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Just curious what everyone's thoughts on ATV clubs are...
Personally I have no need or desire to be a member of an ATV club.
For the most part they just hi jack snowmobile trails in the snowmobile's off season.
I don't need a club to try and take my money so that I can drive my licensed and insured atv on crown land.
Your thoughts?
I would tend to agree with you but my guess is many Southern riders spend alot Of time on private property? I suppose if they can help out those riders it could have some value. I personally have no need at all for a club, I ride crown land exclusively.
I think for the most part it is for people with similar interests to get together and share experiences, associate and have fun. Like hunting camps, Fish and game clubs, etc.
I think clubs do more than take your money. They often maintain their own trails, sometimes they co-maintain with snowmobile clubs if the same trails are being used. They also promote the sport and encourage responsible use of the machines. There is also the social aspect that many enjoy - many clubs have rides scheduled through out the year that all can enjoy. As well, they usually promote local businesses for meals and accommodations. As a solo rider operating locally on crown land, you may not see the benefits of some of this.
Legally,in southern Ontario,there's precious little land to ride on. Most townships and Counties ban them from roads,outright. Farmers are loathe to allow them on their properties during the growing season for obvious reasons. That pretty well negates any use for an ATV "club" that governs a sport like the OFSC. ATV trails don't need to be "groomed",either,so,that would preclude any use for trail "fees" or quasi-judicial NGO's to collect them. Personally,I'd like to see all trail user fees banned. It should have never been allowed,in the first place.
The club in Haliburton works very hard. They have had local laws changed, like being able to ride the rail trail from Haliburton to Fenlon Falls. They maintain bridges, clear trails, maintain signs, publish trail maps, organize beginer clinics, and promote the club and the trails. For the recreational rider they are great asset.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frogger
No doubt,as long as they don't restrict non-club members from using public trails. If people want to join and be members of the "club",pay membership fees for whatever reason,go nuts. Just don't force it on others that choose not to do so.
That's where the OFSC jumps off the tracks. There are far too many trail Wardens who feel empowered to act like police. A couple of winters ago my buddy was trapping on land he owns and allows an OFSC trail on. A warden came along and gave him sheet and told him to get off the trail for not having a trail pass. Tried to scare him off with trespass laws and didn't believe he was the landowner. The irony is my buddy is an OPP officer and knows the laws far better than this wannabe. In the end he got tired of the guy and told him to get off his property or he would fire up his chainsaw and start dropping trees on the trail. Let's just say the local club apologized profusely but the only reason he didn't kick them all out is because his neighbor has a general store on the trail and benefits greatly from snowmobile traffic.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
"ATV trails don't need to be groomed". Clean up fallen trees, signage, pick up of garbage left behind by others, keeping riders on trails and off adjoining private properties. I guess this gets done by itself! Or does everyone carry out these duties when they "tread lightly" through the bush? This is where user fees apply with the help of club members and volunteers. Not everyone goes out with there ATV mudd bogging and thrashing up the land. So as to banning these fees and no need for groomed trails, your comment doesn't make sense!Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
Can you elaborate on the bridge maintenance that is done. Did the ATV club build the bridge?Quote:
Originally Posted by Frogger
Clear the trails... so do I when I come across a tree that fell across the trail. Should I be sending a invoice somewhere?
Clean up fallen trees? Yup, I do it, that is why there is a Stihl MS 250 on my bike all the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by robster
Pick up garbage? Yes and empty beer cans and bottles.
Signage? don't need it. I can clearly see where hundreds of atv's have been before.
If they are volunteers why does the clubs need so much money? Most are charging over $100 per machine per year.
Unlike the roads and highways, the trails are tended by volunteers and club members. They are not full time maintenance workers and don't get paid for there work. By the sounds of all against fees there really isn't many members in the clubs. Not compared to the snowmobile clubs. So if you clean up the trail I thank you B Wilson. I do my part as well but most ride and drive by without a blink. As for signage it helps in emergencies as well. Not everyone is trail savy, have a gps or can tell someone where there are. As far as the wardens like so much of society, the gift of social communication (talking to one another)has been lost by many, not every warden is out to get you. So it may not suite you but for others trying to get into the sport or meeting others likewise clubs do have there merits.Quote:
Originally Posted by B Wilson
I have no problem with snowmobile or ATV clubs per se, I think they have benefits to their members. I find the OFSC permit fees to be outrageous for the amount of time you can get on the trails in a season, however, I do not own a snowmobile, so it doesn't affect me.
The real problem I have with organized trails, especially in my area is that many of these trails cross Crown Land and the trails themselves were cut many years before the OFSC existed. Now, the people that used these trails for decades are now banned from them. There are certain exceptions for anglers, trappers and hunters, but many of them simply enjoyed riding those trail for the ride. Now they are banned unless they pay several hundred dollars for as little as five weeks of riding. We had one season several years ago that was officially five weeks because of a late fall and mild weather well into January. It was five weeks between the time they opened the trails and the early spring weather melted the snow and closed the trails in March.
