Ontora neglected by the OFAH

North of the French and Mattawa rivers a growing trend of access and road closures continue to grow as we speak as far as crown land users in the form of hunters,anglers and trappers ,other outdoor enthousiasts are being denied access to some areas, roads ,lakes and rivers. Ontora is a organisation fighting for equal access users to crown land. Noto and our government are the two entities responsible for these closures. The attachement I have sent you will see the OFAH comments as far as their stance towards Ontora{use to be Nora} vs Our MNR and Noto as far as access restrictions and road,lake and river closures. Forgive if I am wrong the OFAH represents Ontario's hunters anglers and trappers. Noto represents all outfitters . I will tell you why the apparent voice of Anglers and hunters of Ontario have decided to sit on the white picket fence on this subject instead of representing it's anglers and hunters . It is due to the fact that the OFAH would lose all Northern Ontario Outfitters that pay for add space in the Ontario Out Of doors Magazine. Once again this federation has acted more like a "madame for hire" instead a hunter,angler advocate. Their should be a new rule with this federation if they want to act like a" bloated pig" at the trof when it comes to choosing monetary gains over angler and hunter representation they must eliminate their catch phrase "the voice of anglers and hunters" from their logo.
9 September, 2008
http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/a3ae7...6%3Fs%3D32&r=G papatom @ 4:45 pm

Hi George, things are starting to move and soon we'll have an organization that will defend our right for lawful and equal access to our own land.
Concerning the mtg in Sudbury OFAH wasn't invited as this was an exploratory session.
As far as OFAH's position on the subject, NORA's Simon Guillet asked OFAH several times before he finally got this reply where they admitted supporting public access restrictions…quote, " Therefore, in order to represent both groups, OFAH fights against excess MNR/NOTO road closures and too many MNR/NOTO access restrictions, but agrees that some road closures and access restrictions are necessary to allow remote tourism members to run more profitable enterprises by offering a "remote" experience to their guests [I would have to say Yes, and this is confirmed by the policies I sent around earlier. In many, no most, districts our guys function well on Crown land along side remote tourism, northwest is pretty good in this regard, however in units like Wawa this is an extreme case of out of balance toward tourism interests with massive (3km buffers) overprotection]
Tom

Just wondering if anyone has any updates on the progress of opening up crown land for all of us to use? Are there any new developments? There's a couple of lakes i was looking at getting into this summer, but i have been told the roads are blocked by big mounds of gravel, or they are dug up, either way preventing travel. What if i somehow did manage to get around this, am i in the wrong?

No good changes yet and I doubt there will be any in the near or distant future.

And unfortunately, you will likely be charged if found on one of these posted and blocked taxpayer paid for access roads.

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Originally Posted by sawbill

No good changes yet and I doubt there will be any in the near or distant future.

And unfortunately, you will likely be charged if found on one of these posted and blocked taxpayer paid for access roads.

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Might be a good idea to get charged,that way a court challenge can be started and outdoors people could throw in a fee bucks and see if the road closures hold water under the legislation they are using.

I suspect ONtoras lawyers have already looked at the legislation. What they're really waiting for is enough funding to proceed with challenges to the government and that legislation. That's going to take big bucks because gov't will ensure its a long, drawn out battle.

And when the Algonquin Land Claim settlement displaces thousands and thousands of hunters, where will they go?

"Not my Problem" says the uncaring Government.

I'm kinda glad this land claim is happening. Ever since tourist outfitters have been successful in getting these northern access roads closed Ontora has been fighting the fight alone. The silent support from the south has been deafening.

Those faced with this land claim which too restricts access to residents now see whats been going on in the north for years and maybe, just maybe they'll support each others cause.

We really need to get onto this item by calling or e-mailing our local MP's. We need a lot more information,though.The trouble is that there's so few of us that we can be easily ignored. We all thought that gun control was the big bugaboo that we needed to get rid of,but,obviously,this issue is worse than the GC ever thought of being. It won't matter a hill of beans if there's GC or not if there's no where left to hunt.

So if this carries on could you think it conceivable, that one day maybe you will not be able to hunt on crown land unless you pay fees to an outfitter? I do understand the outfitters perspective but they have the capabilities to buy land.

The outfitters aren't buying the land, they're pushing legislation that protects their business by blocking access to Ontario residents to lands and waters they 'traditionally' use for their mostly non-resident guests.
The rub is this: in many northern portions of the Province residents of Ontario cannot access roads that they helped pay for to fish lakes that they've purchased angling licences for.

Went to Armstrong ... Majority of the "roads" that head into back lakes we're posted... And we were warned by the co that f we are spotted on them there would be hefty fines coming our way...

Gangland Ontario?! :scream:

I think regardless of this stupid blockage of crown land I will proceed to try these lakes. Should I be fined I will definitely bring it to the attention of the media and hope they make it front page news (i know unlikely). Basically i see it as one party having its hands in the other partys pocket. This is a sad statement i know, but i guess the idea of helping the many for a better cause goes out the window when you involve large amounts of money. Its sad to think that today we are restricted from accessing all crown land, we only have rights to certain areas. Tomorrow another area becomes fenced off, etc.......until all your left with is a playstation 3 and big game hunter video game. Who even knows if my children will get to experience the wild unknown of the back roads of northern ontario. Its maddening. Just goes to show you the government never has our best interests in mind, it just caters to the highest bidder. I guess my taxes don't add up.

sorry about the rant, just had to get it off my chest,


birdbuff

Thing is people in NO know all about the restrictions... It has been in the paper in Timmins. The MPP for Timmins James Bay is aware has been made aware of the issue. It is the Southern Ontario majority that knows nothing of this and THEY are the only ones with the numbers to do anything about it.

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Originally Posted by Fishy Wishy

Thing is people in NO know all about the restrictions... It has been in the paper in Timmins. The MPP for Timmins James Bay is aware has been made aware of the issue. It is the Southern Ontario majority that knows nothing of this and THEY are the only ones with the numbers to do anything about it.

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This is the first I have heard if this.. I don't think anyone up here knows that.. We were all under the impression that all that bush is accessible.

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Originally Posted by Fishy Wishy

Thing is people in NO know all about the restrictions... It has been in the paper in Timmins. The MPP for Timmins James Bay is aware has been made aware of the issue. It is the Southern Ontario majority that knows nothing of this and THEY are the only ones with the numbers to do anything about it.

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The hunters from southern Ontario know about it,I faced this 15 years ago up in the Hornepayne/White River area.Best hunting spots closed for the first two weeks of the rifle season.Major pia when you scout out the place in the summer and find out its posted in the fall, they even pulled up a bridge to prevent access.

Not sure why you would say, "I don't think anyone up here knows that". Everyone up here knows that, everyone has experienced the ditch dug out, the loads of gravel blocking the entrance, the missing bridges and the warning signs. It is you in the South that doesn't see the land continually being shut off from you. I agree with the original poster, the OFAH isn't doing half enough to end this and is doing nothing to make you aware that it is happening. As happens again and again, they have been bought out by the advertising dollar. My money is not going to the OFAH, I am putting it where it will be spent representing me in the North.

