Spring Bear Template

[toronto_guy]

Just my two cents, but this sounds like an exercise in geo-spatial analysis. If we're looking at statistics on a geographic basis, and making a recommendation based on them, it's not as easy to take WMU-level data like what I believe is being done. One needs to have specialized training in using GIS data, like in a program of geography, statistics, economics or so forth. Isn't this what the OFAH is for, to provide a data-driven voice for us?

Not to over-complicate things but I had to do a similar consulting engagement for business, not natural resources. I have formal economics and statistical training, and there was TONS of pitfalls and many mistakes made, and I had to consult with several GIS specialists before the modelling exercise was rigorous enough. I would not want to let this kind of analysis and recommendation based on a lay individual, regardless of how passionate or experienced an outdoorsman one is.

[SK33T3R]

Just my two cents, but this sounds like an exercise in geo-spatial analysis. If we're looking at statistics on a geographic basis, and making a recommendation based on them, it's not as easy to take WMU-level data like what I believe is being done. One needs to have specialized training in using GIS data, like in a program of geography, statistics, economics or so forth. Isn't this what the OFAH is for, to provide a data-driven voice for us?

Not to over-complicate things but I had to do a similar consulting engagement for business, not natural resources. I have formal economics and statistical training, and there was TONS of pitfalls and many mistakes made, and I had to consult with several GIS specialists before the modelling exercise was rigorous enough. I would not want to let this kind of analysis and recommendation based on a lay individual, regardless of how passionate or experienced an outdoorsman one is.

wmu's? bear densities, cub mortality yada yada yada. yes this might need a GIS specialist

but

do you think a specialist was used in this EBR proposal about 10kg max bait limit, 2 weeks pre-baiting, mandatory suspended bait, minimal distance to a building, etc etc..

I THINK NOT! These are just guesses from the MNR to try and micromanage this resource! There must be a bunch of MNR personnel with too much free time on their hands and they've been ordered to justify their jobs.

[toronto_guy]

wmu's? bear densities, cub mortality yada yada yada. yes this might need a GIS specialist

but

do you think a specialist was used in this EBR proposal about 10kg max bait limit, 2 weeks pre-baiting, mandatory suspended bait, minimal distance to a building, etc etc..

I THINK NOT! These are just guesses from the MNR to try and micromanage this resource! There must be a bunch of MNR personnel with too much free time on their hands and they've been ordered to justify their jobs.

I don't know but I do know they have bureaucrats with access to data that must've done at least some rudimentary analysis for a policy change. I mean I'm not against pushing back - I'm a hunter too so I prefer policies that favour hunting. I'm just saying, as others have, that I'm not comfortable nominating an "expert" in this matter without more scrutiny. An expert should have formal training, experience, be peer-reviewed, etc. Someone like a biologist perhaps (against, I'm not familiar with natural resources policy making). But why doesn't the OFAH hep with this as the expert? They have analystical and policy making experts on staff.

[trimmer21]

I don't know but I do know they have bureaucrats with access to data that must've done at least some rudimentary analysis for a policy change. I mean I'm not against pushing back - I'm a hunter too so I prefer policies that favour hunting. I'm just saying, as others have, that I'm not comfortable nominating an "expert" in this matter without more scrutiny. An expert should have formal training, experience, be peer-reviewed, etc. Someone like a biologist perhaps (against, I'm not familiar with natural resources policy making). But why doesn't the OFAH hep with this as the expert? They have analystical and policy making experts on staff.

Just FYI,it's a mistake to assume the OFAH isn't/hasn't been involved with tons of accurate biological data from the time the spring hunt was shut down until right now. They have,indeed,lobbied long and hard with successive government without success until now. Having said that,although, as stated before,we shouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth,BUT,I keep asking myself what and why,now? There's always an ulterior motive when it comes to politics. This wouldn't happen to have been done to offset the revenue loss from the collapse of the Moose hunt among other things,would it? Things that make me go "H-m-m-m-m?"

[SK33T3R]

I don't know but I do know they have bureaucrats with access to data that must've done at least some rudimentary analysis for a policy change. I mean I'm not against pushing back - I'm a hunter too so I prefer policies that favour hunting. I'm just saying, as others have, that I'm not comfortable nominating an "expert" in this matter without more scrutiny. An expert should have formal training, experience, be peer-reviewed, etc. Someone like a biologist perhaps (against, I'm not familiar with natural resources policy making). But why doesn't the OFAH hep with this as the expert? They have analystical and policy making experts on staff.

I agree with you about the bureaucrats and their access to data but we all know how thin and sketchy the MNR data is when it comes to higher profile animals like moose or deer. Hunter surveys is the bulk of their data. They can't afford anything better. Now they want to make big changes to the bear hunt because all of a sudden they have accurate data???? REALLY?? Bears have never been a high profile animal so any data they have isn't worth the toilet paper it's written on. The outfitters and the hunters are the real experts and the MNR should realize this and embrace us. Unfortunately this will never happen because they're smarter then us! In the old days the MNR was there for the animals first and the users second. Now their mandate seems to be supporting the gov't with schemes to generate money and help the gov't of the day secure a better political standing.

