So now that communism is back...

[JBen]

RB your a good guy as is G (Fishermcann).

You know what happens if "we" do as you suggest? Sweep things under the rug, pretend it doesn't exist. not talk about it either because people are tired about hearing it/reading it (theres a reason theres soooooo many thread…because theres soooo much corruption and ineptitude).

That is the very definition of Apathy. Not caring and or voter burnout

Apathy is the devil and at the very least Im sure the very thing Ms Wynne would like to see and her bedfellows to boot. Why do you suppose they kept it secret for so long and until after the Fed election?

From an article on it.

Being fortunate enough to live in a country like Canada, where we have the right to choose our political leaders, is a privilege. But since we have it so good here, voters often decide not to take part in our Municipal, Provincial, and Federal elections. Other reasons potential voters decide not to engage is the simple fact that they don't see change happening, they don't follow the news, and they just don't care.

How do you combat that?
By engaging people, especially younger generations (those 18-30) to become aware, engaged themselves, talk issues……..become informed….care.

Not caring as some imply we should do..is what leads to Apathy

[DanO]

Wow. That's an interesting distortion. We should all revel in lower wages as the CEO's and the owner of the company have the highest wages in history??? The gap between the working man and the CEO's wages has never been greater. Your logic will lead us to American style minimum wages. We'd all still be working Saturday mornings for minimum wage without the unions of the 1940's and 50's. Lower wages should bring lower cost goods EXCEPT the company doesn't pass the savings along.

[DanO]

J Ben . Never heard the term "yellow grass" before. I assume you're implying it's not nice to criticize other professionals.

I mention my career only because I think teachers are well paid and as such they should go above and beyond. Teachers do put in lots of overtime as they mark in the evening and coach as well. I think that's totally fair given the time off they get and the pay they receive. I realize I was well paid and I had an awesome job (retired now). I worked on farms and in the bush so I had a great benchmark to compare to as a teacher.

BTW. Mike Harris tried to change the summer holidays and the public wouldn't support the change. Teaching is odd in that it doesn't make much sense to make teachers sit in a school when there are no students present. Most teachers go into the school for a portion of the summer to get ready to teach ()as they should).

[JBen]

Not at all Dan
Don't really have any issues of fair criticisms....Even my own industry

What I mean and hopefully I articulate it well. We all know the expression "green grass" and what is always meant by that. What I mean by yellow grass is many of those intangible and very hard to quantify things we all face in our professions that we aren't compensated for or somehow cause us to enjoy our jobs less, be a little less productive. Do teachers often spend time at home marking or prepping weeknights or Sundays? Some I know do.....So do I. its yellow grass.

Example, please understand this is simply an "illustration" not meant to be definitive.
Teachers for example have to deal with brats, some truly unruly ones.
My profession? Or an arm of it? Often entails dealing with the public, some of whom can be well numerous things...and they are always right....even when they are wrong

We know, given how often these things come up (complaints about Teachers) teachers will point out some of the (can't think right word) "yellow grass" in their profession often as a means of justifying salaries or other.I personally don't think it should take away (often they are valid blades of yellow grass ).....But all professions have them.

Ill try to be frank and honest and short. Do I think teachers are over compensated? At the high ends yes, and the low ends no, arguably under. I truly do think believe many don't understand just how valuable those pensions are, both in a real sense (their real dollar values expressed as PV and FV) and in a soft sense. The peace of mind it gives you knowing that.....it makes it far easier to pay down your mtg a lot, a lot faster. You don't have to make a choice of putting spare money against debt or the future. You can go straight to paying down debt...when you think about rates and compound Interest thats a huge advantage....Any idea between that and summers "off" how years thats adds to your life span, where for many others stress shortens theirs?
what price is that worth?

What are the answers? One friend of mine who has been teaching for 20 years agrees. They are overpaid. But as she says what are we to do...Fire all the long term teacher hired right after Harris.....and then be left with an over weighting of young/inexperienced, green in life teachers?

For the most part I think teachers are well paid. (I think) When you annualize the salary whatever it may be. Its compares extremely well to the mean (better)...So for me in terms of salary Im not one of those. Its the pension that pushes things.

What to do?
Who the heck knows, not me. I wouldn't want to see hard cuts. I know what the profession is like and I know I couldn't do it. Then again, many teachers probably couldn't do mine.

What I do know and my "beef" is with the Unions. Im not one that would see Unions busted, still feel they are needed to some degree. But there is some serious change required there.

[DanO]

boy I think we're pretty much on the same page JB. I wonder what ever happened to benevolent owners that looked after their employees and thereby negated the need for a union. I'm sure there are owners that look after their employees even in today's world. One example that comes to mine is Chapman's ice cream in Markdale. I hear they paid their employees for almost a year while they rebuilt the plant after a fire. I used to live in Fergus and the Beatty Brothers apparently looked after their employees really well until GSW bought them out.

I think the scramble created by Free Trade has made employers value the cost of producing their product. There's no room for taking care of employees.

[yellow dog]

boy I think we're pretty much on the same page JB. I wonder what ever happened to benevolent owners that looked after their employees and thereby negated the need for a union. I'm sure there are owners that look after their employees even in today's world. One example that comes to mine is Chapman's ice cream in Markdale. I hear they paid their employees for almost a year while they rebuilt the plant after a fire. I used to live in Fergus and the Beatty Brothers apparently looked after their employees really well until GSW bought them out.

I think the scramble created by Free Trade has made employers value the cost of producing their product. There's no room for taking care of employees.

I am sure the insurance company had something to do with that after the Chapman's Ice Cream fire (employee wages).. Toyota and Honda take care of there employees as well and is non union.