic identification card with (I am adding this to your idea) references as to where to find additional information. Furthermore a free "on line" CWS identification course could be provided emphasizing the need to be extremely careful of what swan you shoot as previously suggested.

Thanks again to all of you for your interest.

Jerome

[Doug]

I have just today found out that after 30 years of breeding , tagging and releasing Trumpeter Swans , there is only a total of 800 in the province.
This info came from The Trumpeter Swan Coalition group .

To even have one or two shot accidentally by hunters because of miss identification , would seriously put a very big dent into all the hard work done by the people involved in increasing their numbers.

I am going to have to change my opinion on the matter. So, we are losing 'our allotment' of tags for Tundra Swans, the potential damage that a hunt could have on the fragile Trumpeter Swan through accidental kills is not worth the risk. You spoke of a $1000 donation from your fund, so long as you can get a tax receipt... big deal! What does $1000/yr accomplish... jack squat!

Hunters are the best conversationalists... acknowledging that there maybe accidental kills that could cause damage to a delicate population, and then to offer a token small amount of money to smooth things over is wrong.

[Buddy Boy]

Hello Guys,

This will be a special response to Doug's comments (Post # 98) but something that the rest of you should know as well.

1) Your comments regarding the Trumpeter Swan population are inaccurate:

a) If you read the CWS Tundra Swan Season Assessment you would have noticed that the sub-population of Trumpeter Swans that the Ontario Trumpeter Swans belong to had a 135% increase in size over the last five (5) years. By comparison the Interior Population of Trumpeter Swans (that this sub-population belongs to) had about a 100% increase in size. Consequently I do not believe that we are dealing with a "fragile" species or a "delicate" population and apparently neither does the CWS according to their assessment.

b) Furthermore as I have previously stated the USFWS is now considering opening up additional Tundra Swan seasons within the eastern United States that may involve an incidental harvest of Trumpeter Swans from the above mentioned sub-population of Trumpeter Swans that the Ontario Trumpeter Swans belong to (as I understood the report).

c) We already currently have an incidental harvest of swans in Ontario (as recently confirmed to me) and consequently I agree that having an official limited Tundra Swan season in Ontario would serve to enlighten the general waterfowling community. However we could have a "No Swan Hunt Zone" in some areas to protect our local Trumpeter Swan population.

d) Please also consider that the aboriginal people in Canada may hunt any swan, any time without any limits under their "subsistence" harvest ... yet both the Tundra Swan and Trumpeter Swan populations continue to grow.

2) Your comments about my level of financial support are inaccurate:

a) If you read my letter of March 01, 2014 to Mr. J. Hughes (Head of Population Management, CWS) carefully then you would have noticed that beyond my initial $10,000.00 grant to help implement a Tundra Swan season in Ontario and an additional $4,000.00 annual grant for twenty (20) years (another $80,000.00) to help monitor the Tundra Swan harvest in Ontario I stated:

My additional two (2) pledges of $5,000.00 for the implementation of a Tundra Swan Recreational Harvest in the Provinces of Manitoba and Saskatchewan will be addressed in a subsequent letter as an additional (projected) $1,000.00 will be available at the end of 2015, $2,000.00 at the end of 2016, $3,000.00 at the end of 2017, $4,000.00 at the end of 2018, $5,000.00 at the end of 2019 and $6,000.00 at the end of 2020 for a total of $21,000.00 then continuing at $6,000.00 per year in perpetuity based upon Part 1 of the Financial Plan for The Dr. Jerome Katchin Waterfowl Foundation. I will disclose Part 2 of the Financial Plan to you and other interested parties at a later date.

b) The $1,000.00 per year that I had referred to was the minimum that would be available to The Trumpeter Swan Society out of the $6,000.00 per year that would be available by the end of 2020 to the various waterfowl organizations that support "waterfowl" hunting.

c) Furthermore you had only considered (misconsidered) the financial resources outlined under Part 1 of the Financial Plan without any knowledge of what was to come under Part 2 of the Financial Plan.

d) You were in the past, still are in the present and will remain in the future unaware of my Estate Plan for the various waterfowl organizations that support "waterfowl" hunting.

e) You asked what does $1,000.00 per year accomplish and then abruptly stated "jack squat". Well The Trumpeter Swan Society was very grateful for the financial contribution that I made last year to help them host the Fifth International Swan Symposium that was held in Maryland last month.

f) You referred to my $1,000.00 per year (which I remind you was the minimum that would be available to them) as a "token" and as a "small amount of money" so perhaps you would be willing to financially help The Trumpeter Swan Society with a corresponding "token" ... nothing significant ... just a "small amount of money".

3) The Trumpeter Swan Society has a very good Swan Identification brochure on their web site that you can print off ... maybe this brochure could be included with the purchase of a Tundra Swan tag.

Thanks again to all of you for your interest.

Jerome

[jaycee]

Tell us why , the CWS, MNR, and the LPWA, and DU, are not very receptive to your proposal as I have found out .?