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Originally Posted by woody1948

Not sure why you would say, "I don't think anyone up here knows that". Everyone up here knows that, everyone has experienced the ditch dug out, the loads of gravel blocking the entrance, the missing bridges and the warning signs. It is you in the South that doesn't see the land continually being shut off from you. I agree with the original poster, the OFAH isn't doing half enough to end this and is doing nothing to make you aware that it is happening. As happens again and again, they have been bought out by the advertising dollar. My money is not going to the OFAH, I am putting it where it will be spent representing me in the North.

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I know there's been lots of threads on this subject,here,but,does anyone know what the "official position" is from the OFAH? I don't seem to recall ever reading or hearing anything from them.

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

The hunters from southern Ontario know about it,I faced this 15 years ago up in the Hornepayne/White River area.Best hunting spots closed for the first two weeks of the rifle season.Major pia when you scout out the place in the summer and find out its posted in the fall, they even pulled up a bridge to prevent access.

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Gilroy,
I will state SOME hunters and maybe even anglers from Southern Ontario are aware of it...but they are far from a majority voice that would be required for it to get attention...in fact many of them are the ones benefitting as they are using the outfitters' services and the exclusivity this creates.

Dare I say that some of these tourist lodges are advertisers with OOD. I don't know if this is the case or not but that's the only valid reason for the OFAH not making a bigger deal out of it.

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Originally Posted by sawbill

Dare I say that some of these tourist lodges are advertisers with OOD. I don't know if this is the case or not but that's the only valid reason for the OFAH not making a bigger deal out of it.

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So,am I to understand that even the mighty OFAH lets money trump taking a militant,pro-active approach with certain practices by certain advertisers and governments with adverse policies to the detriment of anglers and hunters whom they purport to represent? That sounds a tad hipocritical,doesn't it? I wonder.
Something doesn't sound quite right with that.

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

So,am I to understand that even the mighty OFAH lets money trump taking a militant,pro-active approach with certain practices by certain advertisers and governments with adverse policies to the detriment of anglers and hunters whom they purport to represent? That sounds a tad hipocritical,doesn't it? I wonder.
Something doesn't sound quite right with that.

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Well I'm no expert and I'm not one to spread rumours.

I have heard/read that the OFAH membership is highly skewed to Southern parts of our province, very lightly represented/joined in Northern Ontario. ( Is this true?? I dunno never cared to look it up)

Also I have heard that the OFAH's lack of action on issues like this one affecting Nothern Ontario Anglers and Hunters has lost the OFAH favour in much of Northern Ontario.

Much of Northern Ontario A&Hs see the OFAH as an advocate for Southern Ontario A&H issues... (Turkey, Elk)

Again these are not my statements just things I've heard and read others say/type.

Next what I will say is these access restrictions favour the lodge owners, and their clients...who (big d'uh moment ahead) aren't locals but those from afar...Southern Onrario is afar from where many/most of these restrictions are. OOD is full of not only adverts for these lodges, but stories and photos of the writers' & editors' trips. Same with Angler & Hunter TV.

I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions.

Will my post stay or will it go now?

First off, I said I don't know if that's the case or not. But its certainly a possibility and the only reason I can come up with their lack of support for Ontora. The OFAH was so much more vocal in support of hunters when it came to the spring bear hunt so why not as vocal with these road closures?

Perhaps it would be worth starting a petition, making our mp's aware of this issue. I think it is in everyones best interest (north and southern ontario) to band together on an issue like this. I live in southern ontario but the MAJORITY of my hunting and fishing is done in northern ontario. I could fish and hunt in southern ontario more, but i quite enjoy the solitude of the north. If that gets taken away, bring on the insanity.


bb

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Originally Posted by Birdbuff

Perhaps it would be worth starting a petition, making our mp's aware of this issue. I think it is in everyones best interest (north and southern ontario) to band together on an issue like this. I live in southern ontario but the MAJORITY of my hunting and fishing is done in northern ontario. I could fish and hunt in southern ontario more, but i quite enjoy the solitude of the north. If that gets taken away, bring on the insanity.


bb

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1. MPP (PROVINCIAL JURISDICTION)
2. Solitude is what the outfitters are selling and why they are fighting for the restriction...they say losing the exclusivity their bush planes once provided hurts their business.
3. OntORA has been fighting this fight for a long time..the MPPs in the affected areas already know about it. The party in power kniws about it the Minister of NR knows about it but chooses to act more like the Minister of tourism.
4. The OFAH pays lip service to this issue...despite OntORA seeking to partner on this issue.

Blah Blah Blah.

Knock yerself out. See how you can help the guys fighting the good fight.

You got it right Fishy.

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Originally Posted by Wahoo

And when the Algonquin Land Claim settlement displaces thousands and thousands of hunters, where will they go?

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Hunters will continue to go hunting on those lands because the man power isn't there to enforce it.

I know of a hunt camp on the northeast corner of Algonquin Park that has been around since the 1920's. The Algonquin land claim threatens to remove them once everything is settled. The camp members will take legal action and already have the media ready to follow them once things go bad . People won't take this and groups are forming to fight this.

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Originally Posted by yellow dog

I know of a hunt camp on the northeast corner of Algonquin Park that has been around since the 1920's. The Algonquin land claim threatens to remove them once everything is settled. The camp members will take legal action and already have the media ready to follow them once things go bad . People won't take this and groups are forming to fight this.

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The Algonquin Land Claim is another thread ( actually many threads of they weren't lock and/or deleted). Totally unrelated to restricted access by MNR decree for the purposes of maintaining exclusivity to "remote" tourist operators.

There is one group that nobody has mentioned yet that you should contact. That is your local OFAH Zone Chair and it's directors, send an email or call and ask for this topic to be discussed at the next zone meeting as well as being documented in the minutes which are then sent onto head office. If all zones support addressing this, then the paid staff (Greg Farrant) at the OFAH will have to change their approach to this subject.

i have been to several zone E meetings in which there are less than 20 people show up other than the annual election meeting.

If we don't give the OFAH head office staff a list of things to work on, they will just do what ever they think they should do.

Mr. Wilson, this is not new, OntRA has been fighting this for years now. And the OFAH has been contacted at all levels. This idea that this is something new, attests to the fact that the OFAH has turned a blind eye to the issue.
The way to beat this is not by individuals breaking laws, but by Sportsmen groups fighting this at the Political level. This is hard to do when most people do not even know about it. One good article in a prominent outdoor magazine would probably do this, but most of these magazines are advertisement driven.
i would love to hear from the OFAH on this topic, and would like to see a short list of what they have been doing to change this trend.

^^^^^Woody gets it.

Buy your own land and hunt it while its still cheap. Don,t count on the gov to save your hunting rights.

^^^^^^ Farmer doesn't get it.

No " Farmer " doesn't get it or for some reason thinks that a private operation should have access control to thousands and thousands of acres of crown land and lakes . . Yes OFAH have their head buried somewhere .

TD

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Originally Posted by woody1948

Mr. Wilson, this is not new, OntRA has been fighting this for years now. And the OFAH has been contacted at all levels. This idea that this is something new, attests to the fact that the OFAH has turned a blind eye to the issue.
The way to beat this is not by individuals breaking laws, but by Sportsmen groups fighting this at the Political level. This is hard to do when most people do not even know about it. One good article in a prominent outdoor magazine would probably do this, but most of these magazines are advertisement driven.
i would love to hear from the OFAH on this topic, and would like to see a short list of what they have been doing to change this trend.

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Woody,
I fully recognize that this is not a new subject, a simple google search will show this has happened for a few years.