I don't believe that just anyone should have access to trails that were set up under the OFSC banner on private property. THe OFSC did the work to gain access and create the trail, they have a right to charge for use. The ones that existed before OFSC on Crown land should be open access to anyone.
Another issue I have is that they permit the machine, not the operator. If my machine breaks down and I borrow one for a ride, my permission to ride the trail is with the broken machine. If they gave a card saying that the operator was permitted with another machine if they got stopped, that would make more sense.
I understand that Quebec issues license stickers every year for snowmobiles and ATVs similar to the ones we put on our vehicles in Ontario. This also serves as a trail permit, allowing you to access any trail in the province. I think a similar system could be adopted in Ontario, with trail maintenance and enforcement under a single "club", paid for with revenue from the yearly stickers.
My two cents...
The newly formed Lake of Bays ATV club successfully gained a 2 year trial period to allow atv travel on most of the roads, allowing access to the many trails in the area. This was no small accomplishment with 100's of hours in involved in presentations, meetings etc all by volunteers. The answer to your question is a resounding YES....
There's an active ATV club in the Sudbury area. They lobbied for, and unbelievably got permission to drive on certain highways and roadways in the Region of Subury. Now, you have to expect these characters driving up and down residential streets at all hours, down the center of paved roads, and when they do pull over and ride the shoulders they've got them so warn down the pavement is actually breaking away. Now, guess who pays to have these shoulders repaired.
Yesterday I actually watched a guy on an ATV with a snowplow drive along the center median of a 4 lane highway...no helmet.
I have a question. In North Algona/Wiberforce Township of Renfrew County just east of Deacon (off Highway 60) there is some County Forest/Crown Land that has the Pakotina Trail running through it. Last time I was hiking in there I found "no trespassing" signs put up by an ATV club.
Is this aimed at vehicles only? Can hikers still use the trail?
There's a similar issue with "no trespassing" signs on the snowmobile trail that runs through Killaloe. Can pedestrians use these trails in the off season?
If the ATV club put them up they shouldn't have. The only person that can legally post land as "no trespassing" is the legal land owner.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenLakePete
Unless the snowmobile clubs and atv clubs own the land the signs mean nothing.
Thanks for the support frogger.I am on the executive of the Haliburton ATV CLUB and over $50,00 was spent on trail maintenance last year, the main costs being the South Lake trail from Minden out to the rail trail. These costs as well as bridge replacement, such as the new one west of Pine Springs north of Carnarvon are all possible because of membership fees.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frogger
A snowmobile club can post No Trespassing signs with the authority of the landowner. They'd be acting as his agent.Quote:
Originally Posted by B Wilson
Snowmobile trails on crown land exist under the authority of a Land Use Permit and in many cases can post no access or no trespassing. There are some exceptions however for anglers, hunters, trappers etc.
I'm another one who started using many of those trails about 42 years ago, repaired them enough to get my 4x4 thru and now finds that various clubs have signed agreements with railbed, hydro line owners etc to keep me off of them.
Back when a person could get a permit I had no problems with the OFSC but then the government got involved and now the permit is for ONE machine.
Personally if I ever a sled or quad, I will use crown and be damned if anyone will stop me. I will see them in court, crown is crown and for the good of all taxpayers and citizens. Defiantly winnable in court.
I can't imagine too many land owners exist that would let the OFSC or OFATV act as their agents.Quote:
Originally Posted by sawbill
If the situation ever happens on crown land that I am on, I will certainly challenge it.
Probably most landowners do authorize them as agents otherwise how could a club lay trespass charges on their property. Initially landowners think its a good idea to have organized clubs monitoring traffic across their land only to find out later that these organized trails attract local wingnuts who don't stay on the trails. Often permissions and access gets cancelled altogether because of excess driving across fields instead of staying on these trails.
As for crown land you'll often find trail wardens working with OPP and charges do get laid for various offences from no trail permits, no insurance, no ownership, speeding and possession of alcohol. It all depends on the wording in the LUP and most charges are upheld.
You can go fishing, hunting, trapping or use the trail system to access your camp but recreational driving w/o a permit will get you nailed.
Its the gobbling up of traditional or established trails by snowmobile clubs that has the public fed up with the group.
I went on the Stanhope FF poker run a few years back. After paying to go on the ride I was directed to a table because as a non HATVA member I had to have "special insurance" in addition to my current policy. I had no choice but to have more money sucked out of my wallet for no determinable reason. It was the very last you will get from me. Permits and politics suck the fun out of everything. The bridges that you put in are for the benefit of the sleds and get smashed by the idiots with the rock crawlers (5 points). ALL TERRAIN VEHICLE, we don't need groomed trails and I certainly wont buy a permit to ride on Crown land trails I do my due dillegence. I have picked up everything from bottles and cans to a car battery without having to pay a club to do it for me. Being governed by the ever increasing scope of an ATV club is not desireable, at least by me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxx
P.S. I know I'm going to catch hell from you guys but don't we all just want to ride WITHOUT being babysat ??
thanks for info SawbillQuote:
Originally Posted by sawbill
Just happens to be that skunk season is open year round and I always have my AR-7 survival rifle in the ATV, I will be legal 365 days a year on crown land.
