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A great tool to use, I would recommend using it if you have a question.
http://www.mnr.gov.on.ca/en/Business...01_130186.html
I have personally used this and I found it to be better then actually talking to a CO or the phone line. You get your response in an email.
but if everyone starting using that resource, it would cut 50% of the posts here :(
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
On the bright side it would also reduce the amount of posts that belittle others for asking questions about the regs.....
Great resource, I had posted this link back in another forum awhile ago. I used it not to long ago, took about 11 days to get a response, but they do indicate it could take up to 15 days.
The question I asked was when the debate came up regarding orange cover while hunting with 4 wheelers.
Someone stated that, while on the 4 wheeler, you are actively hunting (persuing game) therefore must either have an orange helmet, or orange cover for your helmet.
I had made the argument, it is illegal to hunt from a vehicle, so even while using a 4 wheeler to look for game, technically, you aren't hunting, once you step off the 4 wheeler to fire a shot that is when you are legally hunting and must either a) take off your non orange helmet and put an orange hat on, or, b) step off with your orange helmet and fire away.
Here was their response.
Quote:
Hello Jason,
Thank you for your enquiry.
Taking into account that you may not legally hunt from a motorized
vehicle, you would not require a hunter orange helmet while riding your
ATV during an open gun season for moose, deer or bear. However, once you
step off the ATV you would have to replace your helmet with an orange
head covering (toque or hat) as you would then be considered to be
hunting.
From a safety standpoint, an orange helmet is something you could look
into, but it's not necessary.
We hope you have found this information helpful.
Regards,
NRIC web reader - RB
************************************
Ontario Ministry of Natural Resources
Natural Resources Information Centre
300 Water Street, P.O. Box 7000
Peterborough, ON K9J 8M5
1-800-667-1940
TTY: 1-866-686-6072
Fax: 705-755-1677
[email protected]
This link should be posted as a sticky at the top of the Hunting 101 section. How do we go about flagging down a moderator to do this?
I passed along the link, along with your reccomendation ( a good one at that) to CalTek.Quote:
Originally Posted by BurlyGirl
That's neat. I'd come across the "ask a CO" page before, but since there are some questions and answers posted on the siteand they haven't been updated in a long time, I thought the feature was dormant or no one was responding. Didn't realize they're just responding by email now.
Dammit! NOW what are we going to yell at each other over all winter long?Quote:
Originally Posted by TurkeyRookie
I don't know if I can get through January without an online shouting match over whether it's legal to track a wounded deer over a property line after dark if accompanied by a Catholic priest or notary public.
LOL that's one way to look at it, or, and stay with me on this one, did we create a whole new batch of topics to yell at eachother over at, such as "WTF are you asking that for, don't you know how to read the ask a co FAQ?"Quote:
Originally Posted by welsh
:)
Given how many questions are posted on matters that are totally clear in the reg summary we all supposedly read, I'm not too worried about legal questions disappearing. They're a bit like coyotes, in that you can eliminate a few but it's gonna have zero impact on how many are left to chase around all winter.
If one doesn't cheek the regs and comes hear to ask a regulation regarding there question , what makes you think this option well be used more ? Or is the comment ''go see sticky thread above ask a co '' now going to be common pratice? I think so .
I think it be a resourceful tool for the debates that come up where the law isn't so black and white, and has some room for interperation, good link to have handy to get the facts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Young Buck
Which was why I thought it'd be a good sticky. I agree :thumbup:Quote:
Originally Posted by TurkeyRookie
I used it for a few items, one was for clarification on Coyote hunting with a rifle during an open big game season. What I learned was that in a WMU that has an open Bear season (like WMU73) you can not hunt Coyotes (actually all small game) with any rifle that has more then 400ft/lbs of energy or a shot gun loaded with any lead shot larger then #2 lead (there are more restrictions with the shot gun) during that open season unless you have a valid tag for bear (or a valid tag for the open gun season of any big game). The bear season is from Sept to End of Nov there so unless you have a bear tag basically you can't use a centre fire rifle during that open season for coyote (small game).
Turkeyrookie said -
'...so even while using a 4 wheeler to look for game, technically, you aren't hunting...' Technically, that's not true.
HUNTING:
Includes lying in wait for, searching for, being on the trail of, pursuing, chasing or shooting at wildlife, whether or not the wildlife is killed, injured, captured or harassed. You need a hunting licence to do any of these things, except where the Fish and Wildlife Conservation Act, 1997, states otherwise.
So don't ever admit that you are looking for grouse or game tracks using your ATV, as you will be considered to have been hunting from a vehicle, orange, or no orange.