Are you positive that majority of the OFAH Zones have all addressed this with the OFAH including the zones on Southern Ontario? I know for a fact that Zone E has not.

"A good article in a prominent outdoor magazine" would only be preaching to the choir and the majority of Ontario still wouldn't know about it.

i feel the OFAH has drifted away from their founding principles of "Anglers and hunters representing the rights of anglers and hunters" and has become "anglers and hunters representing corporate advertising clients, corporate cash donors and if our members needs are similar to the corporate donors, well we represent them too"

I believe it's time for a serious review of the entire OFAH organization.
Is owning the Angler and Hunter TV show a profitable business and what other benefits does it provide the OFAH ?
is putting the OFAH Hotline news letter in the Ontario Out of Doors magazine the most cost effective way to deliver the news letter taking into account the technological advances of the internet?
Is keeping a cottage on Weslemkoon Lake near Gimour that was bequeathed to the OFAH and only for head office staff use ethical? is this really what the land donors wishes were for the property?
is having every OFAH zone boundary drawn in a manner so that it touches a Great Lake just a way to justify sucking money out of each zone to support Atlantic stocking efforts.

So many more questions.... But where else can I get a 3 million dollar liability insurance policy that only kicks in after all other insurance policies I may have are paid out first. don't most insurance companies send a copy of the policy after renewal each year.

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Originally Posted by woody1948

One good article in a prominent outdoor magazine would probably do this, but most of these magazines are advertisement driven.

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Well, Canada has only two prominent outdoor magazines, and one of them is owned by the OFAH.

I felt at the time that Rogers' sale of OOD to the OFAH was a bad thing. The deal by which an OOD subscription was made a perk of OFAH membership already created an entirely too snuggly relationship between the magazine and the OFAH and actually transferring ownership only makes that worse. The editorial job of an outdoor magazine is to serve its readers, and to do that Ontario Out of Doors needs to be able to report critically on Ontario's largest outdoor lobby. We can's assume that the OFAH is always going to serve the needs of Ontario's anglers and hunters, but the chances of any real criticism of OFAH policies appearing in OOD are now zero.

The other prominent magazine is Outdoor Canada but their national focus makes it less likely they'll do a story on a local controversy.

Outdoor magazines have never done a particularly good job at reporting on issues like this at the best of times, partly because most readers want how-to/where-to and partly because reporting on issues often means telling the readership things they don't want to hear.

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Originally Posted by B Wilson

is putting the OFAH Hotline news letter in the Ontario Out of Doors magazine the most cost effective way to deliver the news letter taking into account the technological advances of the internet?

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Probably. The OFAH is not losing money publishing OOD.

^^^^^^ B. Wilson lays it down heavy!

^^^^^^ Welsh with a good analysis of the OFAH/OOD situation.

This is a very very dangerous precedent that will definitely find its way here, to Alberta. The idea of letting outfitters have exclusive on public land, is really allowing Aliens to hunt your land. What would happen for example if you did go on this land? Would you get charged with trespassing? Hardly!!

I do know a lot of outfitters actually are aliens from the US or elsewhere. So it is illegal for an alien to light a fire on crown land then the government is promoting the breaking of law for monies or even promoting racism. Very dangerous precedent, indeed, and certainly unconstitutional!!

I see a really nasty battle on the horizon. I think it's way past high time we took the bull by the horns by hammering the OFAH to publish any existing policy pertaining to this issue and to show,definitvely,what they have been doing about it and how they intend to follow up or,more importantly,if they choose to ignore the issue,completely. That,in and of itself,would be very telling. No doubt,many current members would see the organisation in a whole new light. At the same time,the same letter writing campaign by us mere peons who happen to cast votes could be lighting a fire under the butt of our local MPP and riding association executive,especially the ridings who are in opposition. By writing enough letters,they can't hide behind the "We didn't know" excuse. It may be a good time to create enough that it may turn into an election issue. Watch them all dive for cover.

I've sent a general e-mail to the OFAH. If I get a response,I'll post it.

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

I've sent a general e-mail to the OFAH. If I get a response,I'll post it.

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Better you than me,the last time I spoke out against them on this site I got a 30 day ban.LOL Suprised I,am still on.

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

Better you than me,the last time I spoke out against them on this site I got a 30 day ban.LOL Suprised I,am still on.

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I sure heard that. Most of the time,we can say what we want. We just have to cautious how we say it.LOL

As far as OFAH's position on the subject, NORA's Simon Guillet asked OFAH several times before he finally got this reply where they admitted supporting public access restrictions…quote, " Therefore, in order to represent both groups, OFAH fights against excess MNR/NOTO road closures and too many MNR/NOTO access restrictions, but agrees that some road closures and access restrictions are necessary to allow remote tourism members to run more profitable enterprises by offering a "remote" experience to their guests [

Thought I shoud repost this quote, seems we have problems seeing their position.

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Originally Posted by woody1948

As far as OFAH's position on the subject, NORA's Simon Guillet asked OFAH several times before he finally got this reply where they admitted supporting public access restrictions…quote, " Therefore, in order to represent both groups, OFAH fights against excess MNR/NOTO road closures and too many MNR/NOTO access restrictions, but agrees that some road closures and access restrictions are necessary to allow remote tourism members to run more profitable enterprises by offering a "remote" experience to their guests [

Thought I shoud repost this quote, seems we have problems seeing their position.

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What a crock. It's like saying we're only getting a little bit screwed. Do you have an idea as to how old their comments are? Maybe,they've had time to re-evaluate. At any rate,I intend to find out,one way or the other. My information is these closures have encompassed some very vast areas taking in great fishing lakes and hunting areas for their own financial gain at the disadvantage to everyone else. I don't have a problem with folks making a living,of course,but,this is just plain wrong.

We should be in a pretty good position here to get a reply on where they stand.

I've sent a carefully worded,very respectful e-mail to the OFAH executive leaving ZERO wiggle room for an ambiguous response. When/if there's a reply,I'll post it. I also intend to contact our MP and MPP (they're PC and Conservative,father and son,so,this should be interesting.)

Sometimes,it pays to shake the bushes,politically,now and then,if for no other reason to show them all that we're still watching.

Hey if the outfitters want to keep these areas remote, I've got an idea.....tell the logging companies to stop building roads in the bush to allow access to these lakes. Wait a second, are the forests that are logged belonging to us, or are they leased by other countries? Hmmm seems more fishy everywhere you look.

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

What a crock. It's like saying we're only getting a little bit screwed. Do you have an idea as to how old their comments are? Maybe,they've had time to re-evaluate. At any rate,I intend to find out,one way or the other. My information is these closures have encompassed some very vast areas taking in great fishing lakes and hunting areas for their own financial gain at the disadvantage to everyone else. I don't have a problem with folks making a living,of course,but,this is just plain wrong.

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I agree with you that "this is plain wrong" because it creates two classes of hunters/fishers in Ontario, those with money to spend on
the outfitters and those who do not.The worse part is that the excluded group are Canadian taxpayers and the visiting groups to the lodges are very often from out of the country.How can this be fair.

The outfitters are already getting a pretty good deal in relation to property they bought and the vast area that they hunt.Maybe they should be allowed to pony up money for the thousands of acres they are using as a private resort and they can block of their
own properties.If you open up a road through Crown land in southern Ontario to a lake you have to allow people to use it even if it starts on your private land.But it seems if you open up a road in Northern Ontario the opposite applies?