To my fellow ATV riders who don't believe we should pay for permits on trails that already existed on crown land, I encourage you to carry and conceal a cheap rim fire gun on your machine, that is assuming you have a small game license.
Happy skunk hunting!
It makes perfect sense. Maybe,not everyone comes to go mud-boggin',but,they should expect to find it while riding,if they have any sense,at all. Otherwise,don't go.Quote:
Originally Posted by robster
Clubs are a good for new riders getting into the sport,I won't dispute that. Like I said,if you want to join a club,knock yourself out. It's simply very wrong to claim you're volunteering through some altruistic ideal of doing something good for yourself,directly,then holding your hand out through an organisation and expect others to pay exhorbitant fees for it that didn't ask you or hire you to do it in the first place. That's just bullshyte.Quote:
Originally Posted by robster
If your club membership wants to make that contribution for trail maintenance,great. You did it on your own,for your own interests. Don't expect anyone else that didn't hire you or appoint you to pay you for it through "fees". You can't say you're "volunteering" for your organisation,then expect that "volunteer" organisation to get paid back. That's not what "volunteering" is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxx
I guess there's no need for the OFAH either with there membership fees and the work they and there members (volunteers) do since it would all get done eventually by someone else. Yeah right!Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
Great post.Quote:
Originally Posted by robster
Atv-ing is fast becoming the biggest recreation sport going. It draws in tourists for the towns situated in a mass of crown land and logging roads. Atvs also come at a cost. To the guys that are out there cutting trees off the trail, that's great and thank you. Now could you kindly buy and install a culvert at every creek crossing. If you want to argue that atvs don't need culverts I will ask if you have ever seen what a hundred atvs will do to a speckle creek. What about a thousand? Give Black wolf's post a read. If we don't have clubs to keep the masses on curtain trails and allow them all to drive Willy nilly all over hells half acre the use of atvs will be stopped on crown land. Most atv clubs don't require a pass from locals. At least not the smart ones.
The big difference,here,is that OFAH membership is NOT a legal requirement to hunt or fish on lakes and forests. Members do their volunteering because they believe in what they're doing,also,but,have NEVER lobbied governments for "special status" to force others into being members or levying huge fines for using natural resources we are all entitled to use as Canadians. This is the way ALL organisations should be,if not by themselves,then by law. THAT is my point.Quote:
Originally Posted by robster
If they weren't around a lot of the activities we enjoy today would be gone!
You need a valid small game license to do so. So don't tell people it's legal 365 when it's not. That statement isn't correct. Skunk season is open all year but our license isn't valid all year for the entire province of ON. As well there are by laws regarding the discharge of firearms.Quote:
Originally Posted by B Wilson
The Atv sport has alot of work to do. Its the wild west as far as how Atvs are used. Damage to creeks, snowmobile bridges, litter, drinking and driving is rampant, excessive noise, speeding, etc. They should have banned the damn things but now big business has made them popular.
You need an association to gain some measure of credibility as a sport. Atvs are were snowmobiles were in the 1960s before OFSC educated the users.
How do u figure my small game isn't valid... All year? Its valid Jan. 1,to Dec 31 of same year.... As long as the game I am hunting is open in the wmu I am hunting in...Quote:
Originally Posted by robster
As per Regulations ; 2013 page 82, " Note that a small game licence is not valid in northern Ontario and parts of central Ontario [as shown on map, pages 8-9 ] from June 16 to August 31.Quote:
Originally Posted by topher
The same warning is also on the maps .
There is a lot of ATV riding being done in those parts, your licence may be valid for where you live , but is not valid in the north or parts of central Ontario
You should read the regulations periodically before you post inaccurate info. keeps you out of trouble.
Good point, I do read the regs and am well versed in the ones that pertain to where I live and ride. I then encourage everyone to carry a spool of fishing line and a hook as well. You are on your way perch fishing. And before the wise guys say it. You need a valid fishing license as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by jaycee
The cost of a small game and fishing license is still far less than the cost of trail permits
As far as snowmobiles go having fishing equipment does not give you the legal right to run the trails other than from the closet access point of the trail to the fishing spot. Just carrying a fishing rod and using the trails to avoid buying a trail permit won't cut it.
On most of the trails around me in Southern Ontario "I'm going fishing" won't get you anywhere as the trails cross many roads and the farm fields don't provide fishing opportunities.
He was talking about crown land.. Not southern trails.