Hello Jason,
Thank you for your enquiry.
Taking into account that you may not legally hunt from a motorized
vehicle, you would not require a hunter orange helmet while riding your
ATV during an open gun season for moose, deer or bear. However, once you
step off the ATV you would have to replace your helmet with an orange
head covering (toque or hat) as you would then be considered to be
hunting.
From a safety standpoint, an orange helmet is something you could look
into, but it's not necessary.
We hope you have found this information helpful.
Regards,
NRIC web reader - RB
I trust you asked that question of a CO before posting your legal opinion on this thread, right?
Hey Welsh, are you asking me?
This is a great resource. However, it will all boil down to how the CO you are dealing with, interprets the regulations. I know of a guy who was charged with no hunter orange while riding in his truck. I also know of a member of our group who was charged in a check station because he had cut, wrapped and frozen moose in a cooler...without it being labelled with contents, name etc..He had all the tags info, names of hunters, phone numbers etc. etc... To fight the ticket was not realistic due to the travel expenses etc....
Yup.Quote:
Originally Posted by zoli 16ga.
If the kids are looking for deer out the window of the minivan as it zips down 401, are they hunting from a vehicle? Are birdwatchers, looking for birds, hunting?
If I am driving to my hunting spot and see an animal by chance, and decide to stop and hunt that animal, am I considered to be pursuing the animal from the moment I apply the brakes, and therefore hunting from a vehicle?
I'd be careful about applying literal interpretations of "searching for wildlife" here. Exactly when looking for wildlife tips over into hunting is a question for "ask the CO."
Friendly conversation. Please read with a happy face, as I'm typing with one : )
If the primary intent of driving the mini van is to go from point A to B (or to your hunt camp), then deer sighting(s) would be a consequence of that trip (if I explained that right).
Not to harp on it to (too?) much, but Turkey's admitted argument was about ridding an atv looking for game, then stating he's not hunting (to paraphrase), is almost an oxymoron (maybe the wrong term). I would never admit to driving the trails, looking for grouse, or searching for moose, with a gun strapped to my back, or in a case for that matter. 'I am travelling from this area to that area sir' or on my way back to camp.
Your right, what is the ministry definition of searching?
I personally know of two hunters who were charged and avoided possible conviction (pled out to $3000 fine, and got their guns back) who were in a pickup truck searching for moose, seen a moose down a cross road, backed up, pointed the truck towards the moose, were still in the truck getting a better look, and had COs tap on their window, then take them down. The moose was a mechanical decoy.
Just say'n.
Just safer to say I'm out on a pleasure drive, rather than looking for grouse while driving my ATV, just to remove any possible doubt. Like you correctly state, you just never know which CO interpretation you may get. Of course a judge would have the last say, and interpret the intent of your actions.
Old question - My wife is walking beside me in the woods. She has no gun or hunting licence. I am hunting grouse, or moose. I have her wear orange, so some trigger happy deer hunter does not shoot her. Is she hunting?
From what I understand, a CO way up north would say no, unless he seen her point out birds for me. A CO in a simcoe county forest would ask for her paperwork.
: )
To be fair to TurkeyRookie (Hey wait that's me!)Quote:
Originally Posted by zoli 16ga.
You have no idea what exactly he, I, said, as I only posted the answer.
Here was the question,
Quote:
The question I have relates to hunter orange and ATV's.
When driving down a trail, looking for birds, you are "actively" hunting, so, is it requred that you have an orange helmet on, or
helmet with an orange cover. Or, once you spot a bird, can you get off the atv, take the helmet off, and put an orange hat on.
Obviously the ladder is more of a pain than anything and the preffered
choice would be an orange helmet, The question is, when driving down the road looking for game,
are you "actively hunting" and thus HAVE to have orange on your head at that time.
Thanks.
Name : Jason Smith
Email: Ommitted,
At no point did I "Admit" that I'm not hunting....Quote:
but Turkey's admitted argument was about ridding an atv looking for game, then stating he's not hunting
I flat out asked,The direct answer was.Quote:
The question is, when driving down the road looking for game,
are you "actively hunting" and thus HAVE to have orange on your head at that time.
No where did this CO indicate that I would not be legally allowed to shoot that animal I spotted from the ATV because I spotted it while looking for it on a vehicle, he simply stated that because you cannot hunt from an ATV you do not have to have orange on your head while on it. Once you step off, you are now hunting and thus must have orange on.Quote:
Taking into account that you may not legally hunt from a motorized
vehicle, you would not require a hunter orange helmet while riding your
ATV during an open gun season for moose, deer or bear. However, once you
step off the ATV you would have to replace your helmet with an orange
head covering (toque or hat) as you would then be considered to be
hunting.