This is an issue for me. Crown land is for everyone's use.


OOD/OFAH - my membership will not be renewed if this nonsense position is maintained. I urge the rest of you to take this stance. I have supported OFAH for many years but not for this weak lack of backbone stance. Most of the outdoors folks I know are members, I will be bringing this to light if they don`t already know.

I will PM Caltek to see who to contact in my area.

This thread should be reposted in both Hunting and fishing sections.

Not an issue that affects me either way, but it's seems to be a black and white decision that has went the wrong way. The crown land should be accessible to everyone. Seems these closures are reverting to something like QC in the pre-ZEC days when clubs (outfitters in Ontario's case) are being granted exclusive access to some areas. It would be wrong even if they were paying for exclusive access, but that they are getting exclusive access for free is doubly wrong.

I've refused to be an OFAH member for a while because I've seen a few recommendations like this. It used to drive me nuts when they market themselves as "the voice of anglers and hunters". They do some very very good work, but their policy and political decisions aren't always consistent with mine - and I hate them claiming to be my voice.

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Originally Posted by duckduckgoose

I've refused to be an OFAH member for a while because I've seen a few recommendations like this. It used to drive me nuts when they market themselves as "the voice of anglers and hunters". They do some very very good work, but their policy and political decisions aren't always consistent with mine - and I hate them claiming to be my voice.

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I've been a member for almost 25 years, but I'm finding myself in the same boat too.

There is no stopping you from accessing these areas and that is their snare . You can access but you can't use a motorized vehicle too . The outfitters can though by plane . This has been going on for years and will continue too . As far as OFAH . I was a longtime standing member till the backroom deal with the spring bear hunt and also their lack of support with duck hunting on Lake of Bays . Heah wait a minute . They supported the idea of banning Lake of Bays duck hunting via Jack Newton if I'm not mistaken . I'm not sure if it empcompasses the entire lake though . Was years ago that battle was on . OFAH has never been a great friend to the North . Like a religion to some though who will never see them as flawed and the money grubbers they are .


TD

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Originally Posted by Big Jack

This is an issue for me. Crown land is for everyone's use.


OOD/OFAH - my membership will not be renewed if this nonsense position is maintained. I urge the rest of you to take this stance. I have supported OFAH for many years but not for this weak lack of backbone stance. Most of the outdoors folks I know are members, I will be bringing this to light if they don`t already know.

I will PM Caltek to see who to contact in my area.

This thread should be reposted in both Hunting and fishing sections.

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i most certainly agree!!!!

I nominate that this thread should be relocated to either the Hunting 101 or Fishing 101forum. Many forum members do not see or look in the Off Topic forum. This thread has interest to both Anglers and Hunters.

Caltek please move this thread where the larger membership can see it

TIA,

Fishy Wishy.

2 Nd that.... If we can have this moved to where It should be.... In front of the people that need to know !!!.

Is this to much to ask....

I think the paid workers at head office are not listening to the board of directors and the membership .. the tail is waging the dog and we fall for it every time . I think head office does things against the wishes of the majority of membership as they know the bussiness better than us

How would one go about starting a petition to bring attention to the situation?

go to a zone meeting and ask ... if they give you the tipical response " dont worry we have it under control " tell them you want it in the minutes of meetings and a letter of response

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Originally Posted by Birdbuff

How would one go about starting a petition to bring attention to the situation?

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By contacting your local OFAH zone director and secretary and ask for a motion to be included in the agenda for the next zone meeting.

then get as many people that you can to show up at the zone meeting and vote in favour of having this changed.

this needs to happen in the majority of the zones, and pretty much needs a zone director with the balls to push it, as they will need to contact directors from other zones to keep the pressure on Greg Farrant to change his stance on the public access issue.

Be prepared for a long drawn out process, since most zones only have 3 meetings per year, and will require a personal investment of gas and time to get to the meetings.

my personal observations have been that the OFAH head office prefers to give the zones direction and are generally not very welcoming to the concept of the zones giving head office it's direction.

Be prepared to find out that while there may seem to be a lot of people not happy with the OFAH stance on this policy, it will be one hell of a struggle to get people to commit to going to the meetings and supporting the change. It's far too easy to just complain on forums and hope for change, and unfortunately that's what will happen.

I have had dealings with the OFAH in the past, It has left a bitter taste in my mouth, this seems to be no different.

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Originally Posted by Blackwolf

I have had dealings with the OFAH in the past, It has left a bitter taste in my mouth, this seems to be no different.

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We hear you Blackwolf. Would you care to elaborate?

Wonder if a petition at your local outdoor store would help .... Squeaky wheel gets greased kinda thing....

Hey I just noticed this WAS moved over to the Hunting Forum. Thanks Caltek. Appreciated.
Now let's see if anybody adds some new insight, has new questions or new suggestions to get some action to open these lands for everybody's use with equal opportunity.

I am not incredibly well versed in this whole issue, but it is clearly wrong that outfitters have exclusive rights to land which they have not payed for. I will be sending some letters to MPs and OFAH over this. I suggest everyone do the same.
I (like many here)am from southern ontario. Even though this may not effect me as much as those residing in northern Ontario, we need to show a united front as sportsmen of ontario if we ever want to be taken seriously.

Back to the top of the posts.

Fellow hunters get involved please!

Caltek gave me this info;

Can email OFAH directly - [email protected] and your email will be directed to the appropriate staff member(s).

Let these guys know how you feel about this topic!

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Originally Posted by Big Jack

Back to the top of the posts.

Fellow hunters get involved please!

Caltek gave me this info;

Can email OFAH directly - [email protected] and your email will be directed to the appropriate staff member(s).

Let these guys know how you feel about this topic!

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I sent some e-mails out when this thread started,not only to the OFAH,but also to OMNR (besides the EBR) and my local MPP. So far,I haven't heard back from any of them.

I've read the comments given so far - as an outsider I have a question - basically what you guys are complaining about is the fact that you can't use the roads that logging companies made into these remote areas - no one is keeping you from using crown land - just using the road to get there - if you had another way of getting into these areas you could - like an airplane - I'm assuming that the outfitters can't use the roads either but fly into their camps - am I missing something?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoePa

I've read the comments given so far - as an outsider I have a question - basically what you guys are complaining about is the fact that you can't use the roads that logging companies made into these remote areas - no one is keeping you from using crown land - just using the road to get there - if you had another way of getting into these areas you could - like an airplane - I'm assuming that the outfitters can't use the roads either but fly into their camps - am I missing something?

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Joe NO they want there to be a 2km buffer around the lakes so that if you are not registered with the hunt camp fish camp you can not use area . even if you walk in .. no one is allowed to hunt land other than the outfitters costumers

Yes this is what you're missing.
These roads were subsidized by taxpayers and as such we should be able to use them.
Most of these roads were constructed years ago before all this started. If you had been used to driving into a specific lake to fish and you now had to drag your cartopper boat, your 9.9, your gas, your fishing gear and whatever else distances of at least 1/2 mile through the bush at your age...well that realistically makes that lake now unavailable.
But the real kicker is this: lodges, many owned by American citizens who cater almost exclusively to Americans can now fish our lakes but we can't.
We're not talking a few lakes here and there. We're talking about hundreds of prime fishing lakes.

