Not only should you agree with this hunt but it should be province wide!
Environmental registry is up for the spring hunt!
http://www.ebr.gov.on.ca/ERS-WEB-Ext...g4&language=en
Not only should you agree with this hunt but it should be province wide!
Environmental registry is up for the spring hunt!
http://www.ebr.gov.on.ca/ERS-WEB-Ext...g4&language=en
Thanks for the link.
Good job! The link is up and running. Comments have been registered. I hope they get swamped.....and that they pay attention.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigr
Right hand side of the page!
Contact:
All comments on this proposal must be directed to:
Wildlife Policy Section
PUBLIC INPUT COORDINATOR
Ministry of Natural Resources
Policy Division
Biodiversity Branch
Wildlife Policy Section
300 Water Street
PO Box 7000
Peterborough Ontario
K9J 8M5
Phone: (705) 755-1940
Fax: (705) 755-1957
To submit a comment online, click the submit button below:
Thanks Bigr, I've sent my comment.
This is a proposal to address the nuisance animal issue and not all areas of the province have a nuisance animal problem so its really not needed province wide--yet. What is needed however is the inclusion of outfitters to really show that a spring hunt will make a difference.
Its one step at a time!
Done. Thanks for the heads up
There is no reason not to add a comment regarding a permanent province wide spring hunt.
That would be perfect for your business now wouldn't it.Quote:
Originally Posted by sawbill
All of Ontario needs this and,, be sure to add it. I'm being told to make sure we input it this way by people much higher then an x c.o.! Its needed!
We need to make all the noise now we can. If there is a call to bring everything back, They will hear that as well!
Sawbill, Just let me guide this one OK. Do you want the full hunt back? If yes the listen to what I'm saying !
EXACTLY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by mox72
As well as saying that you think all of Ontario should have been included in this 2 year study.
If you don't say it, they don't address it!
Thanks for the heads up, comment has been left!
I'm all for the return but you've got to understand the government works in slow methodical steps. Reluctance and posturing in development of the Ring of Fire is the concrete proof of that.
They've made a proposal for a nuisance hunt. That we should support whole heartedly. Do we push for inclusion of the entire province when its not needed. If we do we come off as radicals and lose credibility with our arguments. Its a simple as that.
And Bigr, I no longer run a commercial hunt so I have absolutely no vested interest in whether outfitters are included or not. What I do recognize is that for the hunt to work and actually produce results the outfitters must be involved whether you like it or not.
If this hunt goes as planned and no difference is seen with the incidence of nuisance complaints, do you really think they'll continue with the program at a pace we want to see?
I must have missed the part where it said that outfitters weren't included. I can't imagine them NOT being in on the ground floor. Why wouldn't they be? They're the people that could very well make or break the success of the hunt. I don't particularly agree that they should have exclusive access nor do I think it's right that licenses be granted to "local" hunters,either. To me,that sets a dangerous precedent for all hunting (ie. Deer or Moose tags to residents of a certain area,only,where it may be deemed that there's excessive numbers of animals).Quote:
Originally Posted by sawbill
I believe the pilot program should have been province wide. If we don't let it be known now that's it's needed everywhere we're up s creek without a paddle. I hunt wmu 60 and I try to get up every other weekend from the opening to the close of the bear season. On average my dogs tree between 25 and 35 bears every season. If I knew how to post pics I'd show you what happened to one of my dogs this past season. It's a known fact that more and more bears are being seen every year in Durham Region. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the bear population has exploded and being forced further south every year. Strike now while the iron is hot.
The province first had to agree there is a problem. DONE
Then address the problem,,, there tring to with this hunt
The short fall as long as people still keep calling in with bear issues is that it will show that it needs to expand.
Project expands.
Minister proclaimed that IF there is not enough resolution to the bear issue THEN they will need to expand more. Outfitters and Americans.
Everyone get it ?
The reality is that most people have given up on calling because they're getting no response or no results either from MNR or the police agencies who feel it is not their responsibility.
So now YOU have a way as a good outdoors guy to stand up and show proof to change there mind. Hunt is starting or part of it and
"Generally, the pilot will be assessed in a number of ways, including: tracking the number and type of calls to the Bear Wise reporting line from the pilot area and other communities, to compare results; monitoring the number of bear hunters and the number of bears harvested; working with the pilot municipalities to identify changing trends in human-bear encounters, and; working with municipalities to explore ways to limit human-bear interactions such as tracking the number of municipal by-laws to discourage the feeding of bears."
I really don't understand what you're saying here.
I know this. For MNR to get accurate info and assess the results, hunters will have to have mandatory reporting and non-hunters will also have to start calling again to report nuisance animals.
This too is going to be a problem in many places. Timmins and Sudbury have large areas that are private land and can't be hunted by residents unless they trespass. So conceivably no bears will be harvested in these areas and its these very areas where most nuisance calls come from because they surround the residential areas.
i sent in a response.this is very important as even the antis from overseas post on the EBR
Quote:
Originally Posted by sawbill
And we will still have bear issues that will cause this hunt to have to increase areas and hunter as well as Americians.
Thats the plan!
If no bears or not enough bears are taken which I agree will probibly happen,,,, then they have said it will likly change to include more.