Not everyone was talking about crown land as far as exemptions go.Quote:
Originally Posted by topher
IF you are over 65 , not required !Quote:
And before the wise guys say it. You need a valid fishing license as well.
Yeah we were talking about crown land. I completely understand that I can't drive across private property without permission from the land owner.Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodsman
But there are hundreds of slickers that come riding up our way every year who don't understand this. They think if there's a trail of any kind they're good to go. The B.S. backroad mapbooks don't make things any better as people follow them like the gospel.Quote:
Originally Posted by B Wilson
I am with B Wilson on this one. No need for an atv club what so ever. I do a fair bit of
riding in the Griffith area as that is where my camp is and also hit some of the speckle lakes
up there as well. I don't want or need some wanna be trail boss telling me where I can
or cannot ride my bike.
Laker
Just make sure your property is properly signed and gated. If you find them trespassing,have them charged.Quote:
Originally Posted by oaknut
I was a pretty avid sledder. I didn't mind one bit tossing money in to a club to use their trails. Bridges aren't cheap. Fuel in the groomers isn't cheap. Repairs for equipment isn't cheap. There are thousands of hours volunteered by a handful of guys to clear trail, set up signage and then to patrol it.
Any ATV rider who knowingly enters an OFSC trail in the winter deserves to be punished. The trails are paid for by the thousands of sledders that use them. They paid to have well kept SAFE trails. The ruts made by quads in the right type of snow condition could prove deadly if a ski drops in to one and the sled will get basically locked in. With the speeds some guys go, it's not a fun ride.
Those bridges you use to cross unpassable obstacles (or even use them just to make it easier to cross something you could cross without the help) have been paid for by people that plan on them being servicable when they need to cross it.
It's posted, very clearly what the charges are. The trails are OPP patrolled, we abide by the law, and the responsible users who don't want shut down trails stick to the trails. If we just let anyone use the trails without accountability, we would have riffraff in doing all sorts of things that would end up with the trails being shut down. The sled community is pretty good with self monitoring, and that is what the ATV group needs to do as well. Being part of a club brings responsibility and attracts those who understand that being able to ride across private and public land is something they want to keep open.
As for across crown land when the sled trail isn't in season, I see no reason why ANYONE can't go in there and use the trail. Dirt bikes, ATVs, Rock buggy's, 4x4s, hikers etc. etc. have the right to be using them. Only issue are these very expensive bridges that have been built and funded by the sledders should be off limits other than to light vehicles and foot traffic (dirt bikes, ATVs and smaller) just to reduce the wear and tear on them.
I no longer sled, cost is a big part of the reason, but I grew tired of the stress of not knowing who was coming over the next hill or the next corner on my side of the trail and out of control... I race motocross pretty seriously (you want to talk about an expensive hobby...) so I know risk and I'm not afraid to take my chances, but closing speeds of over 300km/hr with oncoming sleds in 10' wide trails is not the best idea.
Well stated WTR. In the upper Ottawa Valley were my camp is located they need to pull the RIDE programs off of the highways in the summer. Do a RIDE program on any of the heavily travelled ATV trails. The impaired drivers have found a way around the RIDE program if they're travelling locally. Witness the number of injuries each summer.
Dan O.
Maybe if the OFSC trails were not so smooth and flat the sled drivers would be forced to keep the speeds down. Could also get the OPP to take the radar guns and move around to new spots.
It seems that over 90% of the accidents are either speed or booze related. They could even recruit some ATV owners to chew up the trails a little.....
When the skidoo craze started in the sixties we made our own trails or just rode to our destinations thru the deep snow. We were under the assumption that the sleds were designed to let us get there despite the snow. Now we find that most drivers seem to want a hard packed surface so they don't get their fancy snow suits wet.....
Not sure what you mean, I have used thes for quite a while and log hundreds of miles with them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by oaknut
Absolutely! It should have left that way. Your last sentence says it all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat32rf
I don't get to spend much of the summer around the property due to work so catching them ripping up my property is out. It is posted but if they see the trail on a map they must be good to go. Why should I put myself out of time and money to gate my own personal trails? It makes no sense. Eleven navigable trails through the property equals eleven gates. Who's going to pay for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
The actual paper maps do not show the crown land / private property lines. So obviously the guy who made the maps must have rode on by all the no trespassing signs to GPS these trail as they are not visible from satellite. Private should be marked on the maps.Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwhite
I listen to the police scanner frequently, the OPP do a few trail ride programs in the summer but mostly in the fall when bird season opens.Quote:
Originally Posted by DanO
Yep,I sure hear you. It'd be a royal PITA,for sure. Membership in an ATV club wouldn't help one bit,either. It's for darn sure they won't pay for them. Your in a tight spot,without doubt.Quote:
Originally Posted by oaknut
I used to live at the end of a dead end road with a snowmobile trail running just in front of my laneway. Guys were constantly roaring in to our yard almost running over the dogs & chickens. First I just closed my gate - they just opened it and came in. Then I locked the gate and while I was out they ripped the gate off!Quote:
Originally Posted by oaknut
One time a guy in a 4x4 truck came in and did "doughnuts" all over my newly planted trees.