So why doesn't someone thumb their nose at this law, get charged, and then launch a legal challenge to it? Granted it would take deep pockets, but surely there is a Northern Ontarian with a good legal budget and the nose for a fight?

I'll go.. Whose paying my legal fees? Want it in writing before hand.

The majority of these lakes in some areas were STOCKED with tax payer money to do what ???? Support American tourism !

These roads are part of the deal when logging companies are given wood rights. originally meant for OUR use! Fishy deals seem to be going on cutting what the OFAH is supposed to represent. Members V.S. ADVERTIZING $$$$
Glad I stopped giving money.

Boy - I can see why you guys are ticked off - you need to get a lawyer and fight this land grab - get it into court - set up a fund and get enough money to hire a lawyer to start legal proceedings - you gotta make noise and follow through with your elected officials - you don't need someone to get charged - file a law sue against a camp and get the ball rolling - get the press involved too - good luck

A decent lawyer (one has already been retained by Ontora) will cost about $100,000 for the first round alone .
Like anything when it actually comes to digging into your own pockets most find they've suddenly got a hole in the bottom and there's only a few coins found.

It appears to me - I could be wrong - but somehow your elected officials don't react to your complaints - down here if something like that would happen - outdoor people would let politicans know that they will be thrown out of office if they don't do something about this - this is precisely why most politicans won't touch the gun issue down here - they know that people would throw them out - another question - what authority does the MNR have to set up this land grab without your elected officials approving it - or did they -

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoePa

It appears to me - I could be wrong - but somehow your elected officials don't react to your complaints - down here if something like that would happen - outdoor people would let politicans know that they will be thrown out of office if they don't do something about this - this is precisely why most politicans won't touch the gun issue down here - they know that people would throw them out - another question - what authority does the MNR have to set up this land grab without your elected officials approving it - or did they -

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The fact that you have President Obama disproves this theory.But thats OK I love him.LOL.

The MNR are an arm of the elected officials and they have to follow orders just like the Marines.

Well - it seems the thing to do is get after the politicans to do something - and if any one of them doesn't do everything possible to fix this land grab - throw them out of office when the next election comes around - and then make sure the new guy will do something about it - Obama got elected because most of the people wanted him at the time - we are stuck with him for 4 years when he is elected - our representatives are elected every 2 years - if they don't satify the voters - out they go - and they know it - that's why they are always trying to get imput from you - senators are elected every 4 years -

Well Joe,

Its kinda like this, you decide to go on a hunting trip on Public Land in the U.S.A. You take a trip to scout the place out in the summer and see signs of Elk,Deer, whatever.You go back in the fall and find a sign over the road going into the public land which states the road is closed for the first two weeks of the gun season to the American Public.Then you find out that Canadian hunters
who are willing to pay a fee to have exclusive hunting rights for the first two weeks are in there hunting and your locked out.

Some would say this is just old fashioned capitalism.We dont expect to much of our politicians because they constantly disappoint.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoePa

Well - it seems the thing to do is get after the politicans to do something - and if any one of them doesn't do everything possible to fix this land grab - throw them out of office when the next election comes around - and then make sure the new guy will do something about it - Obama got elected because most of the people wanted him at the time - we are stuck with him for 4 years when he is elected - our representatives are elected every 2 years - if they don't satify the voters - out they go - and they know it - that's why they are always trying to get imput from you - senators are elected every 4 years -

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In Ontario the electoral districts are based on population density. If you are more dense (and you have to be to want to live in Toronto), you get more members of parliament. So the more heavily populated areas like Southern Ontario / GTA can easily control what happens in Ontario. You simply can't find members of parliament in Greater Toronto Area that give a crap about what is happening in the North half of the province. There are only 8 members of provincial parliament in Northern Ontario, and an additional 5 members to the south east representing area's that contain significant amounts of crown land. So, in a nutshell you have at best 13 members representing over 50 % of the land mass, while there are 94 members representing the south. Northern Ontario just gets told how things are going to be.

That is why a lot of us feel greatly let down that the OFAH has chosen to not stand up for us on this issue, they are supposed to be our voice with a direct link to communicating with our government.

Has anyone who has contacted the OFAH on this topic received a response yet?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bhanley

Has anyone who has contacted the OFAH on this topic received a response yet?

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Nope! Not yet from anyone. I'll re-send them. If I still don't hear back,we'll have our answers.

I think too if enough of us send email to talk show hosts in Toronto.. Maybe someone will pick it up.. They brought in the cottage thing.. With tank testing..

Call them and ask to speak to.........
Leave a message for them to call you back.

That's what I did and I received a call back from an executive at the OFAH on the bear issue about 7 years ago. When I was told from them that the spring bear hunt was now a dead issue. Just saying you might get an answer you might not like.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bigr

Call them and ask to speak to.........
Leave a message for them to call you back.

That's what I did and I received a call back from an executive at the OFAH on the bear issue about 7 years ago. When I was told from them that the spring bear hunt was now a dead issue. Just saying you might get an answer you might not like.

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It's the answers we want. Whether or not we like it doesn't matter. It's what we do, after, that matters.

Here is a part of a letter i found..

We agree that OFAH has said much about the need for better public access on your website, and lately also in your OOD magazine. Our question was simply, how can you postulate increased public access as a “core priority for OFAH” when your recommendations to the MNR support 1 Km buffer zones around “remote tourist” lakes which effectively denies access to ordinary citizens, (the overlapping of these buffer zones also denies access to other lakes not reserved for remote tourism), support decommissioning of forestry roads and the removal of culverts and bridges, and by extension, the continued monopoly of the remote tourism industry of our natural heritage. The MNR is now also prohibiting use of trappers’ and portage trails that have been in existence since the earlier days of the fur trade.
Apart from a few tweaks and a couple of exceptions, OFAH supports most of the MNR’s and NOTO’s status quo on banning access to the general public, in effect, the privatization of over 2,000 lakes for one user group. If your policies on access are as “clear and transparent” as you claim in your reply, then why is it members such as this writer and hundreds of OntORA members who are or were long-time OFAH members, have never been clearly informed of your strong support for the MNR and NOTO’s positions on public access? It comes as a shock to countless OFAH members.
We cannot reply to such arcane innuendos such as your unexplained accusation that OntORA “has repeatedly made inaccurate and misleading public comments about the OFAH and (its) position on access.” The only comments we have made about OFAH and its access policies are the same as those contained in this letter and previous letters to you.

http://www.ofah.org/ofahcomments

scroll down toLand Use/Access Past Postings

then scroll down to
Crown Land Use Harmonization Project (CLUAH)

then read the ofah response sept 1 2011 its a pdf file

Quote:

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Originally Posted by B Wilson

There is one group that nobody has mentioned yet that you should contact. That is your local OFAH Zone Chair and it's directors, send an email or call and ask for this topic to be discussed at the next zone meeting as well as being documented in the minutes which are then sent onto head office. If all zones support addressing this, then the paid staff (Greg Farrant) at the OFAH will have to change their approach to this subject.

i have been to several zone E meetings in which there are less than 20 people show up other than the annual election meeting.

If we don't give the OFAH head office staff a list of things to work on, they will just do what ever they think they should do.

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That's exactly right. As a former member of the OFAH, I know that OFAH policy is set by the Board of Directors, which is made up of executives from ofah zones across the province. Without input from the grassroots level, the Zone executive is left to determine their position on their own. This position gets put forth at the Board level where it gets supported because there weren't any OFAH members that stood up against it. Seen it happen on a couple issues.

