Alternative to Force Fetch

[Sudsee]

I am not trying to rock the boat, I know FF is a valuable tool and can be done several different ways and is very effective. I found this interesting article and am trying it on my spaniel and having great success with it. I know it is not completely the same as force fetch at all but it does have some of the ideas and I am getting the results I am looking for. The articles are "Delivery to Hand: Parts I, II, III" by Mike Stewart at Wildrose Kennels. I am about at the midpoint and I see steady progression as we go. I wish I had have read this when he was real young.

[krakadawn]

Sorry Sudsee, the name of the kennel tells the story.

There is no alternative to FF. There are some strategies that help provide a better hold and in time may be acceptable for delivering a bird to hand but this ignores the intrinsic value of the process.

Be careful about where certain ideas come from.

[vom Dufenshmirtz]

sudsee, you will be downright bullied here questioning FF.
In the UK they don't FF and seem to be quite happy about it. Remember where spaniels comes from....
You could go on UK sites if you're interested in more info and like minded trainers e.g.
http://www.gundogtrainingforum.co.uk...wforum.php?f=6

[krakadawn]

Hey Vom, I don't see giving quality advice as 'bullying', folks are certainly free to follow any direction to their heart's content around FF or any other aspect of training.

[Cass]

I also encourage you to check out some UK sites and especially forums. Look through the discussions and you'll see a common problem/thread...

[vom Dufenshmirtz]

Hey Vom, I don't see giving quality advice as 'bullying', folks are certainly free to follow any direction to their heart's content around FF or any other aspect of training.

Not looking for a fight and wasn't referring to your post specifically, however this is NA mantra - FF, FF, FF. It works for most, this NA way. There's another way. Internet advice on dog training is futile

[welsh]

Proponents of FF will point out that the value of FF goes beyond simple retrieving. North American retriever training stresses the concept that the dog will learn to remove pressure by doing a desired behaviour. Force fetch is one of the ways this whole concept is introduced. The training method undeniably works.

Essentially, people stick with what works and this is going to be especially true in the trial world. Who wants to invest all that money and all those hours in an experiment to see if some alternative training concept will work? North American retriever trainers are training to NA standards using methods that have been proven to work in that context. When someone comes along and suggests taking a step out of the learning chain of a proven program ... well, people are justifiably leery of that.

On the other hand, I know of lots of people training spaniels who have done without FF. Many people seem to do a "forceless force fetch," which is pared down to teaching a proper hold. Their dogs retrieve just fine. The spaniels are of course working to a different standard. Retrieving tasks are simple and in a trial the handler won't handle the dog onto a downed bird, for example.

Regarding Mike Stewart, mentioning him in Kraka's earshot will be like waving a red flag at a bull, I think.

I like to think I'm fairly broad-minded re training approaches, and I have a copy of Stewart's book. A large part of it seems to revolve around training your Lab to become the kind of dog that will impress your buddies who all order stuff from the Orvis catalogue: steadiness and gentlemanly behaviour trump drive. And Stewart doesn't endear himself to anyone because he spends a lot of time putting other training methods down. You don't make yourself popular by walking into a room and saying, "Everyone here is doing it wrong." But not everything he says should be dismissed out of hand ... that's a whole 'nother discussion.

[Labber]

WildRose is great at marketing.
There is hold, and delivery to hand, and there is Force fetch.
If all you want is delivery to hand, then have at it.
Force fetch serves a purpose. I don't believe that all dogs need to be force fetched.
If the owner of the dog is happy with the dog bringing the bird back to his feet most of the time then good enough.

The problem arrives when the dog decides he doesn't want to play by the bosses rules.
If the dog isn't force fetched, the hunter has no recourse to demand that the dog deliver to hand.
It's the hunters dog. It's his choice.

[Sharon]

Excellent post.

[krakadawn]

I agree and you will look long and hard to find anything Wild Rose puts on the ground that is competitive in NA retriever trials. What he is good at is putting the best down. This is hardly worth the discussion and to the contrary....quite a joke in the retriever world.

Best to reread Labber's post.