EBR Proposal 012-8104;8105

[Splaker]

By chance is that tropic cascade?
as mentioned "ripple effects" and if we should have learned anything by now, our track record at being smarter than nature. Is pretty woeful. So myself, I'd prefer the side of caution.

Chernobyl
as I said to Mike until we are prepared to cull the human race, (in this case primarily to the south) "natural" balance is impossible, there's nothing natural at all about what is or isn't occurring. We screw it up all the time.

The extreme environmental movement actually does intend to "cull" - they talk about ideal human populations of 500 mill. Anti-family, anti-capitalism, anti-technology.. lets all live in tree house and graze on nuts and berries.

[JBen]

Haha.
Mother nature is trying (super bugs, and others), though personally suspect we will do it to ourselves.
We are the only species on the planet that thinks we should, and tries to live forever. And as a result......

Here's a "thought". Throughout history nature has been fairly adept at "balancing". Coyotes have proven to be highly adaptable, highly resilient. Maybe natures way of providing a numerous, effective predator into S And C Ontario that can handle being hunted (has anyone smashed them down anywhere for good?), a long with Urban sprawl. Nature has also been trying to balance APP following our screw ups there. Funny that in Chernobyl, it's the beaver coming back that is largely credited with a lot.......these aren't Wolves, their hybrids more than happy to breed with Coyotes.

So why would we want to move the goal post


again

[Splaker]

Haha.
Mother nature is trying (super bugs, and others), though personally suspect we will do it to ourselves.
We are the only species on the planet that thinks we should, and tries to live forever. And as a result......

Here's a "thought". Throughout history nature has been fairly adept at "balancing". Coyotes have proven to be highly adaptable, highly resilient. Maybe natures way of providing a numerous, effective predator into S And C Ontario that can handle being hunted (has anyone smashed them down anywhere for good?), a long with Urban sprawl. Nature has also been trying to balance APP following our screw ups there. Funny that in Chernobyl, it's the beaver coming back that is largely credited with a lot.......these aren't Wolves, their hybrids more than happy to breed with Coyotes.

So why would we want to move the goal post


again

So do you guys think the "red" wolf of the Appalachians is a bogus breed too? Is it possible that these things (including what we see in APP) are true wolves, but not the greys you get further north/west?

[JBen]

Suppose anything is possible, but given what dna testing has confirmed.......given that wolves tend to have packs of 4-6 and 8 is considered large, coyotes???? ( I've seen a pack of 8 of these in 53...watched them circle one guys stand with zero fear of man ( he was yelling at them) does that sound like wolves?

...given a breed/species like Coyotes.(natures super bug).....maybe nature is breeding any few "wolves" left out of existence......maybe nature is replacing wolves in the area with Coyotes, as it has in S Ontario giving beaver (decimated) a break, and more. In short maybe nature intends and knows theres only room for one "canid" predator. Maybe nature knows that while coyotes will also take down large mammals (M/D) that they to can use a break, because M/D/B are the primary source for Wolves. coyote not so much, they will eat anything ( I'm guessing beaver isn't high on their list).

why move the goal post again. Why protect them ( and coyotes) more. Is that status quo not "good enough/working"?
Yes it is, read the response by the OFBM and their own report ( their admissions and omissions)

[Dude Bro]

OFAH has a form to submit comments on their website:
https://www.ofah.org/issues/wolf-coy...-trapping-ban/

[trimmer21]

OFAH has a form to submit comments on their website:
https://www.ofah.org/issues/wolf-coy...-trapping-ban/

There's a map showing the new areas where the ban is proposed. When those folks find out,it'll be SHTF time because it's encompassing prime hunting and trapping areas where it's really a big deal in northern CKL,Peterborough and Hastings Counties. This is just nuts!

[redd foxx]

given that wolves tend to have packs of 4-6 and 8 is considered large

Flying in winter north of Nakina we often saw packs of 10 or more timber wolves on the trail of moose and caribou.

[trappermatt]

So do you guys think the "red" wolf of the Appalachians is a bogus breed too? Is it possible that these things (including what we see in APP) are true wolves, but not the greys you get further north/west?

I know trappers involved with the red wolf program in the U.S. And they will tell you that the whole program is a billion dollar flop due to coyote introgression , if there truly was a real red wolf when they started , there isn't now, it's all crossbread mutts

[JBen]

Flying in winter north of Nakina we often saw packs of 10 or more timber wolves on the trail of moose and caribou.

Most reading I've ever seen, say/suggest they tend to be 5-10 in number. While there are always exceptions (there might be a pack of say 13, there might be a pack of 2 or 3). So 8 in a pack would be considered large, getting close to the point where typically younger offspring, disperse and start forming their own. So ignoring mortality keeping a pack under say 10. As it starts to get crowded, maybe at 8, if 2 or 3 split off, it resets the pack to 5.

"Life History and Reproduction

[COLOR=#363636]Wolves live in packs. Most packs have four to nine members, but the size can range from as few as two wolves to as many as 15. Occasionally, a pack can increase to 30 members until some individuals break off to find new territory and form their own pack."

https://www.nwf.org/Wildlife/Wildlif...Gray-Wolf.aspx

Don't know off hand what the typical pack size for Coyotes is, but for wolves it tends to be "small". Hollywood and TV shows like to show packs of 10+ (so much more romantic) and while that does occur it's not the norm.

Either way, I have run into a pack of these hybrids in 53. First day of rifle in 2013 that was. They came in, circled one guys tree stand for about 30 seconds while he barked and yelled at them. He got some great video of it on his cell phone. Afterwards 4 of them approached another guys stand, with two of them belly crawling to within 10 feet of him.

Two things:
1) Does that sound like normal wolf behaviour?
2) If packs in the park are hitting the upper end of typical pack size...Well that suggest theres too many of them for the park

[JBen]

Trimmer, re the map of the proposed area's.
Notice how the biggest chunk extends due south. As you said, its huge and also perhaps "oddly" get really close to the northern edge of 73, and is on the edge 74 A and B. Say from Lindsay to Omemee or PTBO. Where just 15 minutes south is massive amounts of Urban Sprawl now and coming as the 407 links Brooklin (just South of Lindsay to Orono, just South of Omemee.)

Gee I can't imagine that will be good for all the various animals on the food chain being pushed right into the jaws of a steel trap. Nor for all that territory with unchecked, unharassed free passes for predators running and breeding amok. Not like Coyotes already.......