This is great information for any present or future dog owners

[Joshcat]

On our website we always provide written articles to help the upcoming dog folks and this is some information I wanted to share.

What Do Hunt Test and Trial Bloodlines Really Mean?

The answer is simple; there are a lot of breeders out there, but how many of them are constantly testing their dogs to make sure that they continue to “better the breed?” The best way to ensure you are breeding highly intelligent, very healthy, trainable, biddable and capable dogs is to train them for the ultimate tests; hunt tests and field trials. After all, the qualities most necessary to be successful in advanced hunt tests or field trials are technically the same qualities anyone would want in their household pet! We want animals that are very easy to train, dogs that are very healthy with minimal history of major health issues and at the end of the day as hunters we really would prefer a dog that has plenty of drive and desire to work in the field. As much as some people do not want to hear it, the hunt test and trial bloodlines are dedicated to producing such a dog, 100% of the time! Contrary to popular opinion, this IS WHAT YOU WANT.
Keep this in mind; just because your dog is out of hunt test or field trial bloodlines, it does not mean that you have to participate in hunt tests or compete in field trials (although I must encourage you to explore the idea!). It just means that your dog has been carefully bred to exemplify certain qualities that have been tested repeatedly over the years to ensure things like health, temperament and performance. I would like to discuss further what I mean by “hunt test or field trial bloodlines” so that you understand some of the differences between a gundog, hunt test or field trial dog. Most of us are happy to just have a dog that brings our birds back, so what more could you possibly want? Right? Let’s look at how we hunt test or trial trainers view a “hunting retriever”.
Obedience:

It is no secret that obedience is the most important foundation in any hunting dog. However, I do not think most people understand how important, and to what level your dog’s obedience should be to optimize performance in the field. To some, a dog that can sit at the end of the duck blind all day without disrupting other hunters is exceptional. I’m not going to tell you this is untrue, but I will say that a hunting retriever should be rock steady at the “sit” position. Even if 5 hunters are emptying their guns at a group of ducks or geese, that dog should sit, and mark the falling birds. I see too many hunters that are satisfied with a dog that breaks for the retrieve once guns start firing at birds. Before I even mention the fact that a dog would fail a hunt test or trial for breaking early, this is simply an unsafe hunting practice. Why would we allow our dog to get out in the line of fire as we are still shooting? What if someone at the other end of the duck blind continues to shoot at crippled ducks without realizing your dog has already left the blind in route to a retrieve? Did you know that a dog not truly steady in the “sit” position tends to be a much weaker marking dog? Meaning that a dog who fidgets, creeps (anxiously leans forward in anticipation to retrieve) or gets too excited as birds are falling (marks) ultimately ends up not being able to focus on each mark to enhance memory and the ability to pick each retrieve up cleanly. In the end, the most basic command of all, “sit”, is probably the most important ingredient to success for any retriever, whether a gundog, hunt test dog or field trial dog.
In the uplands, a strong foundation in obedience is still critical for a hunting retriever. It begins with teaching your dog about quartering, and staying within a reasonable range (distance) from you the handler. As we all know, a dog that ranges too far (a flushing dog, or pointer that is not steady) can ruin a day’s hunt pretty quick! An area that tends to separate a “gundog” from an advanced hunt test or trial retriever in upland bird hunting is the concept of steadiness. Steadiness refers to how the dog conducts himself or herself once they locate a bird. Do they just flush the bird up in a fast, aggressive manner? This would be considered a “gundog” type of flush, which is great if that is what you are after. Many folks prefer a dog that can flush a bird but then sit (maybe on a whistle or verbal “sit” command) to the flush of the bird. This does a few things; 1. Keeps the dog in a safe position as shots get fired; if the bird takes a low flight a dog that sits to the flush will not jump up in the line of any shots. 2. Allows the dog to sit and effectively mark a shot bird (same concept as the duck blind mentioned previously). This is a great example of the difference between a “gundog” and an advanced level retriever in the uplands. Which one do you prefer? My honest answer is that I like a dog in the middle. I do believe in “sit to flush” for the reasons just mentioned, however once the shot takes place I do not necessarily mind a dog that breaks for the retrieve. By this time, the bird is far enough away, and usually high enough to safely shoot at, but also allows the dog to get a jump on the bird in case it is wounded and starts to run.
With a little more training (I don’t mean to make it sound easy, it is definitely work), there are several benefits to training our retrievers to a higher level in both upland and waterfowl performance. If you notice, obedience in both examples was a tremendous factor.
Marking:

Marking applies to all types of bird hunting, and is a major factor in any hunt test or field trial. I bring marking into the equation because I think marking is one of the most misunderstood concepts in all of retriever training, regardless of whether you are after a gundog or competition dog. Once again, we have created a gap between a common gundog and the hunt test or trial retrievers and I think this is a mistake. By definition, marking is a dog’s ability to watch an object (dummy, bird, etc.) fall at various distances, in various conditions in a steady, deliberate manner. Whether it is a single mark, or multiple, the dog in theory should be able to clearly identify where the object fell, regardless of terrain, cover, obstacles or any other factor that can influence their perception and then cleanly retrieve the object with minimal “hunting” involved. Of course, they may need to hunt for the bird or dummy within the area of the fall, but for the sake of a simple explanation, we want them to pin point where the bird is and retrieve it. While I understand that hunting marks tend to be closer distances (at least most of the time), we should all want dogs capable of marking at longer distances (beyond 100 yards, and possibly 200 + yards).
I hear hunters tell me “I don’t need a dog that can mark 200 yards”. Conceptually I understand your point, but why wouldn’t you want a dog capable of marking, distinguishing between distances and having the ability to not let cover, terrain or obstacles throw the off target? It will only help you in the field to have a true marking retriever, in either upland or waterfowl situations. My point is that even a gundog should be trained properly on marking as if they were going to run an advanced level hunt test, you never know when a bird will sail in the wind or float down river over 100 yards! It is a mistake to only train marks in your hand with hand thrown dummies or birds, I promise you will see a situation in the blind or in the field where your dog needs to mark beyond a hand-thrown distance and you will see them struggle. My favorite analogy to training a dog how to mark is from Bill Hillman, an icon in retriever training. He referenced the concept of target shooting; shooting a metal trash can lid with a BB gun. If you start at 5 feet away and shoot the lid 500 times, chances are you will be very successful, probably 100% accuracy. Now back up 5 or 10 feet and shoot 500 more times. Even at this distance, you will more than likely hit the target every time, and if you miss, it will not be often. Through this process, your eyes, your mind and even your muscle memory is starting to gage distance, angles and your overall shooting technique. Dogs are no different! With young dogs we start close, make it fun, and set them up for success. Over time (key word “Time”; don’t rush!), we begin to increase distances, or introduce obstacles such as cover, terrain, water, or anything that can change the view for the dog. At some point your dog becomes very comfortable marking single and multiple falls in all sorts of distance and conditions. I don’t care what your goal is for the dog, a strong marking dog is necessary for success!
Force Fetch:

The Force Fetch discussion is very common on two levels; should we force fetch our dogs and what method(s) should be used to force fetch our dogs? Can you guess which discussion is more popular with the common hunter versus the hunt test or trial participant? “My dog retrieves naturally, I don’t need force fetch” is something I’ve heard plenty of over the years. Of course it is your choice on whether you force fetch your dog or not, and I would never criticize anyone for not doing so. I will tell you though, force fetch is intended for much more than just “retrieving”. Do you plan on teaching your dog to run nice blind retrieves in a straight deliberate manner? Would you like the ability to handle your dog to birds in the field? Force fetch is a great foundation that leads to lining drills, pile work and the ability to run blind retrieves; all of which makes for a much most enjoyable hunting experience with your dog.
There are other methods of training that do not encompass force fetching, and there are certainly people who are successful with them! I respect these methods, and encourage anyone to look into them so long as they are training their dog to become better hunting companions or competition dogs.
Blind Retrieves:

