Clarification on the Regulations - Ask a CO

[TurkeyRookie]

Not to harp on it to (too?) much, but Turkey's admitted argument was about ridding an atv looking for game, then stating he's not hunting (to paraphrase), is almost an oxymoron (maybe the wrong term). I would never admit to driving the trails, looking for grouse, or searching for moose, with a gun strapped to my back, or in a case for that matter. 'I am travelling from this area to that area sir' or on my way back to camp.

To be fair to TurkeyRookie (Hey wait that's me!)

You have no idea what exactly he, I, said, as I only posted the answer.

Here was the question,

The question I have relates to hunter orange and ATV's.
When driving down a trail, looking for birds, you are "actively" hunting, so, is it requred that you have an orange helmet on, or
helmet with an orange cover. Or, once you spot a bird, can you get off the atv, take the helmet off, and put an orange hat on.

Obviously the ladder is more of a pain than anything and the preffered
choice would be an orange helmet, The question is, when driving down the road looking for game,
are you "actively hunting" and thus HAVE to have orange on your head at that time.

Thanks.
Name : Jason Smith
Email: Ommitted,

but Turkey's admitted argument was about ridding an atv looking for game, then stating he's not hunting

At no point did I "Admit" that I'm not hunting....

I flat out asked,

The question is, when driving down the road looking for game,
are you "actively hunting" and thus HAVE to have orange on your head at that time.

The direct answer was.

Taking into account that you may not legally hunt from a motorized
vehicle, you would not require a hunter orange helmet while riding your
ATV during an open gun season for moose, deer or bear. However, once you
step off the ATV you would have to replace your helmet with an orange
head covering (toque or hat) as you would then be considered to be
hunting.

No where did this CO indicate that I would not be legally allowed to shoot that animal I spotted from the ATV because I spotted it while looking for it on a vehicle, he simply stated that because you cannot hunt from an ATV you do not have to have orange on your head while on it. Once you step off, you are now hunting and thus must have orange on.


I will agree it could get a bit muddy if the parties involved wanted to really scrutinize every aspect, to this I say, (Like I do everytime this conversation comes up) common sense will prevail, taking all other aspects into consideration, are you following every other law/rule, are you being pleasant, etc, then you probably aren't going to get much hassle.

Especially when the CO's also, ride their ATV's in search of. They must have the same interperation as most of us do.

[welsh]

I would never admit to driving the trails, looking for grouse, or searching for moose, with a gun strapped to my back, or in a case for that matter.

Fair enough, but there's a gap between "I would never admit to" and "It is illegal to," and that gap is my point here.

We have these continual discussions here concerning such matters as how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, whether they must wear blaze orange during a gun season for cherubim, and who is allowed to cross a property line while counting them. (I, personally, think they should wear blaze orange as it makes them easier to count.)

These kinds of questions would be better cleared up by using "ask a CO," because one can argue the point either way.

[TurkeyRookie]

For a "real world example" that I forgot to mention (and posted about earlier this fall). I was stopped by a CO Checkpoint West bound on highway 11 a month or so ago, I was on my way to a customers site and was driving roads inbetween for birds.

I had shot 2 or 3 by that time.

With one CO at each window the conversation went like this.

"Where are you headin today"
-To see a customer in such and such a city, a bit of bird hunting inbetween

"Ah okay, just driving a few roads lookin for them?"
-Yes a few on the way there, and a few on the way back

"Okay any lucky"
-Yes their in the back.

And they went and checked, and proceeded to check paperwork and gun etc. No issue, and he flat out asked if i was driving, looking for them, which I flat out said yes.

I find it kind of odd that someone would compare S. Ont and N. Ont CO's, a CO is a CO, will one set encounter a different scenario countlessly over another, absolutely, S ON will see alot more deer turkey, etc hunteres, vs the N Ont grouse, moose, etc hunters.

But I don't think that's to say that one set would have "less common sense" or "smarts" to figure out what's going on, and I highly doubt your wife would be asked for any paperwork after you explained shes along for the walk and you don't want her to get shot.

I may be wrong, my status only states "has all the answers" not all the right ones!

I was stopped by my first S. Ont CO this year while hunting with Rustic, and I was actually in the wrong on one part of the hunt (I didn't have a required piece of paperwork on my person) I had it, in the truck, I was ignorant to the fact that I needed to have it on me, everything else checked out, and I explained what had happened. I'm sure he could of wrote me up for something, or at the very least made me leave the hunt and walk back out to the truck and prove I had it, and keep it on me,

But no, I explained I had never hunted the area before, or the specy and didnt relize I had to keep that certain portion on me, he understood, left it at that, and let us continue on.

Again, I think common sense, smarts, and judgement, dont care which side of orillia you work on.

[zoli 16ga.]

I really think we should organize a pheasant hunt with Rustic and his mutt, so we can further discuss this issue.

In the meantime, I'll ask the CO a question then - When actively, and purposely, searching for game while on my ATV (or othe motorized vehicle), am I in any violation of the law, as it pertains to the Ministry's definition of hunting, particularily the 'searching' term used in the definition? More precisely - can one acively, and purposely, 'search' for game from a motorized vehicle, including an ATV?

