Sound Advice

[jaycee]

Easy now

Not saying this is a good idea for centerfire. This was posted in MZ forum remember. Duplex loads in a MZ are not what the author is referring to so lets get that straight and not the same by a country mile.

Take a look at the loads and realize these are not the same.

Answered extremely well by terrym, if you cannot see the correlation here, I cannot help you.

[Big Jack]

Actually the issue here is people promoting duplex loads using smokeless powders in a Savage ML10 smokeless muzzle loader which is a muzzle loader mostly by technicality. this gun is subject to multiple lawsuits due to user error and untrained people treating smokeless powder like black powder. Over load a blackpowder charge by 15% and it just makes more noise. With smokeless powder you could destroy the gun and end up in emergency. Promoting the use of duplex smokeless loads by amateurs is extremely irresponsible. If you are not a trained expert in a well equipped lab with extensive test equipment as all powder manufacturers have, you are an amateur. What you choose to do is your own business but you shouldn't be discussing that here.

Usually you and I are on the same page on a lot of things but on this we differ greatly. I'll point out that Jaycee was the original poster and I didn't bring it up but if you want to talk about it then I will.

Jaycee was simply stirring the pot and I have little to know patience for regurgitated information that is misconstrued as fact. I have read the volume he is talking about and Good Old Mr Lee is not talking about MZ's. So lets present things in the light they were intended. Had he posted this in Firearms forum I would have agreed.

On to duplex loads for clarifications on how I see things;

Do I recommend it? - no.

Do I see possible merit? - yes

Do I see inherent danger? - yes absolutely but honestly comparing a duplex CF load and a MZ load is ridiculous. Every part is so vastly different they cannot be compared. If you think they are the same take one of your CF rifle and try to shove a bullet down the bore - good luck with that. The additional resistance is a good part of why duplex loading of a CF is soooo dangerous along with what happens in a cartridge before the bullet even leaves the case.

Will I actually utilize and test a duplex load? - at this point no because I have decided that until I exhaust all single powder charges of double and single based powders and also take a hard look at ignition efficiency, there is no point. If I can reach my personal goal of accuracy and distance why bother.

Hope that clarifies my position....

[terrym]

The problem is they are talking about mixing duplex loads with smokeless powders here, not BP or substitutes. Google Savage ML10 law suits and you will see that this firearm is on the edge design wise and to take chances by modifying professionally tested and proven loads in corporate labs is unsafe and should not be encouraged in a forum like this. You make valid points about the inherent differences between a modern centerfire that uses brass casing to contain charges but that only highlites why the Savage ML10 is not to be messed with. No brass cartridge to contain and direct gases and a flash hole in the middle of a threaded on breech plug. Not a design to be taking chances with. Somebody here went on about iron sight screw holes being dangerous in a barrel yet a an inline ML has a hole pointed at your face. These are all fine and dandy to wax poetic about but when you pull the trigger and have made an error in judgement/calculation/blending and you have a catastrophic reaction the results can't be taken back. The surgeons will do their best though.

[Big Jack]

Terry in the MZ a duplex load is layered not blended.

You refer to the breach plug failure but not one of those lawsuits are about this supposed weak point you are referring to. Not any I have seen anyway.

Please point out one defined instance of duplexing causing catastrophic failure.


You are more likely to have a catastrophic failure due to double loading.

Don't use duplex loads as they are unsafe!

[terrym]

Terry in the MZ a duplex load is layered not blended.

You refer to the breach plug failure but not one of those lawsuits are about this supposed weak point you are referring to. Not any I have seen anyway.

Please point out one defined instance of duplexing causing catastrophic failure.


You are more likely to have a catastrophic failure due to double loading.

Duplex loads in ML are done with BP or a substitute. We are talking about modern smokeless powders being used in a Savage ML10 here. Apples and Oranges. As for double loading? Again apples & Oranges. Many BP guns get double loaded every year due to user error. To double load a Smokeless load and ignite it is a tragedy about to happen.
I have said my piece on this. Do what you want it won't change my life either way. I shoot a Savage ML10 with smokeless powder as do every guy in my hunting party. We take moose out to 200 yds with them easily with factory approved loads and data. If you feel possible personal injury is worth an extra 20 fps by messing with non approved loads then have at her.

[Big Jack]

Sorry but there is an entire website that deals primarily with Savage MZ and also tested duplex smokeless loads.

Don't use them as they are dangerous and you could die!

I understand the points you are making but there is always room for meaningful discussion. This is a discussion board after all.

As I said, at this point I am working with single powder charges. I have procured most suitable powders at this point.

[jaycee]

Jaycee was simply stirring the pot and I have little to know patience for regurgitated information that is misconstrued as fact.

DEFINITELY NOT STIRRING THE POT, just passing on info to keep this a safe sport .
By the way "Big Jack " I sent you an pm.
Just before posting this , I got off the phone with a technician name given] at Alliant Powders in Lewiston Idaho , Hodgdon/IMR are closed today .
I specifically asked him about "Duplex Loads ", explaining the how and why of these loads in Smokeless ML's.
His answer was "I/we would not touch this with a ten foot pole , you are dealing with disaster trying to mix powders [smokeless]. There are too many amateurs trying to get a little extra performance out of these guns, for what another few feet per second and to try to get a few more yards in shooting distance all this is not worth the danger involved.
He said we are well aware of the many that have done it and lost not just their guns[destroyed] but also fingers , thumbs and parts of their face then initiating lawsuits.
Again he said "do not do it ".
I also asked if he knew anything of Hornady Super Performance ammunition, his answer was that they use a "proprietary powder " not duplex to his knowledge , this powder is not available to the public for reloading of their own ammunition, as it is a propriety powder and process.

There you have it , from a direct source just passing on information to keep us and the sport SAFE , not stirring the pot as was mentioned by Big Jack.

[Big Jack]

What kind of answer did you expect?

Of course you got that answer. Give me one example of a lawsuit where the person states he used a duplex load. I highly doubt you'll find one as even if he did he certainly would not admit it or bye bye lawsuit.

You would have better served the shooting community by asking them to hurry up and get some powder made as they haven't sent much to Canada.

Again for petes sake I am not advocating duplex loads but hey I'll go one further;

Here Yee, Here Yee - duplexing loads is patently unsafe and you will blow up yourself and your gun AND your dick will probably fall off.


There you have it - happy?

I did not read your PM but will and respond accordingly. You have the power over this thread. Just simply hit delete on your first post and it goes away.

You say you aren't stirring the pot and ok you aren't stirring the pot so why post what you posted if not for meaningful discussion?

[Big Jack]

Corrected all my other posts too

[jaycee]

You would have better served the shooting community by asking them to hurry up and get some powder made as they haven't sent much to Canada.

Since John Emmett in St. Catharines is no longer a distributor,there hasn't been any Alliant or Reloader series or Hercules powders being shipped to Ontario , hasn't been for a year .
I thought every one or most every one knew that.