I will agree it could get a bit muddy if the parties involved wanted to really scrutinize every aspect, to this I say, (Like I do everytime this conversation comes up) common sense will prevail, taking all other aspects into consideration, are you following every other law/rule, are you being pleasant, etc, then you probably aren't going to get much hassle.
Especially when the CO's also, ride their ATV's in search of. :) They must have the same interperation as most of us do.
Fair enough, but there's a gap between "I would never admit to" and "It is illegal to," and that gap is my point here.Quote:
Originally Posted by zoli 16ga.
We have these continual discussions here concerning such matters as how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, whether they must wear blaze orange during a gun season for cherubim, and who is allowed to cross a property line while counting them. (I, personally, think they should wear blaze orange as it makes them easier to count.)
These kinds of questions would be better cleared up by using "ask a CO," because one can argue the point either way.
For a "real world example" that I forgot to mention (and posted about earlier this fall). I was stopped by a CO Checkpoint West bound on highway 11 a month or so ago, I was on my way to a customers site and was driving roads inbetween for birds.
I had shot 2 or 3 by that time.
With one CO at each window the conversation went like this.
"Where are you headin today"
-To see a customer in such and such a city, a bit of bird hunting inbetween
"Ah okay, just driving a few roads lookin for them?"
-Yes a few on the way there, and a few on the way back
"Okay any lucky"
-Yes their in the back.
And they went and checked, and proceeded to check paperwork and gun etc. No issue, and he flat out asked if i was driving, looking for them, which I flat out said yes.
I find it kind of odd that someone would compare S. Ont and N. Ont CO's, a CO is a CO, will one set encounter a different scenario countlessly over another, absolutely, S ON will see alot more deer turkey, etc hunteres, vs the N Ont grouse, moose, etc hunters.
But I don't think that's to say that one set would have "less common sense" or "smarts" to figure out what's going on, and I highly doubt your wife would be asked for any paperwork after you explained shes along for the walk and you don't want her to get shot.
I may be wrong, my status only states "has all the answers" not all the right ones! :)
I was stopped by my first S. Ont CO this year while hunting with Rustic, and I was actually in the wrong on one part of the hunt (I didn't have a required piece of paperwork on my person) I had it, in the truck, I was ignorant to the fact that I needed to have it on me, everything else checked out, and I explained what had happened. I'm sure he could of wrote me up for something, or at the very least made me leave the hunt and walk back out to the truck and prove I had it, and keep it on me,
But no, I explained I had never hunted the area before, or the specy and didnt relize I had to keep that certain portion on me, he understood, left it at that, and let us continue on.
Again, I think common sense, smarts, and judgement, dont care which side of orillia you work on.
I really think we should organize a pheasant hunt with Rustic and his mutt, so we can further discuss this issue.
In the meantime, I'll ask the CO a question then - When actively, and purposely, searching for game while on my ATV (or othe motorized vehicle), am I in any violation of the law, as it pertains to the Ministry's definition of hunting, particularily the 'searching' term used in the definition? More precisely - can one acively, and purposely, 'search' for game from a motorized vehicle, including an ATV?
HUNTING:
Includes lying in wait for, searching for, being on the trail of, pursuing, chasing or shooting at wildlife, whether or not the wildlife is killed, injured, captured or harassed. You need a hunting licence to do any of these things, except where the Fish and Wildlife Conservation Act, 1997, states otherwise.
Objection! Leading the witness!!
(Phew! Thank goodness for all those wasted hours watching "Matlock.")
You could equally ask, "if I am driving from point A to point B, and keeping an eye out for game, am I considered to be hunting" and get the opposite answer.
A better question might be, "Many hunters look for game while driving from point A to point B. Given that the definition of hunting includes 'searching' for game, under what circumstances might a CO consider that hunter to be 'hunting' rather than simply driving from A to B?"
Bingo,Quote:
Originally Posted by zoli 16ga.
Let us know what they say.
The question is not leading at all. It's quite specific, I think. If I get charged with hunting grouse from a vehicle, while on my way back to camp, I'd like to know if I have any chance of beating the charge. It will also depend on whether I tell the truth or not. Meaning, I tell him I'm on a dinner run for grouse, or, 'happen' to have seen one, got off my atv, put my orange on (if applicable), then shot my bird.
I will ask them both questions nonetheless.
I use this technique when questioning the wife all the time! Works for me!!