You can't win with idiots!
Time for the buried board full of nails trick... Just on the other side of the posting... Fyck em!
Now,THAT'S funny!! ROFLMAO!Quote:
Originally Posted by grizzlygreig
Seen that last night on "Appalachian Outlaws". Almost pissed my pants laughing when the guy flattened his own tires driving over the home made spike belt.Quote:
Originally Posted by grizzlygreig
maybe next week he will forget where he strung the fishing line and fish hooks across the trail...
Thanks for sharing.
After reading through 6 pages of posts - this sums up why someone would want to be in an ATV club.Quote:
Originally Posted by redd foxx
Like everything in life, it usually boils down to choices. If the OP or anyone else who posted on here don't like ATV clubs then don't join one. Who gives a flying frying pan if someone wants to pay money and join a club?? Seriously!!
The part that PO's people the most is when these "clubs" start to dictate rules that affect others who don't particularly give a flyin' fiddler's fryin' pan about their BS rules and fees. Private clubs shouldn't be allowed to dictate anything to anyone for any reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by toddy
Ohh you belong to an ATV club? thats cute...lol
I wonder if that could be the same club(s), that told me to shove 500 ( FREE with mounting attachments) cement railway ties up my rear, whenQuote:
Originally Posted by sawbill
I and a retired CN Employee offered them. There is a couple bridges on the TCAT that need some maintenance and a upgrade from 8.5/9 foot wooden ties to 12/14 foot cement ties would have been great.
What many here don't get is that the ATV clubs don't actually make up the rules in many cases. I'm a member of Huronshores ATV club. Most of the trail system is on land controlled by Bruce County. It is the County that makes most of the rules. Without an active club these trails wouldn't be open. Any changes we want to make has to have the County approval.
As for the cement ties Snowwalker mentioned we would also say no thanks unless we had an imediate need and the resources to use them quickly. Where would we store them or how to move them would be a issue. Would the County approve their use? Would the sub-structure support the weight? Would the structure and land allow the extra width?
For those not dirrectly involved they may not see where the club dues go. Our club is required to carry 10 million dollar insurance policy. Not cheap. Yearly thousands of dollars are spent on trail maintenance. Yes some of our trails are also used by the snowmobile clubs in the winter and they do some maintenance but we also do our share and I suspect more is done to the trails by the ATV club. The snowmobile club does grooming which is of little use to us.
Woodsman, the cement ties were offered so that a narrow ( 8 feet wide) train bridge on the TCAT could be repaired. The bridge crosses a wide river valley, and is a couple hundred feet in the air, with no side rails or barriers. The bridge is becoming damaged with many of the wooden ties missing, burned( by lightning strikes or vandalism) and in various states of decay. There is a large area beside the old CN railway bed less then a kilometer from the bridge. CN was looking at two options for the ties, destroying them, or donation. CN would have moved the ties( what ever number the club wanted) to the site, and provided the hardware, and maintenance crews to install them.
So storage, transportation and structure strength would not have been a problem.
There was even plans to add railings to the sides to improve safety.
CN was looking for only three things.
1) Tax credits for donation of the ties and hardware.
2) Tax credits of donation of the crew.
3) Not having to pay money to have the ties recycled, and maybe get some good PR out of the project.
All they needed was for one( any one) of the local clubs to say yes to recieving the ties to repair the bridge. The Federal Government had already agreed to the dollar value of the donation.
So tell me, if you and your family walked over a four foot wide wooden decked bridge a hudred feet in the air with no railings everyday, then a large company said " Hey woods old buddy, why don't you let us put an eight foot wide cement deck with rails on the bridge for free" are you going to say No? That large company is also the same one that built and donated the bridge to begin with.
Now ask me what the reason the clubs said no was... go on ask me.
Holy necro thread.
Did the club have the authority to change the structures composition? Who would have the approval for the changes? Would the changes require an engineering approval? My guess is a bridge that high would need an engineer to approve it. I don't have the answers do you? If anything went wrong where would the responsibility lay?
The club naturally, CN would say "no way jose " you built it , you are responsible as the person or persons that used it and had an accident, are never held responsible for their own actions. These days, its always someone else's fault.Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodsman
CN has the Authority. To Make changes, to issue engineering approval from CN Engineers, since they still own the bridge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodsman
They still own the whole railbed that the trail uses. The legalist hoops are beyond you and I, but a simple agreement to let CN do "Trail Maintenance " from a representative of one of the local clubs was all CN needed to fix and upgrade the bridge.
So now instead of the bridge being repaired, it will likely be removed or have the end sections removed to stop ATV, Snowmobile, hikers, hunters, or anyone from using it because of liability issue.