As far as OFAH position on crown land access, I think their position is starting to change somewhat. I know for a fact, from speaking with head office staff, that ofah was more worried about the militant attitudes that OntOra has than about OntOra's position on access. I was told that sometimes ofah needs to take a "more moderate stance" on certain issues simply to remain at the table when those issues are discussed. They took a militant stance on the Lake Nipissing walleye issue and as a result were completely cut out of the committee that discussed the problem and management actions.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by B Wilson

By contacting your local OFAH zone director and secretary and ask for a motion to be included in the agenda for the next zone meeting.

then get as many people that you can to show up at the zone meeting and vote in favour of having this changed.

this needs to happen in the majority of the zones, and pretty much needs a zone director with the balls to push it, as they will need to contact directors from other zones to keep the pressure on Greg Farrant to change his stance on the public access issue.

Be prepared for a long drawn out process, since most zones only have 3 meetings per year, and will require a personal investment of gas and time to get to the meetings.

my personal observations have been that the OFAH head office prefers to give the zones direction and are generally not very welcoming to the concept of the zones giving head office it's direction.

Be prepared to find out that while there may seem to be a lot of people not happy with the OFAH stance on this policy, it will be one hell of a struggle to get people to commit to going to the meetings and supporting the change. It's far too easy to just complain on forums and hope for change, and unfortunately that's what will happen.

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I used to be active in my local ofah zone, and B Wilson has it exactly rigth. complaining on forums doesn't do anything. Membership in the ofah gives us a more powerful voice at the zone level, which helps direct policy from the board of directors.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

Nope! Not yet from anyone. I'll re-send them. If I still don't hear back,we'll have our answers.

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Just for the record,nobody from OFAH has ever responded to my e-mails on this subject.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dude Bro

That's exactly right. As a former member of the OFAH, I know that OFAH policy is set by the Board of Directors, which is made up of executives from ofah zones across the province. Without input from the grassroots level, the Zone executive is left to determine their position on their own. This position gets put forth at the Board level where it gets supported because there weren't any OFAH members that stood up against it. Seen it happen on a couple issues.

As far as OFAH position on crown land access, I think their position is starting to change somewhat. I know for a fact, from speaking with head office staff, that ofah was more worried about the militant attitudes that OntOra has than about OntOra's position on access. I was told that sometimes ofah needs to take a "more moderate stance" on certain issues simply to remain at the table when those issues are discussed. They took a militant stance on the Lake Nipissing walleye issue and as a result were completely cut out of the committee that discussed the problem and management actions.

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This "more moderate stance" seems to be OFAH policy. I'm not convinced it's good as a "blanket" policy,but,while it's very true that "we can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar" sometimes,a little bit of a "raised voice" is needed. WE,also,need to remember that the OFAH is merely a lobby group,not a labor union with a paid membership that demands solid results or they're going on strike. Lobby groups can be booted at the whim of any government ministry. Granted,if enough stick together and yell out loud and clear,politicians see votes flying out the window,BUT,if the alternative is worse,we've accomplished nothing except cutting off our noses to spite our faces.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mark270wsm

http://www.ofah.org/ofahcomments

scroll down toLand Use/Access Past Postings


then scroll down to
Crown Land Use Harmonization Project (CLUAH)

then read the ofah response sept 1 2011 its a pdf file

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Thanks for posting that mark270wsm. I just read it, and it seems like ofah is against almost all access restrictions. Am i reading that right? Seems to me that ofah and ontora agree, at least in principle.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dude Bro

Thanks for posting that mark270wsm. I just read it, and it seems like ofah is against almost all access restrictions. Am i reading that right? Seems to me that ofah and ontora agree, at least in principle.

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The key word,though,is "principle." It should be noted that northern Ontario outfitters have considerable support from the OFAH,also. For the OFAH to "take a side" and promote one over the other would be next to impossible and ultimately,self-defeating.

By definition "Crown land is an area belonging to the monarch ("the Crown"), the equivalent of an entailedestate that passed with the monarchy and could not be alienated from it. Today, in countries where the British monarchy is the head of state, the term is used to refer to public land." Key word here is public land, I don't believe anyone is interested in denying outfitters the right to run a business on land they have purchased with access to "public" land they may be adjacent to, however, this does not provide the right to deny the rest of us access to "our"public land. OFAH should take up the cause here on our behalf, run a campaign to collect funds to pay for legal opposition and put an end to this practise. I would be happy to throw in $50.00, if we all put in what we were able I'm sure our pure numbers would win this fight. How can a group of individual small outfitting business's deny an entire population access to the land that is rightfully theirs? Does an OFAH representative monitor these posts and conversations? What comment does the OFAH have regarding this and their promise to uphold our rights?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

Might be a good idea to get charged,that way a court challenge can be started and outdoors people could throw in a fee bucks and see if the road closures hold water under the legislation they are using.

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Get them in court and don't settle for dropped charges:Make them go to trial. That way they have to stop the practice all together. Far too often bad policy or laws (of which there are many) are money makers that won't hold up in court so they'll drop the charges so they can still use the scam on the next sucker. Hope you got the time off work if you go for it though, you might need it. ;)

Don't complain on forums, take a more moderate stance, and remember the 'voice of fishermen and hunters is working for you. What a crock, all the while the closures are escalating and the OFAH won't answer an email. Do the sheeple still believe this stance is not driven by the advertising dollar? No wonder the province is in the state it is in.

they have enough money in there war chest and reserves to more than pay for the court fees .. the last time they ofah asked for money for a land purchase it turned into a nightmare. I think that is where the ofah "officially jumped the shark"

Where are your great canadian hunting and fishing shows on this issue ? Do they use their paid advertising to help secure and maintain public access to water and land they get to use for free so they can film infomercial hunting and fishing shows at these
tourist operators free of charge as their trips are donated so they can tell someone to pay to get to said lake.

the basis of these shows and turning hunting and fishing into a business is exactly what is leading to the problem some are pouting about.

enjoy your Saturday morning hunting and fishing shows promoting the tourist operator whom is pushing government to block your access to crown lands and waters unless you pay him to be there. !!!

This is an old thread. Which makes my point more relevant.
If you are waiting for the OFAH to make a wave,or even a ripple don't hold your breath.
They have a track record of doing nothing when it really counts. They are a disappointing let down. As a lobby group they lack drive,heart, and soul. The executives managed to create cushy jobs for themselves THATS IT.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Couliewalker

This is an old thread. Which makes my point more relevant.
If you are waiting for the OFAH to make a wave,or even a ripple don't hold your breath.
They have a track record of doing nothing when it really counts. They are a disappointing let down. As a lobby group they lack drive,heart, and soul. The executives managed to create cushy jobs for themselves THATS IT.

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This is the second necro thread you've posted a rant about the OFAH. So,what's this about,then,really?

I have belonged to Anglers and Hunters since it started but they do not the work for us.What really pissed me off is stocking the no spawning atlantic salmon what a bloody waste of our donations,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

This is the second necro thread you've posted a rant about the OFAH. So,what's this about,then,really?

