Shortening Up a Big Running Bird dog

[finsfurfeathers]

Realistically, a "big running" flusher is just a poorly trained flusher. This thread is about pointers.

Seems you really don't know the purpose or use of an e collar.

[Cass]

Or i don't rely on a tool to make a trained dog. This isn't even a discussion for a flushing breed

[Sharon]

Seems you really don't know the purpose or use of an e collar.

Actually Cass knows more than most on here.

"a 'big running flusher is just a poorly trained flusher" quote . I agree.

I'm very cautious about using the e collar correction unless I can clearly see the dog , he is disobeying what I know he knows and/or a bird isn't in the picture. Imo more harm has been done to dogs through the incorrect use of e collars then any other training error - except maybe so much hacking at the dog that his independence is harmed.

If I had a need to shorten up a dog which I never have , I would teach the dog to change direction on a vibration or whistle.

I wish Ugo would join in the discussion as he often? gets a dog to train that the owner wishes to have shortened up to a slow - paced hunt.
The owner has bought a well bred - fireball but...........



edited : to keep the peace

[Cass]

A correction for something that the dog doesn't understand is not an effective correction. An e-collar is a tool. An effective one if used properly, but detrimental if used improperly. It appears we have a difference of opinion finsfurfeathers and that is okay. As I understand it, pointing dog people use e-collars differently than retrievers and spaniels. You're entitled to your opinions.

[Sharon]

The principles are the same though for all 3 kinds of dogs.

From one of my favourite mags.:

32 principles:

http://www.gundogmag.com/gear-accessories/collar_tips/

[Ugo]

This sounds like more of a discussion about e-collars than effective range.
All-too-often, I hear, "No, no, my dog points steady, no problem but he works too far." That is my first warning that the dog is not reliably broke the way it should be.
In my opinion, a functional closer pattern for a flusher is critical. It is one of the main components of handling as I see it. Once I have a pattern on my flusher, a BIG part of the job is completed (if it's a well bred flusher).
Range is not as critical for the hunting dog as the terrain and the application of the species being hunted. 200 yards on the prairies might still be effective while many find that down-right renegade in the grouse woods.
I like to build co-operation by virtue of rewarding success (...this is what works vs this does not work) which is the result of foundation training followed up by experience afield.
For a flusher to be effective it must work to the gun. For a pointer, it must work to the species/habitat.
I am often surprised at how many pointing dog owners insist that their pointers work to the gun by a flushing breed's definition. This is most often supported by their past experiences with poorly trained pointing dogs that don't hold point or do not have experience with wild birds.
Yes, a pointing dog can run too big if after stabbing a find, the time taken to locate and flush results in an unproductive because the bird(s) has departed. A pointing dog that lolly-gags around at 40 yards is not likely to be productive on wild birds for a number of reasons. Perhaps it can handle pen-raised birds but not wild birds. An effective pointing dog MUST have pace. This, and a nose to go with said pace is what hammers wily birds into the ground so that the hunter has a reasonable amount of time to approach and flush.
Keep in mind that the most challenging part of approaching a pointing dog in the grouse woods is that where you would typically find grouse, there are a healthy number of blow-downs, dead-falls, very dense cover. In this example, range isn't as much an issue as approaching quietly enough to make the closing sequence successful. I have often prematurely flushed well-pointed grouse that my dog has nailed simply because, hard as I tried, I sounded like a derailed freight train on the approach!
Most often, folk want to apply numbers to effective range - 50 yards for grouse, 100 for woodcock, 200 for Huns, etc. (Sort of like how some shot-gunners want to know how much lead they should use for the birds they are hunting. Both are of no use.) This has very little value because each and every situation is unique unto itself. There are too many other variables that are salient parts of this equation to apply a fixed value!
My setter handles at roughly 200 yards on either side of very dense northern Ontario grouse woods. Much more than that on the prairies. Most folk would consider this extreme. Fact is, she handles like she is on a string with VERY little input from me. She finds AND handles many grouse and provides a large number of opportunities for me. I long-ago discovered that Emma figured out this:
The further from me she was (within reason) the more successful she was on pegging her finds and getting rewarded with a bird to retrieve.
If you apply the logic, it is not a leap. Like I said, try as I may, I still make lots of noise negotiating productive grouse cover. Her rangy, stealthy, fast paced, wide spread application proves VERY productive. Her owner - not so much so.
If you are working a young dog, plant your birds so that the range your dog finds birds at will serve you on your preferred quarry. They are programmable in this regard. Use similar habitat that your preferred game birds utilize for training/planting in, and let that pointing dog do it's job, which unlike a flusher, is to use it's nose, experience and instinctsto go to likely objectives rather than a wind-shield wiper pattern and finally, allow her/him to take you to birds rather than the other way around.
There is no harm in patterning your pointing dog if this is the style of hunting you believe will serve you and what you hunt most however understand that with experience, your dog will learn what is productive cover. He/she will also deduct the most effective AND productive range as well as the course to be successful along with your support.

[finsfurfeathers]

. I cannot think of any way that would not be confusing to the dog of giving a correction for just "staying in range". But I'm all ears....

Realistically, a "big running" flusher is just a poorly trained flusher. This thread is about pointers.

Or i don't rely on a tool to make a trained dog. This isn't even a discussion for a flushing breed

. Let's discuss without putting people down .


.......

Hey Sharon not putting anyone down.
Simply stating the proper use of an e collar and the benefits and advantage. For someone to wonder why you would correct for doing the requested action indicates a fundamental flaw in their thinking. Yes it is a learning tool especially at distance and can be utilized effectively to correct any breed. Part of training is the use of a tool be it a leash, lead, or e collar than repetition and consistency. Thing is it gets harder the further out the dog is.

[Ugo]

I would like to apologize for the very long-winded response. It can be difficult to cover all the variables when answering something that addresses a wide-spread demographic. Again.........sorry.

[finsfurfeathers]

I would like to apologize for the very long-winded response. It can be difficult to cover all the variables when answering something that addresses a wide-spread demographic. Again.........sorry.

Think your response is spot on. I've always felt a dogs work should reflect the desire of the hunter. Think the hang up here is Big range means different things to different people. For me doesn't matter how far a dog goes its response to my commands is what matters. The dog should respond the same at 20 yards as at 100 yards.

[finsfurfeathers]

I wish Ugo would join in the discussion as he often? gets a dog to train that the owner wishes to have shortened up to a slow - paced hunt.
The owner has bought a well bred - fireball but...........

This is a case where you get what you payed for. If you have purchased a fireball think the only thing will help will be time. As for all time slows us all down. I'm one who enjoys a close working slower paced dog. Yes there are disadvantages but its what I like. To achieve this I work with the pup as soon as it can in the field. Moving slowly letting them get their legs in the bush. If the pup has to run to keep up I'm moving to fast. This way I feel that I'm instilling the pace I would like them to work at.