some people are idiots

[DGearyFTE]

What really does not make sense here is that are we not using gas electricity generators to generate this "clean electricity".

Someone behind this flunked out of high school physics. You cannot burn gas to generate electricity and then use the electricity to generate heat more efficiently than just burning gas to generate heat.

I would hope that when people look at basic logic behind this, it will die quickly and quietly.

Werner,
Applying facts and the laws of physics to this can come to no good. It simply serves to confuse the idealogy of the Liberal mindset.

If we were to look at the amortized costs associated with wind and solar vs the enery produced the break even point will not occur in our lifetime. In fact, if the maintenance costs are included it will be the next century before this happens, if ever.

We, the taxpayers of Ontario, are funding an artificially derived industry imposed by a government drunk on it's own power and blinded by an idealogy that refuses to understand that Green energy is not viable with current technologies available. Why else would the Liberals dismantle fully functioning coal plants that were environmentally sound to be replaced with an energy source that is at the peril of the weather.

[terrym]

Weren't the Libranos bragging they had replaced the dirty coal burning plants with clean gas plants? Clearly the gas industry has refused to pay the $$$ shakedown from the Libranos. A big fat campaign contribution will make this go away.

[DGearyFTE]

A big fat campaign contribution will make this go away.

Yup! True statement!

[Rugger]

My guess is the Natural Gas industry didn't attend any of those private $6k a plate get togethers with Wynne? Dig deep enough and I would not be surprised to find liberal party people deeply embedded financially with the wind industry.

This made me chuckle cynically, gag and then cry a little...
I'm thinking (hopefully) that this is all just politicking, it's all just a little too vague; no timeline and notice that theEministerdidn't say what the NG would be replaced with: "Home heating in thefuture is going to come from sources other than natural gas.”
It would take so long to make this happen that I think it's just them saying things that think certain people want to hear.
I wonder if their short-term game is to drive up the value of the Hydro1 shares ahead of the next sell off...

The Libranos are forcing communities to take solar, putting up more wind (and ignoring transportation safety orders) and not upgrading Niagara falls....

Do you have a link for the "not upgrading" of the Sir Adam Beck hydro station? I can't find much but all I can find is about how much upgrading HAS been done in the past 10 years. http://www.niagarafallsreview.ca/201...-niagara-river

[terrym]

I wonder if their short-term game is to drive up the value of the Hydro1 shares ahead of the next sell off...
r

That would be less than honest. How could you think that of this administration after a decade of exemplary service? I mean disregard the multitude of scandals , boondoggles and police investigations about coverups and evidence destruction. Have they not managed our finances and positioned our children for a robust and useful future? Hey, wait a minute..........

[Rugger]

lol, to be honest I didn't even think that hard... seemed to just come naturally... or is it nurtureally (I hope it's not neuterally )

[mosquito]

Do you have a link for the "not upgrading" of the Sir Adam Beck hydro station? I can't find much but all I can find is about how much upgrading HAS been done in the past 10 years. http://www.niagarafallsreview.ca/201...-niagara-river

No problem, you are right there have been some upgrades, the latest about 3 years ago but I remember there was several planned expansions that were killed.
There is the abandoned plant.
http://www.vanishingpoint.ca/ontario-generating-station

The Niagara Tunnel brings power to Beck 1& 2 but I cannot find much on the planned expansion of the turbines either now. I remember a few years back there was talk of a project that was supposed to double the capacity but the exact cancellation I can't find anymore either. I recall it was $6B in expansion and upgrades (MAYBE... MAYBE as part of the Niagara tunnel???) but.... IF I am right though to put it in perspective, each windmill costs about $3million installed when I looked it up, Ontario is putting in about 6,800 so to be conservative at a bulk install price of $1M that is $6,800,000,000. I can't find the cancellation, maybe it was just a proposal?? but I don't see either at all now so I will blame someone that bought me a molson or labatts and I will now go have a Hockley's Stout and since I can't back the cancelled part up I retract the cancellation part for now.

I didn't even find it here.
http://www.windontario.ca/

But I did find this article of interest.
http://www.niagarafallsreview.ca/201...ly-as-designed
Nearly two years after water first started flowing through the new Niagara Tunnel to the Sir Adam Beck generating stations, a Niagara Falls regional councillor says the $1.5-billion project is “not producing anything.”

“Sir Adam Beck 1 is at 20% (capacity), Sir Adam Beck 2 is also less than capacity and our tunnel is at zero … not producing any power,” Reg. Coun. Bart Maves said during a regional council meeting Thursday night.