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Probably wasn't hired

I'm an avid hunter, trapper, fisherman, and I'm personally happy that MNR is closing/gating resource extraction roads and restricting vehicle access. I personally think there needs to be more of it. I'm in my mid fifties now, and I've always ranked remoteness and /or an "untouched" or damaged landscape as a very high criteria factor for my enjoyment of the outdoors. It almost doesn't exist anymore in this province, and the scary thing is that it has happened so fast. Less than 50 years ago the average person didn't own and run an ATV, UTV, Argo, or snowmobile. There were large tracts of "quality" pristine bush that was available for use, as long as you were willing to get off your lazy arse and use your arms and legs to visit it. I consider myself very fortunate to have spent 40+ years in a canoe covering pretty much all of the province, often several 150-350km+ trips per year and I'm so very happy that I got to see what I did before it was destroyed by overuse due to easy access. Less than 25 years ago, you could pull the latest edition NTS or OBM map for a remote area of crown land, and plan a trip that would allow you to avoid people, garbage, noise, resource rape, and be able to get some form of solitude. It's next to impossible now to have this experience. What you get now is the proverbial spider network of ATV trails (that show on no map) criss-crossing every piece of land, using the closest resource extraction road as the trunk line. If someone can get an atv and a trailer in, then the place is destroyed. The result is exactly the same everywhere I go now - bloody garbage everywhere, abandoned moose camp garbage, boat caches, tore-up landscape from off road vehicles, over-used campsites covered in human excrement, garbage, and stripped to bare rock. The lake has long ago been raped of all the fish. Sadly, it's no better in the areas that were set aside for preservation (provincial and federal parks). Go visit places like Quetico, Woodland Caribou, Wabakimi, Kopka River, etc., etc and they're all the same - totally crowded, people everywhere, garbage, damaged resources, etc. I'm getting too old to carry a heavy canoe now so I guess I don't have to worry about it anymore. It still think it sure would have been nice to know that something remotely resembling what I saw and experienced was left for the next generation to see. Maybe there's too many rats in the shoebox now. Should have been born 20 years earlier.

Very interesting view point and comment which many will agree with, myself included.
At 76 years of age, hunted a lot of northern Ontario for moose, and fished many northern lakes, I have seen the country destroyed in many places where years ago it was pristine due to the inability by most to access these areas.
Now as you say with all the atv's and such, people are able to access areas and once they are there , most of these areas are turned into garbage dumps as they will not clean up after being there .
What to do ?? that is a big question, as by closing off many access roads, people are still able to get around them with their atv's and carry on as they have been with no forthought of "leave nothing but your tracks. "

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jaycee

Very interesting view point and comment which many will agree with, myself included.
At 76 years of age, hunted a lot of northern Ontario for moose, and fished many northern lakes, I have seen the country destroyed in many places where years ago it was pristine due to the inability by most to access these areas.
Now as you say with all the atv's and such, people are able to access areas and once they are there , most of these areas are turned into garbage dumps as they will not clean up after being there .
What to do ?? that is a big question, as by closing off many access roads, people are still able to get around them with their atv's and carry on as they have been with no forthought of "leave nothing but your tracks. "

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More and more,the western provinces have designated vast areas where off-road vehicles are prohibited (much to the chagrin of hunters and anglers everywhere) to halt wide spread ecological destruction. I wouldn't rule out the same thing happening in Ontario,either,sooner rather than later.

Somewhere in my office I have a mouse-eared yellow copy of an old Lands and Forests abstract from 1967-1968. The topic is the observed hunter success rate for moose due to the advent and use of "the power toboggan" (the snow mobile). This would have essentially been the first off road motorized vehicle that extended hunter access to what was once pristine untouched crown land. The results were dramatic, even for the few NW Ontario MU's that data existed for. Hunter success and overall tag fill rate went through the roof. That was 50+ years ago, before ATVs, UTVs, argos, etc. It should not come as any surprise that we have no moose left in the province.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fenelon

Somewhere in my office I have a mouse-eared yellow copy of an old Lands and Forests abstract from 1967-1968. The topic is the observed hunter success rate for moose due to the advent and use of "the power toboggan" (the snow mobile). This would have essentially been the first off road motorized vehicle that extended hunter access to what was once pristine untouched crown land. The results were dramatic, even for the few NW Ontario MU's that data existed for. Hunter success and overall tag fill rate went through the roof. That was 50+ years ago, before ATVs, UTVs, argos, etc. It should not come as any surprise that we have no moose left in the province.

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Being an avid hunter and ATV enthusiast and getting a tad long in the tooth for back pack Moose hunting,I'd sure hate to see ATV use for hunting prohibited,but,there's no disputing the possibility that Moose population drops may be directly attributable to increased access of sectors of Ontario which weren't traditionally hunted in the past. I'm surprised OMNRF hasn't done a study to determine the effect increased access has had on big game populations.

It's important to acknowledge and not to hijack the origin of this thread about Ontora's efforts to prevent large Crown Land tracts of this province from being allocated as the sole domain of outfitters businesses at the exclusion of all other users and OFAH's alleged failure to acknowledge and support those efforts.

Should we ban accurate firearms with quality optics? They are a big advantage over open sights? You don’t manage a resource by controlling access or the method of transport. You manage a resource by controlling the number of animals that can be harvested. Oh I almost forgot, we only manage license hunters which are now a very small percentage of the harvest. The unlicensed, unregulated hunters are not managed and harvest an unknown number from the population. How can this work out for the wildlife population. Who will put a stop to it before it’s too late? IMO

What the province needs to do is to restrict access to new resource access roads to only vehicles used for that purpose and to remove the access to those roads when extraction operations are complete. That way, if the public never had access to those roads in the first place then nothing is being taken away from them …..in my opinion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

Should we ban accurate firearms with quality optics? They are a big advantage over open sights? You don’t manage a resource by controlling access or the method of transport. You manage a resource by controlling the number of animals that can be harvested. Oh I almost forgot, we only manage license hunters which are now a very small percentage of the harvest. The unlicensed, unregulated hunters are not managed and harvest an unknown number from the population. How can this work out for the wildlife population. Who will put a stop to it before it’s too late? IMO

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That is a good point. Add the nonsense of uncontrolled wolf and bear populations and moose and deer have little chance.

My issue with closing roads and limiting use is a pretty simple one. Giving one group of people favour over another group is simply wrong.

Public land is public land. Restrictions should be very few and far between. No outfitter should be able to pay a fee to have full and only access to crown land. It’s not right.

Furthermore Ontario is missing a huge opportunity from a growing Ontario perspective. Atv and all rec vehicles for that matter should be welcomed and that industry built up. Everybody wins. People would come from far and wide to play and pay.

Everybody should pay to use the resource. Simple resident and non resident fee structure where all the money goes to enforcement would work just fine. Give the officers teeth by allowing the ability to seize vehicles/rec vehicles/Goods until fines are paid.

MNRF should do that right now for all FWCA infractions.

That would stop a lot of nonsense right there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Big Jack

That is a good point. Add the nonsense of uncontrolled wolf and bear populations and moose and deer have little chance.

My issue with closing roads and limiting use is a pretty simple one. Giving one group of people favour over another group is simply wrong.

Public land is public land. Restrictions should be very few and far between. No outfitter should be able to pay a fee to have full and only access to crown land. It’s not right.

Furthermore Ontario is missing a huge opportunity from a growing Ontario perspective. Atv and all rec vehicles for that matter should be welcomed and that industry built up. Everybody wins. People would come from far and wide to play and pay.

