Ontora neglected by the OFAH

[redd foxx]

What the province needs to do is to restrict access to new resource access roads to only vehicles used for that purpose and to remove the access to those roads when extraction operations are complete. That way, if the public never had access to those roads in the first place then nothing is being taken away from them …..in my opinion.

[Big Jack]

Should we ban accurate firearms with quality optics? They are a big advantage over open sights? You don’t manage a resource by controlling access or the method of transport. You manage a resource by controlling the number of animals that can be harvested. Oh I almost forgot, we only manage license hunters which are now a very small percentage of the harvest. The unlicensed, unregulated hunters are not managed and harvest an unknown number from the population. How can this work out for the wildlife population. Who will put a stop to it before it’s too late? IMO

That is a good point. Add the nonsense of uncontrolled wolf and bear populations and moose and deer have little chance.

My issue with closing roads and limiting use is a pretty simple one. Giving one group of people favour over another group is simply wrong.

Public land is public land. Restrictions should be very few and far between. No outfitter should be able to pay a fee to have full and only access to crown land. It’s not right.

Furthermore Ontario is missing a huge opportunity from a growing Ontario perspective. Atv and all rec vehicles for that matter should be welcomed and that industry built up. Everybody wins. People would come from far and wide to play and pay.

Everybody should pay to use the resource. Simple resident and non resident fee structure where all the money goes to enforcement would work just fine. Give the officers teeth by allowing the ability to seize vehicles/rec vehicles/Goods until fines are paid.

MNRF should do that right now for all FWCA infractions.

That would stop a lot of nonsense right there.

[Fenelon]

That is a good point. Add the nonsense of uncontrolled wolf and bear populations and moose and deer have little chance.

My issue with closing roads and limiting use is a pretty simple one. Giving one group of people favour over another group is simply wrong.

Public land is public land. Restrictions should be very few and far between. No outfitter should be able to pay a fee to have full and only access to crown land. It’s not right.

Furthermore Ontario is missing a huge opportunity from a growing Ontario perspective. Atv and all rec vehicles for that matter should be welcomed and that industry built up. Everybody wins. People would come from far and wide to play and pay.

Everybody should pay to use the resource. Simple resident and non resident fee structure where all the money goes to enforcement would work just fine. Give the officers teeth by allowing the ability to seize vehicles/rec vehicles/Goods until fines are paid.

MNRF should do that right now for all FWCA infractions.

That would stop a lot of nonsense right there.

Please correct me if I'm wrong here, but I don't think the outfitter has full and only access to the lakes, and as it sits now they do not have exclusive rights to the use of these designated lakes. Water access is wide open for anyone to use. I've been on close to 100 canoe trips over the years that crossed chains of lakes with outfitter fish camps on them. Sadly, the ones with the outfitter camps on them usually have poorer fisheries on them. In many areas of northern and NW Ontario, you are literally sickened by the disrespectful use of the land wherever roads allow people to bring in their campers, trucks, and off-road vehicles. Within a few years that initial access area has been degraded and abused, and the effected area has expanded tenfold by use of the ATV. The next chain of lakes that ATVs can reach are toast within a few more years. The only "quality" part of your canoe trip is when you enter and cross these protected zones that do not allow vehicle access. The average person isn't willing to paddle a canoe or run a little canoe kicker, and carry the gear. The problem is that as soon as you involve a motorized vehicle (car and or ATV) then the place gets destroyed, abused, and raped of its resources. I don't see any lost opportunities in local economies by restricting ATV/rec vehicles. The collateral damage to the environment is not worth the extra business at the local gas station, Timmy's or hotel IMO.

[jaycee]

Please correct me if I'm wrong here, but I don't think the outfitter has full and only access to the lakes, and as it sits now they do not have exclusive rights to the use of these designated lakes. Water access is wide open for anyone to use. I've been on close to 100 canoe trips over the years that crossed chains of lakes with outfitter fish camps on them. Sadly, the ones with the outfitter camps on them usually have poorer fisheries on them. In many areas of northern and NW Ontario, you are literally sickened by the disrespectful use of the land wherever roads allow people to bring in their campers, trucks, and off-road vehicles. Within a few years that initial access area has been degraded and abused, and the effected area has expanded tenfold by use of the ATV. The next chain of lakes that ATVs can reach are toast within a few more years. The only "quality" part of your canoe trip is when you enter and cross these protected zones that do not allow vehicle access. The average person isn't willing to paddle a canoe or run a little canoe kicker, and carry the gear. The problem is that as soon as you involve a motorized vehicle (car and or ATV) then the place gets destroyed, abused, and raped of its resources. I don't see any lost opportunities in local economies by restricting ATV/rec vehicles. The collateral damage to the environment is not worth the extra business at the local gas station, Timmy's or hotel IMO.