One bridge lost will now remove about a hundred kilometers of trail from the TCAT.
With all the angst raised by people that CN made the offer to,it wouldn't surprise me if they simply demo'd the bridge. End of problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowwalker
Damn your story changes Snowwalker.
First you claim you offered to donate the cement ties to now CN would do the engineering study, work and maintain responsibility.
If the CN controlls the bridge why do they need the clubs permission?
Why should the CN offer up their time and resources to repair one of their structures for someone else 's use? I'm assuming the bridge is no longer used by the CN but its still in their inventory and their offer is simply that of being community minded. They wouldn't need the clubs permission to upgrade the thing but at the very least the club should show their appreciation for the offer of resources.
First lets look at the bridge..Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodsman
https://youtu.be/mManSZ3grRE
No that is not me in the video.
Now some background.
Karen and I are planning a three week offroad( as much as possible), trips across northern Ontario on Trails, Logging roads, and cut lines.
During my research I came across one spot on the trail that was possibly a problem..... This bridge. If we and the other people and vehicles can't cross the bridge, it removes the North Bay to Sudbury offroad section from the trip.
Well talking about the trip with friends in our club( not an atv/snowmobile club), John told me that CN some times will donate to projects that help the community( like donating an unused railway line and it's bridges to the TCAT), but he would need to make a call or two to see if CN would be interested in helping fix the Bridge.
Now a little later I get an email from him saying since the bridge and railbed was donated by CN for the TCAT originally, they had an interest in the Safety and condition of the bridge.
Through miscommunications I ended up as the proud owner of a pile of used cement ties.......If I could get the executives from my "club" to send a written request to CN. I am not a member of an ATV/Snowmoble club in Sudbury, but I could contact them.
So I contacted people in clubs in the Sudbury area by Email. In the emails I explained that CN was willing to come out and replace all the wood ties with cement ties, and install a railing system on the bridge.
So yes I was donating the ties, because CN was offering them to me because when John had to give them contact info and a person's name....that was me.
As for needing permission. They don't need permission to do anything, including tearing the bridge down. They needed a written request, simple so they can say they got a formal request for a "Worthy" community project and write the cost/expenses of the used ties and the work off.
The written request was for tax purposes, not legal permission to do it.
I can't believe that the railroad hasn't blocked access to this bridge. Even if the ties were in good condition, without guarding or railing it seems to be unsafe for recreational use. I know of similar bridges in the Long Lac area that have had fencing and gravel piles installed at their entrances to prevent access for just this reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowwalker
Maybe a dangerous oversight when the bridge and railway bed were donated. It could explain why CN was willing to do and pay for all the materials and labour costs.Quote:
Originally Posted by delmer
To get back on track with the origin of this thread........NO........I see no reason for ATV or snow mobile clubs. Having said,that,though,if folks want to form a club and finance it themselves,knock yourselves out,but,don't expect non-members to pay fees or buy "licenses" over and above provincial licenses and insurance.Quote:
Originally Posted by B Wilson
Well who is going to pay for trail construction, expansion, maintenance, signing and insurance? The province doesn't, it's the clubs that do that on top of a lot of volunteer work, without which you may as well ride around your back yard. Then there's the club/private landowners interaction when there's no way of getting from one trail to another short of riding on roads which may or may not be allowed in certain municipalities.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
All good enough questions for southern Ontario, but why does a club get to take over a logging road on crown land that log trucks drive up and down all spring summer and fall. The logging company grades the road, and puts in bridges, but the clubs act like it's their private property.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman
Half the time clubs and their members sound like the sea gulls from "Finding Nemo"....mine ..mine ...mine.
You have a good point there, I don't know the answer for the northern logging roads and trails, although you are right about the Finding Nemo mine part.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowwalker
If clubs want all these trails,they can pay for them themselves. Private clubs that get to charge fees to access public land is BS and should never have been allowed. It needs to stop.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman
I have yet to see an ATV club construct or expand any trails. Not saying it hasn't happened, just have not seen it in Eastern Ontario. Can you provide some examples that might sway opinion on why people should pay for an ATV club membership.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman
Also curious to see what success rate ATV clubs have obtaining permissions on private property.
I agree,, nobody is forcing you. For example, why would anyone in their right mind join the OFSC in southern Ontario. The season is about 1-4 weeks in length in a good year due to the weather and you get to pay the same for your trail permit. So when the groomer never actually got out that year where did the money go. Rebates to the purchaser ?? I think not.Quote:
Originally Posted by toddy
I can't provide examples for eastern Ontario, however for the central area, there are 4 trail areas, Lawden and Brentwood, small, and then Anten Mills/Phelpston and Hendrie and Wildman which can keep you riding for a while. There have been additions made to Wildman in the past two years, some of the basic work of trail construction is paid for through a company and then the final touches are done by the club. Anten Mills has added another section of trail which allows riding from Wasaga Beach to both of those trails along sanctioned roads. Right now the club is making some pretty good leaps forward in the Oro Medonte area and further north towards the Midland area. Another hurdle at the moment is to connect those trails to the Baxter/Severn club. Then there is the trail that runs from Wasaga Beach westward towards Dufferin county and you can ride all the way towards Owen Sound and further. What the actual permissions rate is for private property is unknown to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by B Wilson
I live in whitby and join the OFSC. I also ride all over the province all winter. I am fine with paying.Quote:
Originally Posted by smokin'stoegie
As for that bridge. That video is from 2013, I promise that bridge is in WAY WORSE condition now. And for some reason I cross it at least once a year lol
I live in whitby and join the OFSC. I also ride all over the province all winter. I am fine with paying.