Everybody should pay to use the resource. Simple resident and non resident fee structure where all the money goes to enforcement would work just fine. Give the officers teeth by allowing the ability to seize vehicles/rec vehicles/Goods until fines are paid.

MNRF should do that right now for all FWCA infractions.

That would stop a lot of nonsense right there.

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Please correct me if I'm wrong here, but I don't think the outfitter has full and only access to the lakes, and as it sits now they do not have exclusive rights to the use of these designated lakes. Water access is wide open for anyone to use. I've been on close to 100 canoe trips over the years that crossed chains of lakes with outfitter fish camps on them. Sadly, the ones with the outfitter camps on them usually have poorer fisheries on them. In many areas of northern and NW Ontario, you are literally sickened by the disrespectful use of the land wherever roads allow people to bring in their campers, trucks, and off-road vehicles. Within a few years that initial access area has been degraded and abused, and the effected area has expanded tenfold by use of the ATV. The next chain of lakes that ATVs can reach are toast within a few more years. The only "quality" part of your canoe trip is when you enter and cross these protected zones that do not allow vehicle access. The average person isn't willing to paddle a canoe or run a little canoe kicker, and carry the gear. The problem is that as soon as you involve a motorized vehicle (car and or ATV) then the place gets destroyed, abused, and raped of its resources. I don't see any lost opportunities in local economies by restricting ATV/rec vehicles. The collateral damage to the environment is not worth the extra business at the local gas station, Timmy's or hotel IMO.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fenelon

Please correct me if I'm wrong here, but I don't think the outfitter has full and only access to the lakes, and as it sits now they do not have exclusive rights to the use of these designated lakes. Water access is wide open for anyone to use. I've been on close to 100 canoe trips over the years that crossed chains of lakes with outfitter fish camps on them. Sadly, the ones with the outfitter camps on them usually have poorer fisheries on them. In many areas of northern and NW Ontario, you are literally sickened by the disrespectful use of the land wherever roads allow people to bring in their campers, trucks, and off-road vehicles. Within a few years that initial access area has been degraded and abused, and the effected area has expanded tenfold by use of the ATV. The next chain of lakes that ATVs can reach are toast within a few more years. The only "quality" part of your canoe trip is when you enter and cross these protected zones that do not allow vehicle access. The average person isn't willing to paddle a canoe or run a little canoe kicker, and carry the gear. The problem is that as soon as you involve a motorized vehicle (car and or ATV) then the place gets destroyed, abused, and raped of its resources. I don't see any lost opportunities in local economies by restricting ATV/rec vehicles. The collateral damage to the environment is not worth the extra business at the local gas station, Timmy's or hotel IMO.

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Totally agree!:goodstuff: although , others will not see it this way.

If they're the dedicated hunters/anglers and conservationists that they profess to be,they will. Ask anyone north of The French,though,and they'll tell you the same thing. It's the "weekend crew" that are causing all the damage because they simply go home and forget about it. You just gotta know that they'll be the first bunch b***** in' when unlimited motorized access gets canned. AFAIC,the sooner the better. let them stick to designated,regulated trails in the south.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

If they're the dedicated hunters/anglers and conservationists that they profess to be,they will. Ask anyone north of The French,though,and they'll tell you the same thing. It's the "weekend crew" that are causing all the damage because they simply go home and forget about it. You just gotta know that they'll be the first bunch b***** in' when unlimited motorized access gets canned. AFAIC,the sooner the better. let them stick to designated,regulated trails in the south.

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Lots of family north of the French that will tell you that the locals poach and wreck the land as much or more than those visiting.

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Originally Posted by Fenelon

Please correct me if I'm wrong here, but I don't think the outfitter has full and only access to the lakes, and as it sits now they do not have exclusive rights to the use of these designated lakes. Water access is wide open for anyone to use. I've been on close to 100 canoe trips over the years that crossed chains of lakes with outfitter fish camps on them. Sadly, the ones with the outfitter camps on them usually have poorer fisheries on them. In many areas of northern and NW Ontario, you are literally sickened by the disrespectful use of the land wherever roads allow people to bring in their campers, trucks, and off-road vehicles. Within a few years that initial access area has been degraded and abused, and the effected area has expanded tenfold by use of the ATV. The next chain of lakes that ATVs can reach are toast within a few more years. The only "quality" part of your canoe trip is when you enter and cross these protected zones that do not allow vehicle access. The average person isn't willing to paddle a canoe or run a little canoe kicker, and carry the gear. The problem is that as soon as you involve a motorized vehicle (car and or ATV) then the place gets destroyed, abused, and raped of its resources. I don't see any lost opportunities in local economies by restricting ATV/rec vehicles. The collateral damage to the environment is not worth the extra business at the local gas station, Timmy's or hotel IMO.

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Well articulated but let me say you seem to think it should only be available to what you think is reasonable use.

The weekend guys aren’t totally to blame. The locals do most of the damage....

And yes I believe if the lake is land locked the outfitter controls access.
Not a big deal if a navigable stream exists but I doubt that’s always the case.

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Originally Posted by Fox

Lots of family north of the French that will tell you that the locals poach and wreck the land as much or more than those visiting.

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Yup and it’s easy to blame guys coming up but I’ve seen it myself where I grew up. Locals destroyed trout streams and such cause they felt “they” owned it.

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Originally Posted by Big Jack

Well articulated but let me say you seem to think it should only be available to what you think is reasonable use.

The weekend guys aren’t totally to blame. The locals do most of the damage....

And yes I believe if the lake is land locked the outfitter controls access.
Not a big deal if a navigable stream exists but I doubt that’s always the case.

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I think it's pretty reasonable to only ask that people using the land respect it, and practise the 'no trace" policy, rather than destroy the very thing we all love. I have no faith in this ever happening. I don't think it's too hard to see that a lot of what we're now doing when we use the accessible portion of crown land is nothing short of disgusting. We need to ask ourselves if we want to see the small remaining portion to end up the same way. It will all be gone in 25 years at the rate we're going if we keep going like we're doing now with access. In only 30 years I've seen many of the areas I used to like to go to almost completely destroyed - some local places like Nogies Creek/Bass Lake, Frost Center near Dorset, all of Temagami, the entire Shining Tree area, Gowganda/Montreal river area, Smoothwater area, Bark lake area, Sultan road area from The Watershed all the way to Chapleau, Graham region, Elliot Lake area, Goulais river area, etc., etc., etc. I don't know how you're going to get the ever-expanding number of users to look after and conserve what we have left. Call it a cop-out on my part, but I'm happy I wont be around in 35-40 years to see what's left.
On another note re: people leaving garbage and trashing the resource - I have friends who are/were CO's over all of Ontario. If you look at 35 years of past tickets, sadly it's about 70-80% local people that are destroying their own backyards.

Again well articulated but what is the answer?

Massive Crown preserves where no motor is permitted along side large tracts of use as you wish lands?

There has to be a way of doing it.

There has to be some plan that meets the mark.

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Originally Posted by Big Jack

Again well articulated but what is the answer?

Massive Crown preserves where no motor is permitted along side large tracts of use as you wish lands?

There has to be a way of doing it.

There has to be some plan that meets the mark.

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Consultation with the prairie provinces would be a good start. Some have use policies from "game retrieval only" to flat-out prohibition. There should be a happy medium,but,it will be emotionally charged. It will not be easy without government being arbitrary.