Not retrieving to hand or even close to me

[400bigbear]

Yeah yeah yeah . When dog picks up bird just move away from him even running . Such a simple fix many make complicated . Or go back and work him on a rope . It amazes me the shock collar syndrome that goes on here when a dog can easily be corrected by simple means . Nice looking pup by the way .

TD

[Dakota Creek]

Yeah yeah yeah . When dog picks up bird just move away from him even running . Such a simple fix many make complicated . Or go back and work him on a rope . It amazes me the shock collar syndrome that goes on here when a dog can easily be corrected by simple means . TD

If the dog has been through CC and FF, it should not be standing there dropping the bird and refusing to return to your side. A quick "Here, Nick, Here", or using the tone or vibrate function on your collar (depending on how you have trained / transitioned the dog) should quickly have the dog standing there beside you ready to deliver to hand. It is much easier to have gone through this training and have the "reach" of the collar when you are hunting over water should the dog decide to go back to their old ways and not bring the bird back. Your solution of "just move away from him running" ... Can be difficult to do when hunting out of a boat or sitting out in a marsh in a duck blind. ;-)

From the OP's photo, the dog is wearing one. Might as well use it to it's full potential rather than going and finding a rope!

[krakadawn]

BB's suggestions about running away and using a rope are valid........at a certain level only. By the way I've witnessed the use of rope to be far more inhumane than a collar. Pretty hard to run away in certain situations and the rope is not always present,

BB is anti collar....and that's fine but should not read certain comments as the 'shock; collar syndrome. I see these as some good sharing of experience and teaching.....we all know teaching comes first! Historically some dog trainers methods were way more inhumane than an ecollar....I won't bother mentioning.

Simple means do not correct difficult problems.

[400bigbear]

If the dog has been through CC and FF, it should not be standing there dropping the bird and refusing to return to your side. A quick "Here, Nick, Here", or using the tone or vibrate function on your collar (depending on how you have trained / transitioned the dog) should quickly have the dog standing there beside you ready to deliver to hand. It is much easier to have gone through this training and have the "reach" of the collar when you are hunting over water should the dog decide to go back to their old ways and not bring the bird back. Your solution of "just move away from him running" ... Can be difficult to do when hunting out of a boat or sitting out in a marsh in a duck blind. ;-)

From the OP's photo, the dog is wearing one. Might as well use it to it's full potential rather than going and finding a rope!

Of course you can't run in a boat but if your dog is not clean on land then it should not be worked in the water till it is clean . Most dogs screw up on land rather than in the water I have always found . Your boat is the spot on the spot . All the very very very best dogs way back when started without shock treatment . The majority reading these posts are not even close to having the knowledge to use a shock collar correctly yet I see E collars mentioned regularly like its THE ANSWER . Well it's not . The dogs of today are no better than the dogs of 50 years ago but they sure display more issues from what I have seen . It's my personal belief that this rush rush rush shock shock shock is an issue unto itself . Not all dogs are created equal and will come into their own till they mature at their own pace . I've seen some of the best come into their own at 4 years yet your trying to push pups . OK Do your thing and shock shock shock . I won't, but it sickens me to have to clean up the pieces of wired out dogs you leave in your wake because of the push for shock . My saying is that if you can't do it without shock in most cases ,you shouldn't be working a dog . Very blunt I know , but it's true , . Shocking a dog in the water ? Beyond crazy and when a dog is at his most vulnerable . But have at it .

TD

[krakadawn]

TD you are spot on about dogs having problems on land first and for sure issues that exist need to be cleaned up there first. You are also correct that there is a learning curve for the ecollar but is easily handled even by most.

I totally disagree about your assessment of dogs from 50 yrs ago. There is absolutely no doubt today's dogs...in general are better. Just take a look at any of the current testing going on(FT or HT) compared to back then(FT Only).

And most if not all people I train with do not shock-shock-shock. In fact with solid sequential training and clear standards it may happen very infrequently BUT if their is an issue of defiance,lack of effort or safety then I have a remote tool to use that you don't......it's that simple. This is a correctional tool not a substitute for poor or lack of training on the handler's part.

Not sure the level to which you train but if you are trying to tell me you are doing All Age training sans collar then I'd like to hear your approaches to decheating,whistle sits at long distances and lack of effort in casting at distances.

I have a catalogue of a National I competed in 1980, with diagrams/descriptions etc. There is absolutely NO comparison to what is expected. I don't think my view is very dated, in fact I just returned from the National in Alberta.

Coming into their own at age 4 is nothing new. I certainly don't expect pups to be doing things clearly out of their league. And just as an aside, many FT dogs come into their very best at ages 6-8.

[400bigbear]

Krakadawn . As you know the dogs of yester year were bred to retrieve . Today it's the same . Yes many are 6-8 before they glisten rather than just shine but my point of 4 years old was just making a point since many expect soooo much more way before then even . My points are based on the expectations of everyday hunters and their dogs . Most who come to me use their dogs to retrieve and be steady . That is their award and reward every time they go out into the field . Ribbons and trophies mean nothing in the field just the duck or goose etc being brought to hand . Yes champions they are every time a cripple is found or a solid retrieve is made . You can't replicate in any trial a cripple or a duck that dives under and hangs onto a weed . But this happens in the field on a regular basis and I see dogs recover both . Yes diving under is nothing new for a retriever but it is the sign of a gifted special dog that has that extra umph and brains above the rest . I've made mistakes over the years by not trusting my dog in the field at times . The dog was always right though as I hung my head in remorse and shame when up they popped with a duck I was unaware of .

Correction is correction but where is the line drawn when using an E collar . If one needs that as a standard tool that was never used before , where are the real trainers I ask . Maybe its the trainers that need to start at grade 1 again to hone their skills . An E collar is a crutch for many . Where has the intuitive skill gone amongst other things ? A sharp pop on the whistle still works . When I blast it's like a punch in the head at any distance . Was there not some E collar advice given regarding just a basic break ? It's not needed . If a dog man cannot fix breaking without use of an E collar well lets just say .........

TD

[krakadawn]

Certainly don't disagree with the hunting situations you reference. Diving for ducks comes from experience. I hunt divers a lot, my dogs understand them very well. Putting their head under is nothing new, finding cripples is routine.

The line you question is very worthy of discussion. The humane treatment of our dogs is paramount regardless of the tool. Far worsre situations exist with choke collars ,rat shot ,sling shots ,whips etc..........

And yes an ecollar can be very effective in correcting(notice I did not say teaching) an unsteady dog. But pick your poison.

You and I may not agree but I'm sure you can agree that bad trainers and bad training create bad situations....collar has very little to do with it. We all know the 'spoon' did not make Rosie O'Donnell fat

Ribbons and trophies may mean little to some but for many that still provides one of the bench marks in establishing excellence in retrieving and the place to go when selecting a new pup.. Those dogs have distinguished themselves with very high standards....then it's up to you. It really behoves people to become a student of the game and learn how to train effectively to make the best retriever he/she can be.

[Waftrudnir]

Yeah yeah yeah . ... go back and work him on a rope ...

TD

the dog picks up the duck! so what should force fetch help?
if you got this adorable pup started so well, you won't need to pay someone else to do FF with him...
There’s nothing wrong; he just shows that he values the birds! All YOU need to do is show him why he should value you more than the bird (give and take).
Simply, take the bird, get him on the check cord, through the bird and reward him royally if he retrieves properly. If he doesn't, reel him in and take it anyway.