Still a scam.
It's not the fall the kills you,it's the sudden stop at the bottom.LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by toddy
So true...Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
Attachment 37120
Kind of what figured. I bet you are not crossing it in a 4000 Lb Vehicle towing an offroad trailer are you?Quote:
Originally Posted by toddy
What ATV weights 4,000 lbs?
What does this have to do with ATV clubs? They don't work for small vehicles. Another twist in your story.
Trimmer said the bridge is in pretty bad shape, but he crosses it at least once a year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodsman
Also what ever he crosses it on would not be an OVERLAND Vehicle.
Attachment 37121
Makes alittle difference to the pucker factor.
That was toddy's post. You're sure right on the "pucker factor". That's quite the bridge to take a chance with. Hopefully,there's an alternate route. I've never been there,so,I have no idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowwalker
Ok ok. I was posting before my coffee.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
There is two alternates.
1) Run Hwy 17 from North Bay to Sudbury, and bypass the whole trail section. Works if you have a street legal Bike or 4X4 truck, but ATVs and Snowmobiles can't do that.
2) Turn south off the trail at the maintenance siding and drive the access road( hoping it's not gated at the far end) south past the local dump into a residential area. Drive 15 to 20 Km through residential streets and on to a county road where you need to find a way across the ditch, to get back on the trail.
Again do able with street legal bikes, and 4X4's, but not so much ATV, or Snowmobiles.
It is the only bridge that has no side rails, and is being destroyed by vandalism and/or faster then natural decay.
I got into snowmobiling 3 yrs ago. Whether it is crown land for ATV or snow machine..you need to understand the law and how it applies to Hunters and Fishermen. I will clarify that statement. For the legal purpose of hunting or fishing, (ONLY), on crown land Public (municipal public lands).
I had called around to clubs when and was told I had to buy a trail pass to access trails on Crown land, or Public access lands. A few of the clubs cited https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/90m44 as the law that said you had to buy a pass. So me being me, looked up the law:
The Act covers trail passes, but within the act it provides for 14 exemptions, including legal hunting and fishing during an open season. OFHA has prepared this document http://www.ofah.org/wp-content/uploa...rs-Hunters.pdf
Since I only hunt on crown land or public access (Ottawa Area) for the legal purpose of hunting and fishing (not so much), I am not required to buy a permit. That also means I cannot use trails that are not on the crown land I hunt, I.E> I cant leave CL and go clubs private land access trails (and I do not)
S.T.O.P officer program was developed in 1983 to train special constables (SC) to act as agents of the government, many clubs sent members on the STOP program to help with enforcement (Many hrs of books and OJT training required, pass test and become as SC ). The STOP officer program was cancelled on 16 Feb 2016. A couple things I have learned about clubs that still employ STOP officers. I will premise this next statement with KNOW THE LAW, get educated.
A Stop Officer must comply with requirements of the program:
-Includes carrying government issued SC STOP ID card.
-Vest, safety gear, and all other gear required to be carried to perform legal duties of SC.
It has been my experience, that every person that has stopped me with 2016 trail pass has failed the requirements to compliant with the law of a constable. More frightening was/is the following points:
-some clubs lend/use the STOP officer vest, who are not trained constables,
-Club members have tried to stop me and told me to follow them, once stopped (I always stop, and challenge ID Requirments)
-I have been threatened by club members
-every time I have been stopped by the person with vest, they could not produce ID of the constable named on the vest
-some clubs impersonate and issue tickets illegally,
-all STOP officers (with vest), I have encounter said they were going to issue me a ticket, until I challenged authority
-I video each encounter, to protect my rights and firearms license
Know the laws, demand they show you ID, and compliance requirements, I have a STOP compliance requirements checklist, that a Constable is required to carry with them in the performance of duties.
I directly challenge them to follow me to closest road where I will have the police attend to arrest them for impersonating an officer of the courts.
All of them call me a dick, and tell I should buy a pass. I wont if there is no requirement for me to do so. I will not give up my rights, or free access to public/crown lands in which they trying to charge me to use. I will not comply with bullies, poor education, and downright criminal activities by the clubs in my areas. I have submitted several reports of my encounter to the OPP with no action or follow up from OPP.