Ontario Power Generation, however, said the 10.2-kilometre tunnel, which carries water from the upper Niagara River to the generating stations, is “performing exactly as designed.”

Spokesman Neal Kelly said he believes Maves is confusing capacity and energy.

“The tunnel doesn’t add capacity, it provides more water, more fuel, to the stations so it can produce more energy,” Kelly told QMI Agency Niagara on Friday.

“It allows us to produce more energy when the system requires it — when the system operator requires us to … OPG doesn’t control demand, we respond to demand.”

Maves said the generating stations in Niagara Falls have a capacity of about 2,300 megawatts, but they’re only using about 1,200.

“We’re operating our generating facilities way under capacity.”

Maves said he was getting the information from the website, live.gridwatch.ca

“We have such a glut of over supply of energy in the province right now, we don’t need to add more,” said Maves.

“(The Niagara Tunnel project) was necessary, good and useful, but we’re not utilizing it for a number of reasons. We’ve added so much other power. Every time we add more solar and wind, it just reduces what we would use out of our Beck generating stations.”

Maves said Ontario is exporting power, “but we can’t get a good price for it.

“Hydro prices have gone up over 100% in 10 years. We’ve lost 300,000 manufacturing jobs. We’ve pushed them to the U.S. for cheaper power. They’re selling cheap power to our manufacturers from us.”



Right this moment according to gridwatch ALL of Ontario's wind is 1582 Mw (one of the highest numbers I have seen for it) while Sir Adam Beck 1 and 2 are 157 of 453 capacity and 1033 of 1455 capacity and we are exporting (at a loss) 1977 Mw.


http://www.torontosun.com/2015/08/12...ricity-in-june
Electricity exports cost Ontario taxpayers $200 million in June

[JBen]

Does no one but me see the upside to all this? I mean it, despite how utterly ridiculous (nothing new for left ideology, am almost reminded of David Miller).

Its also utterly perfect karma.

Do it.

Who will this hurt and badly.
Not rural Ontarians who already get screwed by ridiculous delivery charges, have to figure out good ways to heat their homes and are well adapted. Sure it might be 62% of Ontario that uses Nat Gad, but thats no-one in rural Ontario.

It will only affect those in the GTA and Ottawa primarily. Those very same people who vote for them. I can only imagine the bellyaching and cries if this gains traction.

Scuze me while I play a fiddle

[terrym]

I really don't know anything about the ratio of gas users. But you see quite a few rural homes with bulk gas tanks.

[mosquito]

Does no one but me see the upside to all this? I mean it, despite how utterly ridiculous (nothing new for left ideology, am almost reminded of David Miller).

Its also utterly perfect karma.

Do it.

Who will this hurt and badly.
Not rural Ontarians who already get screwed by ridiculous delivery charges, have to figure out good ways to heat their homes and are well adapted. Sure it might be 62% of Ontario that uses Nat Gad, but thats no-one in rural Ontario.

It will only affect those in the GTA and Ottawa primarily. Those very same people who vote for them. I can only imagine the bellyaching and cries if this gains traction.

Scuze me while I play a fiddle

Actually Natural Gas is the predominant fuel to heat in most Ontario homes south of Shelburne probably. Then there is the food industry, a friend of ours runs a restaurant and their monthly for all the cooking is just over $300 gas but for the lights and ventilation is almost $900 for the electricity. To willingly convert from electricity to gas to heat or cook is an idiot move.

There are literally several hundred natural gas wells in Lake Erie along that could supply the province for years if all other sources were shut off.
http://www.offshore-mag.com/articles...roduction.html

I don't know if they are doing any more exploration and it has been over 3 decades since I was a grunt on the dive boat out of Port Alma so I am not sure what is currently going on but there are atleast 3 main lines going out into the lake and probably close to 200 wells drilled (in and out of use at the time). It was interesting working on the boat, the diver still used a Mark 5 due to the muddy bottom of Lake Erie. He was in his 50's then and told about a hole collapse where he ended up 10 feet under the bottom of Lake Erie... he still had the suction in his hand and dug himself out but swore that if he was using anything but a Mark 5 he would have died from being crushed.

If this ideologue gets her way it will more than ruin the economy, it will ruin the future of Ontario, between election reform and idiots in Ontario Liberals are they actually TRYING to ruin Ontario?
62% of Ontario Homes Set to Pay $3,000 More a Year Says Minister Murray
http://www.whitbyoshawa.ontariopc.co...inister-Murray

Some are getting very rich though...

Like this one, all new nice and clean... http://www.oodmag.com/community/atta...4&d=1463177609