Who is Mattlock? Is he related to Perry Mason??
: )
Matlock was the Perry Mason of the 80s (I think).....
I just wanna point one thing out: I think the definition of hunting is one spot where the hunting regs summary -- which is just that, a summary -- does a weak job of capturing the actual law. The full FWCA definition of hunting is:Quote:
Originally Posted by zoli 16ga.
“hunting” includes,
(a) lying in wait for, searching for, being on the trail of, pursuing, chasing or shooting at wildlife, whether or not the wildlife is killed, injured, captured or harassed, or
(b) capturing or harassing wildlife,
except that “hunting” does not include,
(c) trapping, or
(d) lying in wait for, searching for, being on the trail of or pursuing wildlife for a purpose other than attempting to kill, injure, capture or harass it, unless the wildlife is killed, injured, captured or harassed as a result,
and “hunt” and “hunter” have corresponding meanings; (“chasse”, “chasser”, “chasseur”)
So that answers the earlier question: bird watchers, wildlife photographers, etc are not hunting, because they are "searching for . . . wildlife for a purpose other than attempting to kill" etc. Now it still doesn't completely resolve the current debate about looking for game while on an ATV, as opposed to just using the ATV to get to your stand. I guess you could argue that you were just scouting on the ATV, and when you saw a grouse or whatever scamper off into the bush, you stopped the ATV and began your hunt. I guess it is a grey area and the fact that some COs have been lenient about it doesn't mean the law is lenient, officers of all stripes cut people slack sometimes. What would be better than a CO's opinion is if there have been any court cases that have dealt with this issue.
WAIT YOU GUYS I JUST FIGURED IT OUT. Reading the FCWA more carefully, it never actually says that you can't "hunt" from a vehicle. What it does say is,
24. (1) A person shall not use a vehicle for the purpose of killing, injuring, capturing, harassing, pursuing or chasing wildlife.
So "lying in wait for, searching for, and being on the trail of" wildlife for purposes of killing it, although part of the definition of hunting, is not actually prohibited on a vehicle. As long as you're not actually chasing the critter on your ATV or trying to run it over. A separate section, 17, prohibits having a loaded firearm on or shooting from a vehicle.
Hmmmmm...
Don't overthink this guys....you'll hurt yourselves....
no kidding....:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Moosehead
Here's a good one to debate.
At what point in time can you take the plug out of your shotgun?
The charecteristics that makeup a shutgun over a rifle are
1) Smooth bore, not rifled
2) Point, not aimed
3) Multi Projectile Vs Single
So, if one were to put a rifled slug barrell on, with a scope, and shoot slugs, is it now for all intents and pourposes a rifle? And can the plug be removed?
Look forward to the responses.
your still using shells...you'd have to rewrite all the regs, a bureaucratic nightmare :)
Yeah I'm pretty sure the legal difference between a shotgun and a rifle is the ammo it's chambered for. You can buy a bolt action "slug gun" with a rifled barrel and scope mounts (see http://www.outdoorlife.com/photos/ga...s-deer-hunting ), but since it takes 12 ga shells instead of rifle cartridges, it's good to go in a shotgun-only unit and it needs to be plugged. And of course more advanced slug loads are being developed all the time, dimming out the difference on the ammo side as well.
This kind of makes me wonder about the point of regulations that differentiate between shotguns and rifles, particularly in the case of shotgun-only deer seasons. What's the point in restricting an area to shotguns if they can be exactly like rifles, except that the cases they take are cylindrical and plastic instead of tapered and brass?
I agree. Never heard of a 12 gauge rifle before.
I believe the regs address the issue by saying a shotgun loaded with ball which is the old term for a slug.
Tried to get on the MNR website, but its now not working.. Maybe because I'm using an iPad?
Looks like they are having website issues, none of the mnr pages are loading, including the main.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iconix
http://www.mnr.gov.on.ca/en/
And at what point does a vehicle become legal to shoot from? If the motor or wheels have been removed is it still a vehicle, or just a metal game blind?
What about a vehicle with no key in the ignition?
Can I stick a lawn chair in the back of a dump truck and wait for a deer to run by? What about just sitting on the tailgate of the truck?
The regs are obviously to stop you from driving up to the game and shooting from the vehicle, right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
hahaha
I have used this resource several times. It has verified some of the "rules" that I have heard from other hunters and refuted others. Also has been useful to clarify the difficult legal jargon in some of the written laws.
I've seen this site about 2 months ago, but actually went to use it tonight. The MNR now has a new format for their web site.....it sucks!