Upland dogs that will also retreive ducks and geese?

[finsfurfeathers]

So the dog doesn't point? How do you flush on command then?

I like watching a flusher work, but part of that work is being rock-steady on the flush.
Without that, there's no safe shot, which makes the first part of the work of little use - a job only half done.

About the over-handling - if you have to handle a dog too much, then its not the dogs finding the birds...it's the handler using the dogs to find birds...as one trainer told me, if you're going to do that, you might as well just throw rocks in the brush to flush the birds... He could be a bit harsh with pointing things out.

Didn't say the dog doesn't point. What I said I prefer too see the work leading up to it. Once on point than I decide how to approach. With a wing man the set up is easy shooter in position, dog on point handler flushes bird. Own my own there are times when the cover necessitates the dog to flush the bird while I'm out in the shooting lane. That's a skill I train into my dog as it works for me. Saying a pointer that flushes on command is any less of a pointer doesn't work for me.

[Waftrudnir]

Waftrudnir, the dog you are referring to is better known as the "flointer" AKA "plusher" - a dog whose performance usually is best described as being at the heart of a VERY frustrating hunt,....

LOL
Is it common enough that there is actually a name for it or did you just come up with that?

Maybe the reason was that people didn't understand the two different concepts well enough to switch from one to the other. However, I doubt that nowadays someone spends a small fortune on a pup without reading up on what they are intended for and watch a video of what that actually looks like.
I think one issue affecting versatile breeds is that folks don't pay much attention in what order they train the dog on different types of hunting. A problem one will never have with a specialist. Kind of shows once more that it is important to know what you really need before choosing a breed.

[Sharon]

[QUOTEFinfurfeathers,

Got to disagree with you there. The way you hunt with your pointer is your choice. No need to slam those who prefer a different style.
As you said a pointer's range is never an issue on that I agree however there are occasions I need the dog working tight to be effective. More than happy to read some of your hunts this year in the thread "request for more upland stories" and compare hunts. [/QUOTE] fff



Mercy. Ugo "slamming" someone's choice. Now that's funny. Anyone who knows Ugo , knows he's very cautious about offending anyone.

Let's get back to the excellent discussion.

[Jakezilla]

Just finished reading this thread.


A Brittany is just as capable as any other dog to sit calmly in a blind.


A dog that flushes on command will more than likely start taking birds out on their own, especially when out of sight. So persue this at your own risk.


To hunt a pointing dog most effectively they need to be able to work independently and out of sight. They also need to be trained to level that they can be trusted on game when out of sight. I find the ideal range for hunting pointing dogs on grouse is around 100yds to 150yds. When your dog is in visual range, you have the hunter and the dog putting pressure on the game. A good, fast dog that works farther to the front can get to the game faster and get it pinned before it gets pushed out.

[Sharon]

A video some might enjoy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...PI&app=desktop

[Ugo]

Loved that video Sharon! Yup, there is something for us all.
Actually Wafrudnir, I did come up with those names (flointer/plusher) as I have seen many - too many over the years. You make a good point about seeking out the right dog. Many years ago, when I knew even less about breeding than I do now, I had a litter of setters here. A chap came by interested in buying a pup. When he arrived, we spoke about his preferred hunting species. Subsequently, I declined selling him a pup. He wasn't very happy when he left BUT he came back some time later to show me his wonderful Lab. He couldn't thank me enough.
There is nothing wrong with a pointing dog that you send in for the flush. It requires dedicated training and unwavering consistency in maintaining that style of performance. Most folk just want to go out for the occasional recreational hunting and can't be bothered.
As I said, if you hunt woodcock by yourself, you know how challenging it can be to crawl through the hawthorn/dogwoods to flush AND still try to get off a decent shot.
If this is your preferred style of hunting, you should do exactly that. Life's too short to hunt unhappily.

[terrym]

A video some might enjoy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...PI&app=desktop

that's impressive.

[finsfurfeathers]

A video some might enjoy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...PI&app=desktop

Yup now that's what I'm talking about. For me this is what I would consider great dog work.

[welsh]

As I said, if you hunt woodcock by yourself, you know how challenging it can be to crawl through the hawthorn/dogwoods to flush AND still try to get off a decent shot.

The solution is to use a flushing dog, which will reliably flush that bird for you ... usually while you're crawling through the hawthorn/dogwoods, in no position to get off a decent shot....

[Fox]

I guess I better jump in on this again and give you all a better idea of what is going on in my head.

Ok, first off, I do not like crating a dog when I am away but I also will not have a dog running free range around my house, at least not at the start, so our plan is to have a 10x10 kennel with nice dog house setup around our livestock so that when we go off to work in the morning we can put the dog outside with a little space. We are gone about 9 hours, I think that is too long to expect the dog to hold it.

Due to this I need to have a dog that has a coat on it so that it can buck the weather.

We also do not want to have a large dog, I had been toying with the idea of a lab but labs now get massive and I really don't want to deal with a monster dog. We do most of our waterfowl hunting over fields and ducks over water would be one of the least used tasks that the dog would have, just nice to be able to have something that would like the water and retrieve in water as a secondary thing. This is why I am not so worried about sitting still, most water ducks for me would be jump shot anyway on small marshes and in the fall not the winter, I don't like ice, something about being in the water when it is so cold it would kill me fast makes me uneasy.

I like the idea of a pointer because of my experience with my favourite beagle. Buster was no good for deer but he really liked to be in the bush with me and would range close. When we would get into good terrain he almost started to go birdy, it was weird to watch a 13in beagle nose down hunting a game bird but on many occasions this is what he would do. I could watch him go and get an idea of where the bird would be but the flushing mentality generally did not give me a chance to get the shot at the angle that I would have liked. I would love to be able to walk up on a bird pointed by my dog in a way that gave me the best chance at a shot.

We also have a cat and we have livestock, I cannot have a dog that is so crazy that makes our cat go nuts or terrorize the animals, I know that this is something of training as they grow up but some of this is built in.

So based on this and what I like as a breed from being around them I have a list of dogs that I would love to own but why they may not work.

German Short Haired Pointer - I would love one but the short hair hurts them for the weather
Lab - The breed standard it too big, flushing dog, roudy when young and not aware of their size
Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retreiver - Very costly, hard to find with hunting genetics, insane and documented anxiety issues
Springer Spaniel - Flusher rather than a pointer, I have been told that they end up being a single person dog often, larger at 50-55lbs
Brittany Spaniel - A little small for geese, does not want to sit still, can be over sensitive to training

Due to all of this I am really leaning towards the Brittany, I know a few of the other breeds mentioned need to be examined but being south of Ottawa travel is something to be considered, I have no problem putting a few hours in to go get a dog but having to bring something in from out of province or out of country is not going to happen for us.