Like marking, there is a desired standard for how a highly trained retriever should run a blind retrieve. In the retriever game, we are striving for a dog that runs a straight line, regardless of the situation. This is accomplished typically by a strong obedience foundation, introduction to marks and retrieving concepts, force fetch, pile work, line drills and various types of blind retrieve drills such as t-drill, pattern blinds, walk-out blinds and eventually cold blinds. After force fetch we begin working on pile drills, that is, a pile of dummies or bumpers in the yard that we teach the dog to identify and run to on command to retrieve. Using the force fetch training, we begin by using the command “fetch” to teach the dog to go to that pile that he sees right in front of him and retrieve a bumper, then return to the handler while holding the bumper in his mouth. The dog then heels on your side (right or left) with the bumper in his mouth and sits (it is so nice having a dog that will retrieve and hold the object at your side until you remove it!). Over time you transition from the “fetch” command to the “back” command. As you increase distance, and continue the concept of force (adding pressure to make sure the dog does what it is asked to do), your dog eventually learns that “back” means to go forward in a straight line (the direction you are facing) towards a bird or dummy. Of course I am generalizing and skipping several stages of the training process, however I think this illustrates the concept of force fetch and how it transitions to blind retrieves. If the dog doesn’t understand that a retrieve is not a request, it is a command, then blind retrieves become more difficult, if not impossible.
Whether you are an upland hunter, waterfowl hunter or a competitor, blind retrieves will arise in the field. You may flush a group of pheasants or quail, resulting in downed birds (hopefully) all over the field that the dog did not mark or see. It sure comes in handy to be able to run blind retrieves and harvest all of your birds. In the duck or goose blind, the same thing can occur. You may shoot at a group of birds that results in downed birds in several areas. The dog may not have marked them all, and you can easily send a dog on a blind to get all of your birds. Of course in an advanced level hunt test or trial, marks and blind retrieves are what the event is structured on, and judged accordingly. Once again, for those hunters who claim they do not need an advanced handling retriever, my guess is that you have never hunted with one! Little things such as running straight lines on blind retrieves, holding a bird until inside the duck boat or all the way back to you in the field (results of force fetch) can be a much more efficient and pleasant method of hunting!
In order to train our dogs to this level, I would argue it is best to make sure we have dogs out of genetics proven capable of doing so. Again, buying a dog out of outstanding hunt test and field trial genetics does not mean you cannot have a dog that displays a great temperament and is a perfect family dog. It also does not mean that you must train for hunt tests or field trials! What it means is that your dog has the best foundation to start with, and can be trained to an advanced level.
At the very least, training a dog to an advanced level will help you achieve some of the best dog performance you have ever hunted with, as well as an obedient dog in your home. You will not be disappointed, I assure you! The point of the last few articles is that there should not be such separation between a gundog, a hunt test dog and a trial dog. Sure, field trials are a different game than a hunt test but the idea of a well-trained retriever capable of marking birds, retrieving to hand, and running blind retrieves describes the perfect hunting retriever. After all, these dogs were doing these things in the field long before we ever designed a test or a trial to test them!

Written by Ryan Eder Upland Gundog Association.

[3 black dogs]

Yes in some casses alot of discussing and not alot of doing.

[sambo]

Great read

[krakadawn]

Joshcat,

I think you copied this in direct response to Sharon's comments about your recent posts. It's an interesting read but I'm not sure where to start to respond.....

Lots of good information here but probably too much all at once especially when you don't know the audience. My general feel is that the author has some good general information but packing it in to a small review can be counterproductive. Not sure that many can grasp the general transition here in training especially when they probably can't discuss and understand sub skills. The blind section probably needed a whole chapter....just as an example ...breaking down all the initial steps. Moving through transition is demanding and difficult, understanding FTP is just one example.

You threw in Bill Hillman's name, there are several others who have produced and published much before Bill. Reference to Lardy just as an example.

I don't know the author you reference so difficult to know the purpose of this information although there is much that is contained here that could produce lots of good discussions. The focus on retriever skills would be just one aspect for people to consider who are into producing a solid/quality hunting dog......I think you were just using this as an example.

[Joshcat]

The author is Ryan Eder the Founder of the Upland Gundog Association. There are alot of other great articles on the site as well. Just so you are aware of where I come from I used to breed and hunt labs in Ontario when I was younger. I enjoy your criticism and unfortunatly take it with a grain of salt as we dont know each other. Hopefully that will change and I will get to meet you at our event. You mentioned about walk the walk and talk the talk, come run your dogs at our event and earn some credibility with me

[krakadawn]

Thanks for the offer Josh but that's not the game I play nor will I .I will be interested in how well this goes, how many show up, what the tests look like etc. You are welcome to come to a field trial anytime as well, perhaps the National, held in September in your province. My comment about 'walk the walk' was not aimed at you or your group...just to be clear. As 3 Dogs mentioned previously we have some folks who never seem to 'do' but climb on pretty heavy with comments.

I would suggest you push ahead for some recognition for your group so that there is more of a purpose for being part of this activity. Feel free to make a proposal to the Retriever Council....wouldn't you like some recognition and especially for dogs who are accomplished.

You challenged folks to come out and see some great dogs work....that is always worthwhile, motivating and enjoyable for us. If you're in the area of Strathmore, I'd suggest you find time in September to see the best from here and top USA dogs go head to head for a week....you will see some great dogs there at the National.

By the way I concur with the grain of salt....good luck!

[yellow dog]

Since 3 Dogs never mentioned any names then it would be difficult to know who he was talking about. The folks who never seem to do but climb on pretty heavy with comments would also need to known and debated but we are not sure what those comments are ???? So it seems likely ego's are at play here because of the mystery surrounding all of this. Joshcat I have found many credible people on this forum and the most credible are the ones who bring many years of experience from all facets of dog training that do not have blinders on. I train almost on a daily bases with my new springer spaniel but do not compete and I have a mentor. At this point I am content with that but have a plan to do more and in time it will happen. I have learned patience is the key to my dog training experience . Good luck and I hope to meet you at the end of the month.

[krakadawn]

YD, good you're making progress and enjoying it. Finding someone to help and provide mentorship was an excellent idea. Starting in November there are a couple of Retriever Clubs in the Toronto area that hold picnic trails/training trials...nothing formal, everyone welcome, usually about $5 a dog to cover some costs. It would give you some opportunity to practise retrieving skills with your springer....not just for labs.
Years ago I remember another springer person.....Frank O. bringing a little female by the name of Tara to our monthly trials. Seems she was more than able to hold her own with the retrievers, always did well and went on to put some impressive titles in front of her name.

[little brit]

This is turning out to be a "who has the bigger wiener dog" debate. From reading several post on different sites and talking to some lab guys, it seems they have a little chip on their shoulder when it comes to versatile gun dogs.....just my petty opinion.

[krakadawn]

Hey Brit, just to be clear there is no chip on this guy's shoulder...perhaps you met some I don't know. I absolutely love versatile gun dogs. My labs have always been widely used even though they were field trial dogs but excel when hunting season arrives whether in the marsh, the open water or in uplands.

My comments have been aimed at informing people clearly so that they know exactly what they are getting into. Organizations who are not formalized under a parent organization(AKC , CKC, UKC) often mislead people. Putting a club title on a dog can be very misleading as compared to confirmed and formalized titles. Make no mistake when people look for the best breeding available, they should know what a title means. We're not in the same universe if you try to compare Field Trial Champions....regardless of the breed to many of these.

So if you want fun and meet like minded folks then fill your boots...nothing wrong with enjoying oneself.

The biggest challenge I would issue to any unofficial group is simply.....'what are you doing to help/improve the type of dog you have' I'm sure you recently read how CKC was lobbying the USA import changes that would have prevented any Canadian breeder from shipping a dog to the USA under 6 months. Through their efforts pups can still be shipped at 7-8 week range. just one of many challenges met by CKC.

Being anti CKC should not cloud your views of developing and tracking quality dogs for generations to come.....who could quibble with that.

Over the years many different venues developed as folks did not or could not compete in field trials. I think we have developed very nicely with various levels of hunt tests. So now when you see we have both field trials and hunt tests why would a hunter look beyond these?

By the way field trials have always where the big dogs compete.....like it or not and that's where the titles that many look for are confirmed....on dogs that many people dream about.