HUNTING:
Includes lying in wait for, searching for, being on the trail of, pursuing, chasing or shooting at wildlife, whether or not the wildlife is killed, injured, captured or harassed. You need a hunting licence to do any of these things, except where the Fish and Wildlife Conservation Act, 1997, states otherwise.

[welsh]

Objection! Leading the witness!!

(Phew! Thank goodness for all those wasted hours watching "Matlock.")

You could equally ask, "if I am driving from point A to point B, and keeping an eye out for game, am I considered to be hunting" and get the opposite answer.

A better question might be, "Many hunters look for game while driving from point A to point B. Given that the definition of hunting includes 'searching' for game, under what circumstances might a CO consider that hunter to be 'hunting' rather than simply driving from A to B?"

[TurkeyRookie]

I really think we should organize a pheasant hunt with Rustic and his mutt, so we can further discuss this issue.

In the meantime, I'll ask the CO a question then - When actively, and purposely, searching for game while on my ATV (or othe motorized vehicle), am I in any violation of the law, as it pertains to the Ministry's definition of hunting, particularily the 'searching' term used in the definition? More precisely - can one acively, and purposely, 'search' for game from a motorized vehicle, including an ATV?

HUNTING:
Includes lying in wait for, searching for, being on the trail of, pursuing, chasing or shooting at wildlife, whether or not the wildlife is killed, injured, captured or harassed. You need a hunting licence to do any of these things, except where the Fish and Wildlife Conservation Act, 1997, states otherwise.

Bingo,

Let us know what they say.

[zoli 16ga.]

The question is not leading at all. It's quite specific, I think. If I get charged with hunting grouse from a vehicle, while on my way back to camp, I'd like to know if I have any chance of beating the charge. It will also depend on whether I tell the truth or not. Meaning, I tell him I'm on a dinner run for grouse, or, 'happen' to have seen one, got off my atv, put my orange on (if applicable), then shot my bird.

I will ask them both questions nonetheless.

I use this technique when questioning the wife all the time! Works for me!!

Who is Mattlock? Is he related to Perry Mason??

: )

[welsh]

Matlock was the Perry Mason of the 80s (I think).....

[tweedwolfscream]

I really think we should organize a pheasant hunt with Rustic and his mutt, so we can further discuss this issue.

In the meantime, I'll ask the CO a question then - When actively, and purposely, searching for game while on my ATV (or othe motorized vehicle), am I in any violation of the law, as it pertains to the Ministry's definition of hunting, particularily the 'searching' term used in the definition? More precisely - can one acively, and purposely, 'search' for game from a motorized vehicle, including an ATV?

HUNTING:
Includes lying in wait for, searching for, being on the trail of, pursuing, chasing or shooting at wildlife, whether or not the wildlife is killed, injured, captured or harassed. You need a hunting licence to do any of these things, except where the Fish and Wildlife Conservation Act, 1997, states otherwise.

I just wanna point one thing out: I think the definition of hunting is one spot where the hunting regs summary -- which is just that, a summary -- does a weak job of capturing the actual law. The full FWCA definition of hunting is:

“hunting” includes,
(a) lying in wait for, searching for, being on the trail of, pursuing, chasing or shooting at wildlife, whether or not the wildlife is killed, injured, captured or harassed, or
(b) capturing or harassing wildlife,
except that “hunting” does not include,
(c) trapping, or
(d) lying in wait for, searching for, being on the trail of or pursuing wildlife for a purpose other than attempting to kill, injure, capture or harass it, unless the wildlife is killed, injured, captured or harassed as a result,
and “hunt” and “hunter” have corresponding meanings; (“chasse”, “chasser”, “chasseur”)

So that answers the earlier question: bird watchers, wildlife photographers, etc are not hunting, because they are "searching for . . . wildlife for a purpose other than attempting to kill" etc. Now it still doesn't completely resolve the current debate about looking for game while on an ATV, as opposed to just using the ATV to get to your stand. I guess you could argue that you were just scouting on the ATV, and when you saw a grouse or whatever scamper off into the bush, you stopped the ATV and began your hunt. I guess it is a grey area and the fact that some COs have been lenient about it doesn't mean the law is lenient, officers of all stripes cut people slack sometimes. What would be better than a CO's opinion is if there have been any court cases that have dealt with this issue.

[tweedwolfscream]

WAIT YOU GUYS I JUST FIGURED IT OUT. Reading the FCWA more carefully, it never actually says that you can't "hunt" from a vehicle. What it does say is,

24. (1) A person shall not use a vehicle for the purpose of killing, injuring, capturing, harassing, pursuing or chasing wildlife.

So "lying in wait for, searching for, and being on the trail of" wildlife for purposes of killing it, although part of the definition of hunting, is not actually prohibited on a vehicle. As long as you're not actually chasing the critter on your ATV or trying to run it over. A separate section, 17, prohibits having a loaded firearm on or shooting from a vehicle.