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June 7th, 2015, 01:42 PM
#1
neonics - science collapse disorder
Rather than dumping this in the bee thread, here we go
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonentin...ss-bee-deaths/
..and an evironment canada report including bee mortality during the planting season.
http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/cps-spc/pubs/...id-eng.php#a22
Yet agriculture canada hasn't banned it, yet Ontario politicians - not researchers think they are smarter and are banning it, similar to the ban on broadleaf weed killers a decade or so ago - not that the ban will do anything productive, just that banning something was a popular decision.
No science here. I'd bring up the spring bear hunt ban too, and blame it all on stupid liberals - but that was Harris.
Last edited by werner.reiche; June 7th, 2015 at 01:49 PM.
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June 7th, 2015 01:42 PM
# ADS
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June 7th, 2015, 02:02 PM
#2
Absolutely nothing wrong with the decision. The ban isn't permanent and its not impeding future testing and experimentation.
If the companies pimping such products and procedures can prove they're safe with proper testing and straight up reports, and if anti's scientists cant prove they're as dangerous as claimed...they'll be back on the market.
But since its been proven that there are major gaps in the testing and reporting in the development of many agrichems (specifically neonics here) and since the FDA's corrupted practice of accepting poorly tested products is the laughing stock of the developed world... Whats the harm in halting sale and use of such products until real answers are found?
Edit to add:
If you pay attention to the debate, nobody respectable is claiming that CCD is solely caused by neonics. It's more a point that so many factors (weather, transporting bees for pollination, mites and predators, normal diseases, foreign diseases, pesticides, abnormal forage (GMO) and mis-bred genetics) are putting undue stress on bee colonies.
Neonics is definitely one of the factors, its proven to weaken bee immunity and make them more susceptible to numerous health issues and hive disorders. Neonics don't just flat out kill a colony like a heavy pesticide spray does. So the nay-sayers think they can get away with claiming its harmless.
Also, there are many confirmed cases of CCD in southern Ontario (one beekeeper has a YouTube vid of 100% colony mortality -about 30 hives at one site that had been previously healthy for 30+ yrs) so any article that tries to claim there are no Canadian instances can be immediately disregarded as straight up merde.
Last edited by Oddmott; June 7th, 2015 at 02:38 PM.
Roosted ain't Roasted.
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June 7th, 2015, 04:25 PM
#3
The beekeepers I know in the ottawa area say banning neonics is going to have a negative effect on the bees as farmers replace using it with other pesticides. Both guys I know also say that CCD (which they haven't experienced, but have talked to others in the industry about) is largely caused by starving bees during the winter.
The neonics - like the weed killer ban for lawns - is largely a BS political thing.
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June 7th, 2015, 04:50 PM
#4
Disagree.
Many jurisdictions world wide are banning neonics for good reason.
Environmental persistence is a huge problem
CCD is likely multi-factorial in it's ability to occur. The trigger has yet to be defined.
All to often, when folks defend toxins like Neonics, they are actually attacking people of different political/cultural persuasion.
You may not like liberals/Mother Earth News/ European Union/environmentalists but there are some serious concerns these folks have. Blindly denying the validity of their science is going to destroy this world.
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June 7th, 2015, 04:55 PM
#5
I was horrified this winter when I was ordering seeds for my garden from Stokes.
Among many things, I wanted about 500 seeds for sweet corn.
It was difficult to find any that had not been pre-treated with neonics.
What's up?
I guess I am "organic" when it comes to my own garden. Maybe I'm the same hunting too. No antibiotics or supplements for the deer/grouse and ducks I eat.
No chemicals in the free range chickens I raise.
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June 7th, 2015, 05:13 PM
#6
Originally Posted by
werner.reiche
Both guys I know also say that CCD (which they haven't experienced, but have talked to others in the industry about) is largely caused by starving bees during the winter.
The neonics - like the weed killer ban for lawns - is largely a BS political thing.
Such an opinion may have merit... If CCD was happening to only newbs like me.
Unfortunately the fact that some of the most substantial victims (Ontario) have been huge operations that span upwards of 5 generations - ppl who know what they're doing and don't starve their bees in other words - speaks to the point that it isn't the cause of the mass CCD we saw occur the last 2 yrs.
The fact that we're not seeing much - if any - cases of CCD in eastern and northern Ontario where forage is more diverse and corn and soy makes up a much smaller percentage of our flora than is the case in Southern Ontario (where 98% of Canadian reported cases of CCD have been) also speaks volumes.
Your own report you linked to pointed out 2 or 3 ways its been proven neonics have affected and killed bee colonies, and also expressly stated that no conclusions can be drawn from the extensive longterm testing underway, yet.
Pretty clear there's an issue, and questions needing answers.
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June 7th, 2015, 05:57 PM
#7
A couple weeks of empty shelves in the grocery store is going to solve all of this.
We came close in 2010.
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June 8th, 2015, 06:53 AM
#8
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June 8th, 2015, 07:56 AM
#9
Originally Posted by
cramadog2
The last article (financialpost.com) is well worth the read.
From the article:
No one is arguing neonics are exactly a health food for bees. They’re pesticides. Bees are insects. The science is clear: neonics kill bees when administered in sufficient doses.
The science is less clear, however, on whether bees are exposed to anything like those doses in the field when farmers use neonics according to guidelines and recommendations.
And if neonics are banned, farmers will return to using spray and granular pesticides, which they say are less effective at protecting crops in the growth stage and even more harmful to human, bee and environmental health.
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June 8th, 2015, 09:10 AM
#10
Originally Posted by
werner.reiche
The last article (financialpost.com) is well worth the read.
From the article:
No one is arguing neonics are exactly a health food for bees. They’re pesticides. Bees are insects. The science is clear: neonics kill bees when administered in sufficient doses.
The science is less clear, however, on whether bees are exposed to anything like those doses in the field when farmers use neonics according to guidelines and recommendations.
And if neonics are banned, farmers will return to using spray and granular pesticides, which they say are less effective at protecting crops in the growth stage and even more harmful to human, bee and environmental health.
It really makes you wonder how farmers survived all these years and were successful before the Big Chemical Companies developed all these chemicals that increase the yields of crops [and kill off more beneficial insects than necessary, and at the same time our song birds are dying off due to the lack of food "insects" ]
Bayer , Monsanto and Shell are slowly damaging the atmosphere.
Last edited by jaycee; June 8th, 2015 at 09:14 AM.
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