KNOW the law, exercise your rights and video each encounter. Be compliant, be polite, but be firm.
Mark
Wpuld you be able to post the list of requirements.
Knowlage is power.
Sect 130 Criminal Code is quite specific. "Personation" is an indictable offense (arrestable when found committing) and,as such,a citizens arrest may be affected and Police called. Failing that with an unco-operative subject,gather all pertinent observations and write them down at the time of occurrence,then,contact police. It's a little more involved,but,well worth it,sending a very powerful message to OFSC and affiliates that if they screw up,they'll be skinned which has likely led to the cancellation of the program. Personally,I have absolutely no issue with going after these people with a vengence.Quote:
Originally Posted by line052
I agree with you trimmer, but I let them implicate themselves first (while video tapping), then ask them to follow me. For me the issue is keeping my firearms license and not doing anything to create a reason to have them seized, for a lie or false statements by two people verses me alone (video). It can happen quite easy today in any situation. If an OPP officer identifies himself, no matter the reason (club member or STOP) and duties he is performing, you must comply at all times. Again, it makes me angry to know many people have no idea of the law..and, had I not looked into it I would be buying $400.00 plus in trail passes per year.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
For anyone without a background in law enforcement,your post is right on. There's no way a firearms license can be revoked or firearms seized over something like as you've described,though. You're absolutely correct when dealing with a bona fide OPP/OMNRF officer,too. No matter what they say,always comply. If you don't agree,there's many mechanisms in place to contest anything,later,including court. When dealing with so-called "trail wardens" or STOP officers,never take what they say at face value. No matter what,they're not Police and as such have ZERO authority to enforce any laws other than checking permits. They better be in the right place,know what they're talking about and be correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by line052
not me, but I have witnessed a guy with a pickup and a camper go across it. The pucker factor was huge for me and I was only watching it lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Snowwalker
$400 dollar trail pass? try less then $200Quote:
Originally Posted by line052
I have 2 sleds.Quote:
Originally Posted by toddy
Trouble is that it is part of the TCAT, so it is a national trail. It is used by street legal bikes, dirt bikes, atvs, side x sides, snowmobiles, and yes 4X4 trucks and a few Subarus. Ontario is the only section of the system that is in trouble.Quote:
Originally Posted by toddy
It didn't read all the threads. However I'm gonna put my input into this. I'm not an ATVr I'm a jeeper and a member of 2 clubs. Yes we jeepers and atvrs use snowmobile trails. That being said. The money we put into the club quite often goes back to charitys, or repairing the trails.. right now one Trail in gooderham is closed. My jeep cluB, HATVA, AND KATV has raised the money to rebuild the bridge to make it useable for EVERYONE.
Ofsc does no trail maintenance in the summer it's the off-road clubs that clear deasfalls.. beer cans.. litter.. and snowmobile parts off the trails.
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Send pic of jeep...I don't believe you..:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by topher
Yes the 4x4 crowd does a lot of that work. You can carry more tools and supplies in a 4x4 then on a quad..
It's both quads and off-road ers we work together it's a hobby we all enjoy regardless of vehicle. Yes off-road ers can carry more.. there's been big work projects where a couple rigs just carry people.. sometimes we convoy quads and rigs..Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowwalker
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Send picture of heep....."YOUR" heep!I :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by topher
Here mikehttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...f9bee6e1bf.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by Snowwalker
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Is that your heep? Tell me about it....Quote:
Originally Posted by topher
Doesn't that look like me.?https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...233f0598fa.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by Snowwalker
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NO!..:(
Come on just admit it, your just tagging along with your buddy..:rolleyes:
My wife wheels hard then you...:joker:Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowwalker
https://flic.kr/p/24bLi21
https://flic.kr/p/21HyPSK
https://flic.kr/p/J63sX6
Really ... Never seen a total make this one..https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...2ef75afd46.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by Snowwalker
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But where is your heep?Quote:
Originally Posted by topher
Why buy one if you don't actually need it? I don't like these associations because they expect me to kowtow to them. Some of these can be very pushy. Several farmers around here no longer allow trails through their land because of their attitudes. Trail Police tried to tell some landowners they could not use the trail passing through their land, as well they use to give landowners free passes but cancelled that. Pretty stupid to bit the hand that feeds you and then even turn around and slap them in the face.
Quote:
Originally Posted by toddy
I understand both ends of the story, some live far enough north in the so called free zone, further south a lot of the trails run through county forests, etc where permits are required or you get charged with trespassing. I can assure you that we have a number of trail wardens that have been trained with a no confrontation attitude, rather please and thank you and educate the non compliant riders. If the non compliants don't get the permits, it is passed on to the police to deal with. Anyone telling the landowner he can't ride on a trail through his private property has to be an idiot.Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwhite
Actually if you do not ride on the trail you do not need a permit and can legally go any place on crown. As well if you have access to private land you don't need a pass.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman