Lack of Big Bucks

[oaknut]

Do you not think that maybe the two week long rifle hunt has something to do with the impatience of hunters? All the hunting is done in a week.. or two... how many bucks would you let pass when you only have one week? Do they have longer rifle seasons in the us?

So far this season I have a total of 12 hours hunt time in. I still passed on a small basket 8 with four inch tines and Managed to get a decent nine point. So I think it shouldnt matter.

[biggamer]

I don't think it matters if the season is a week or 6 weeks, it's the attitude that is the issue. The "brown it's down" rule applies and until that changes this is the situation we are gonna find ourselves in. I will be honest and say I have passed on a few bucks this year between 125-145" which to most is a fine deer. When, like myself, u experience hunting in other jurisdictions where the mindset is different and see what the potential is, you try and invoke some change here....take a look at pensylvania where for years a harvested 120" 8ptr drew people like moths to a flame. With antler restrictions and some hunter participation they now are enjoying some of the best hunting they have had in decades. People need to understand that harvesting does is not a bad thing and leads to a higher buck to doe ratio across the herd. When there is more than a 1-5 or 1-7 ratio then the bucks run rampant chasing all those in heat, less breeding actually takes place, and the bucks have wore themselves to exhaustion/reduce fat stores, normally falling victim to a harsh winter or predators more easily. A healthy ratio promotes good genetics, more multiple births, and a higher survival rate. The research is out there for anyone to read and no I am not involved in Qdma or myself a trophy hunter. I do enjoy chasing monster whitetails but I also enjoy the table fair just as much. We rely on the MNRF to manage our resource but we can also play a huge role in the outcomes, issues, and solutions.....

[werner.reiche]

So far this season I have a total of 12 hours hunt time in. I still passed on a small basket 8 with four inch tines and Managed to get a decent nine point. So I think it shouldnt matter.

I've put in 11 x 3 hour sits with the bow + 11 dark-to-dark days with the rifle. No doe tag. Only saw one buck 250+ yards away - to far for open sights (for me). ..so I envy your success....Last year was a different story.

55B has a 2 week season - very few people I know hunt the full two weeks. If you lengthened it by opening it earlier, or extended it a week or two in November, I don't think it would make a big difference. If you lengthened it into December - that would make a big difference, especially if there was snow - deer at bait piles and migrating park deer.

[Sudsee]

Great posts Biggamer

[werner.reiche]

I don't think it matters if the season is a week or 6 weeks, it's the attitude that is the issue. The "brown it's down" rule applies and until that changes this is the situation we are gonna find ourselves in. I will be honest and say I have passed on a few bucks this year between 125-145" which to most is a fine deer. When, like myself, u experience hunting in other jurisdictions where the mindset is different and see what the potential is, you try and invoke some change here....take a look at pensylvania where for years a harvested 120" 8ptr drew people like moths to a flame. With antler restrictions and some hunter participation they now are enjoying some of the best hunting they have had in decades. People need to understand that harvesting does is not a bad thing and leads to a higher buck to doe ratio across the herd. When there is more than a 1-5 or 1-7 ratio then the bucks run rampant chasing all those in heat, less breeding actually takes place, and the bucks have wore themselves to exhaustion/reduce fat stores, normally falling victim to a harsh winter or predators more easily. A healthy ratio promotes good genetics, more multiple births, and a higher survival rate. The research is out there for anyone to read and no I am not involved in Qdma or myself a trophy hunter. I do enjoy chasing monster whitetails but I also enjoy the table fair just as much. We rely on the MNRF to manage our resource but we can also play a huge role in the outcomes, issues, and solutions.....

One thing Ontario has that the states (even the northern ones) do not usually have is long winters with deep snow. That makes attempts to stock pile deer somewhat risk as in 2008 and again in 2013, we lost a lot of deer. Re: shooting does - maybe its different in southern Ontario - but from what I see, we do not have the buck:doe imbalance that was present in many areas of the states where bucks-only was the rule for decades (Michigan, Pennsylvania). Shooting does when many are complaining of too few deer of any sex/age is a bad thing. I know at least one landowner who thinks the deer have been wiped out in the area because he continues to shoot every doe he can on his 350 acres.

What you have posted about bucks running themselves down when the buck:doe ratio is too low is completely backwards. Bucks run themselves down when there are too few does and too many bucks - they spend their time running/chasing/fighting which uses a lot of energy (but it makes for better hunting). When there are many does - the buck sticks with one doe for 36-48 hours, mostly resting with a bit of breeding going on - not to stressful on the buck (but makes for poor hunting).. Re better genetics, more multiple births, higher survival rates being a product of a higher buck:doe ratio - I have not seen this published anywhere and doubt that it has been proven.

[biggamer]

I agree werner with most of what you are saying and value a difference of opinion on some of the issues. I hunt northern ontario as well as southern ontario, and will say winters seriously devastate the populations way worse up there. I do find though in the north there is a greater variety to age classes of bucks compared to southern ontario. I can consistently see nice 3-6yr old bucks over a two week period in the north country and experience hunting in "the rut". Down here I can run 10-20 game cams and can count on one hand the number of mature bucks I get on film vs. the hundreds of doe pics. This is over multiple properties and throughout the season. If I didn't spend many hours on stand over many years, I may just chaulk the last couple seasons up to bad luck/weather etc. But I am convinced that in Southern Ontario and most of the province we are experiencing a small time crisis when it comes to our deer populations. In the last 5yrs i would say my live sightings and photos are down easily 80% from years prior. My sentiments are shared by some hunters in my area as well. The controlled hunt has been effective in reducing the populations like it was intended to do. Now the question is what steps or ideas will we come up with to manage what we have remaining. You hunt northern ontario as well I am guessing, and I'm sure you can share some insight as to what you are observing. I've read your posts before and am impressed with your knowledge, curious as to your take on what you are experiencing.

[werner.reiche]

I hunt 55B south of Algonquin park - both in the crown land on the northwest and the farm land in the south east. I don't think last winter was too hard on our deer. Lots of fawns from last year made it through the winter. Lots of does and a few nice bucks around. Not too many doe tags - we had none this year. I'd say our deer herd is in pretty good shape. No coyotes around this year either - not sure where they went - there were a lot last year. Sightings since 2008 are stable - but lower than before the 2008 winter - probably were at a once in a lifetime high prior to that.

My guess is a lot of places where the deer numbers are lower, its largely due to the number of doe tags being issued...and I think the MNR got it right in cutting them back this year in several WMUs.

[LowbanksArcher]

How do you feel about the question at hand, werner.reiche? The lack of big bucks? Like biggamer, I've seen enough in your posts to value your opinion. You said it yourself that you've put in a lot of time and only seen 1 buck. What do you feel needs to change?

[werner.reiche]

How do you feel about the question at hand, werner.reiche? The lack of big bucks? Like biggamer, I've seen enough in your posts to value your opinion. You said it yourself that you've put in a lot of time and only seen 1 buck. What do you feel needs to change?

There are big bucks out there that I am not seeing - but I see their tracks, and see them on the trail cams. I guess my question for those not seeing 'big bucks' - lets say 3.5 yr and older is, what percentage of the deer population are you expecting it to be? I'd guess less than 10%.

And lets not confuse numbers of pictures - I've got 2 does and 2 fawns that show up regularly on one camera, along with a monster buck, a 6 and a spike. But 99% of the pictures are of the does and fawns. The bucks - even the spike don't like the camera. I'll get one or two pics and they are gone. The does and fawns hang around and I'll get 30+ pictures of them.

Rifle season I spent most of the time dogging. About 1/3 the deer we ran were decent bucks - based on their tracks. A lot of my 'not seeing bucks' has to do with that they are far more elusive than does/fawns.

[Hunter John]

And not to mention that once a buck gets to 3.5 he is so much a different animal all together you mite wonder if they are the same species. I also agree they make up less than 10% of the pop , I read some time back an article by Valerieus Giest that over 90% don't make it past 2.5 years.