Totally agree! although , others will not see it this way.

[trimmer21]

If they're the dedicated hunters/anglers and conservationists that they profess to be,they will. Ask anyone north of The French,though,and they'll tell you the same thing. It's the "weekend crew" that are causing all the damage because they simply go home and forget about it. You just gotta know that they'll be the first bunch b***** in' when unlimited motorized access gets canned. AFAIC,the sooner the better. let them stick to designated,regulated trails in the south.

[Fox]

If they're the dedicated hunters/anglers and conservationists that they profess to be,they will. Ask anyone north of The French,though,and they'll tell you the same thing. It's the "weekend crew" that are causing all the damage because they simply go home and forget about it. You just gotta know that they'll be the first bunch b***** in' when unlimited motorized access gets canned. AFAIC,the sooner the better. let them stick to designated,regulated trails in the south.

Lots of family north of the French that will tell you that the locals poach and wreck the land as much or more than those visiting.

[Big Jack]

Please correct me if I'm wrong here, but I don't think the outfitter has full and only access to the lakes, and as it sits now they do not have exclusive rights to the use of these designated lakes. Water access is wide open for anyone to use. I've been on close to 100 canoe trips over the years that crossed chains of lakes with outfitter fish camps on them. Sadly, the ones with the outfitter camps on them usually have poorer fisheries on them. In many areas of northern and NW Ontario, you are literally sickened by the disrespectful use of the land wherever roads allow people to bring in their campers, trucks, and off-road vehicles. Within a few years that initial access area has been degraded and abused, and the effected area has expanded tenfold by use of the ATV. The next chain of lakes that ATVs can reach are toast within a few more years. The only "quality" part of your canoe trip is when you enter and cross these protected zones that do not allow vehicle access. The average person isn't willing to paddle a canoe or run a little canoe kicker, and carry the gear. The problem is that as soon as you involve a motorized vehicle (car and or ATV) then the place gets destroyed, abused, and raped of its resources. I don't see any lost opportunities in local economies by restricting ATV/rec vehicles. The collateral damage to the environment is not worth the extra business at the local gas station, Timmy's or hotel IMO.

Well articulated but let me say you seem to think it should only be available to what you think is reasonable use.

The weekend guys aren’t totally to blame. The locals do most of the damage....

And yes I believe if the lake is land locked the outfitter controls access.
Not a big deal if a navigable stream exists but I doubt that’s always the case.

[Big Jack]

Lots of family north of the French that will tell you that the locals poach and wreck the land as much or more than those visiting.

Yup and it’s easy to blame guys coming up but I’ve seen it myself where I grew up. Locals destroyed trout streams and such cause they felt “they” owned it.

[Fenelon]

Well articulated but let me say you seem to think it should only be available to what you think is reasonable use.

The weekend guys aren’t totally to blame. The locals do most of the damage....

And yes I believe if the lake is land locked the outfitter controls access.
Not a big deal if a navigable stream exists but I doubt that’s always the case.

I think it's pretty reasonable to only ask that people using the land respect it, and practise the 'no trace" policy, rather than destroy the very thing we all love. I have no faith in this ever happening. I don't think it's too hard to see that a lot of what we're now doing when we use the accessible portion of crown land is nothing short of disgusting. We need to ask ourselves if we want to see the small remaining portion to end up the same way. It will all be gone in 25 years at the rate we're going if we keep going like we're doing now with access. In only 30 years I've seen many of the areas I used to like to go to almost completely destroyed - some local places like Nogies Creek/Bass Lake, Frost Center near Dorset, all of Temagami, the entire Shining Tree area, Gowganda/Montreal river area, Smoothwater area, Bark lake area, Sultan road area from The Watershed all the way to Chapleau, Graham region, Elliot Lake area, Goulais river area, etc., etc., etc. I don't know how you're going to get the ever-expanding number of users to look after and conserve what we have left. Call it a cop-out on my part, but I'm happy I wont be around in 35-40 years to see what's left.
On another note re: people leaving garbage and trashing the resource - I have friends who are/were CO's over all of Ontario. If you look at 35 years of past tickets, sadly it's about 70-80% local people that are destroying their own backyards.

[Big Jack]

Again well articulated but what is the answer?

Massive Crown preserves where no motor is permitted along side large tracts of use as you wish lands?

There has to be a way of doing it.

There has to be some plan that meets the mark.