[sawbill]

[QUOTE=trimmer21;933907,BUT,I keep asking myself what and why,now?]

I believe its fallout, and long overdue, from police agencies arguing that its MNR's mandate to look after nuisance bears. All one has to do is look at the man/hours/costs regional police and OPP have incurred responding to nuisance bear calls.

Bigr, I never once said I am against the spring bear hunt however I did say I know some outfitters who don't care one way or the other if it does come back. I did say and I still stand by my comments that a spring bear hunt will never resolve the issue of nuisance bears in the Sudbury District. It probably won't resolve the issue in Timmins either.

[sparkplug]

Sir ,Ray. I know Greenhorn through the Ont Hunting Lodge maybe well before your time. I was just trying to see from him if you were the guy that I thought he was writing about. I found it interesting that you hop on my band wagon for NAY.Also found it interesting you use same post to cut and paste.
Now to find out more , are you also the so called fellow that writes about being an knowledgable DEER management man and how to keep the deer herds in trophy status. I have done alot of reading with interest over the years and just want to see for myself if you are the same person I'm thinking. I know we have not met but I WANT TO KNOW WHO YOU ARE THAT IS ASKING ME FOR HIS SUPPORT> I hate getting led down a false path.
This is how the Ont Liberal Party gets support by getting anyone everyone to jump on the wagon by telling people what they need and then dropping all their lies after they got what they wanted-- POWER
then who pays the price.????

[Dude Bro]

Dude, you still need to show us how you're an expert (like others said in your similar thread). I can completely agree that you are very passionate and interested, but being considered an expert is something very different.

I agree. And what if we don't agree with your support for those restrictions? I'll voice my own opinion, thanks.

[Dude Bro]

Here is a template you can use for your responce to the registry. Use the whole thing or change as you see fit. PLEASE PROVIDE A RESPONCE. THE ANTIs ARE!!!!!

I fully support the proposed 5 year pilot spring bear hunt across the 88 WMU's to be included.
The expectation however is that a meaningful wildlife assessment of our bear population be done as with most big game in Ontario, wildlife assessments are done on a WMU too WMU case.
Black bears should not be managed by a provincial model but by each WMU as in all other big game and small game in Ontario. They are not a second class animal or pest.

As too ways to regulate baiting, the question that needs to be answered is WHY is the MNRF asking this question?

The belief to why this is being asked is that it is an "opinion" in this EBR that we will be attracting more animals (Black Bears) closer to homes, other properties, and the general public. While the intent of this opinion has good intentions, hunters and landowners have seen a decrease in human bear interactions once baiting on there property started.
If we want to "pick a distance" from homes, 500 yards would be responsible from a safety standpoint while using hunting equipment and 50 yards from a separate property where hunting is not permitted, add roadways, railways, canoe portages, marked trails and protected areas.

Permitted Timing.
Many hunters travel long distances to do there own baiting in Ontario and sometimes a location is chosen that may need to be changed. 3 weeks in advance of the hunt would be more reasonable in advance of the hunt.

Bait Removal.
Strongly support this as well as the removal of none hunting equipment. Bait and bait transporting equipment should be cleaned up. Only equipment can remain. Bags and general garbage should be cleaned up!

Method of Baiting
It is the responsibility of the hunter to identify there game! We have laws to cover this.
IF we feel the need to add something to facilitate identification, add trail cameras and scouting to this.
Know your game! It is our responsibility anyway so do we need to make a law to do it? NO

Amount of Bait
Why again do we need a limit to the amount? Bear behavior is not to the extent that they will not go look for food once a food source is gone. once the food is gone, they go look for new food sources.
Natural food sources will in fact pull bears off of active baits as there nature is to go to natural sources to clean them up before unnatural baits. Again, Once hunting season is over, clean out bait from site(s) and the bears will move on to other sources of food.
Many hunters travel long distances to there hunting area and some travel hundreds of Km.
Only putting in 10kg of bait out once a week will turn some hunters away from hunting at all. If the intent is to have hunters involved in the hunt, limiting bait to 10kg will have the reverse effect.
A more reasonable amount might be 165lbs (75kg) of bait. This is equal too 3 25kg bags of feed form a coop which has an economic impact on the economy..

A bigger concern that should be looked at is sugar hooking bears or the amount of sugar in bait. Working with companies who provide bear bait as well as an understanding of how much sugar is harmful needs to be addressed more then amounts of bait used.

I would also like to have Ray Smith from Markstay Ontario, consulted by the MNRF on all topics of Black Bear Management in Ontario. He is a known expert in the outdoor community on black bear populations and habits and he is the best person to represent hunters from the outdoor communities in Ontario.
Link to Assessment

If you're going to copy and paste this, be sure to correct the spelling mistakes. And do you know anything about bear management, or are you just an expert on bear hunting?