Understand?
Over time numbers will be ballanced out so the privite land will not be as much an issue but for now. Lets get the hunt back any way we can!
I sent them this after the OFAH posted me the link today by e mail and asked for support:Quote:
Originally Posted by bigr
Hello,
I am a retired police officer,land owner,hunter and member of the Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters.Premier Mike Harris stopped the Spring Bear hunt against the best scientific advice from the MNR,OFAH,Tourist Operators and Hunters.The net result was
loss of income to Northerners and loss of public money via nuisance bear calls.
I respectfully ask that you re instate that hunt.Even although I dont presonally hunt bears I believe its the sensible and ecomomically prudent thing to do.
I would also ask you to consider the waste of gallbladders.As you know "bear gallbladders"
cannot be kept by the hunter from a legally harvested bear.This is a terrible waste of a resource.These gallbladders a very valuable to Oriental people for traditional uses and as such should be saved.They should be submitted to a MNR collection point.The MNR should have a "public auction" for International Oriental Buyers and the proceeds go
50% 50% to the MNR to fund their work and the hunter harvesting the bear.These galls
are worth their "weight in gold".By wasting them now black market prices are higher and
more bears are poached or abused in the Orient and kept for their bile in captivity.
Yours in anticipation, proud Liberal Voter.
Seriously...tell me you didn't just suggest, in writing, that the government should get into selling animals parts for profit ???
I can't believe you said that,Gilroy,in writing,no less. What were you thinking? Man,that's all we need,the wholesale slaughter of Black Bears for their galls. It's expressly illegal under any number of laws. I'm sure your letter was instantly deleted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
I think he is saying to have them turned in for free to the mnr so the MNR can sell them. I hope.
Selling of bear galls was legal for many, many years. Then in one year, Poof! it was illegal. Did someone suddenly have a brain PHart? Many in the MNR, OTA and HB Co., biologists included, were not for the change that made the sale illegal.
Add to that, there were very few facts supporting the thought that bears were being shot in Ontario solely for galls, claws or teeth. The sudden removal of a legal supply did only one thing--drive up the value of these parts making the possibility of illegal hunting more plausible.
Thank you Sawbill.Quote:
Originally Posted by sawbill
To expand on my thoughts guys I think its stupid to waste gallbladders from Legally harvested bears where you are in fact wasting the most VALUABLE part of the animal.Now its valuable to people in China,Korea and other Oriental cultures.By wasting the part you are actually feeding the black market greed and encouraging poaching.This is about supply and demand.
To give you another example.We have the Royals all getting worked up now about ivory poaching and wholesale killing of elephants.
To stop this countries are burning piles of seized tusks or grinding them down into pulp.Is this helping the elephants.No.Because it inflates the black marker price of ivory.The seized tusks should be auctioned legally to international buyers and would drop the price
of the black market poached tusks.The Royal family in the meantime should concentrate on getting back real Bearskin hats to the Grenader,Coldstream,Irish and Scots Guards instead of the synthetic ones they are now forced to use.
There is no reason why a hunter in Ontario after taking bear legally could not dry the gallbladder and drop it into a MNR checkpoint or office or even a hats for hides depot.Have the gall recorded and bear checked over,be given a receipt and sit back.A full public auction open to international buyers takes place.The proceeds get split which ever way is decided.
I dont know what other Provinces in Canada do in relation to galls but would like input from members that might know.
I dont think it would be instantly deleted because if it was read properly they would see that I said :Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
"As you know "bear gallbladders" cannot be kept by the hunter from a legally harvested bear."
Hopefully giving me the courtesy of actually reading the request which you appeared not to do.Thanks.
Yes turned in to the MNR with a check made of the gall and bear,receipt given,auction held,proceeds to hunter and ministry.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigr
Really not unlike the hats for hides programme concept,turn in a hide get a hat.
OK,I stand corrected. I understand what you mean.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
Comment submitted..... Thanks for the link.
I'm pretty sure we don't use terms like "Oriental" in Canada. And bear bile doesn't do much. UDCA can be synthesized and most people don't even know what it's good for. I don't think we should promote bladder trade. We don't need to invite people from other countries to come here and take our bear bladders.
The term Oriental used in Canada? You're pretty sure but you're also pretty wrong. Just off the top of my head the Canadian National Railways has coined the term 'Oriental Express' for a trans Canada CN passenger train ' which specifically caters to 'Oriental' tourists travelling coast to coast during the summer months. google it if you wish.
Whether you feel bear bile doesn't do much is not relevant when you consider that almost every natural cure used by man from the dawn of time is available in some pill or bottle nowadays. Many people from many different cultures and countrys still prefer the choice of natural cure over plastic.
And if you feel we shouldn't be inviting people from other countries (specifically Asian) to buy our bear galls, then maybe they shouldn't be coming here to buy our furs and our fish either.
So in one fell swoop you've joined the ranks of the antis who would dearly love to see fur trappers, commercial fishermen and hunters put out of business.
We're talking public perception here overriding any logic....we lost the Spring Bear hunt due to the public outcry of Cubs being orphaned.....you think that in your wildest dreams you going to get the public to accept that the MNR is a dealer in Body parts for a foreign market for use as some 'Miracle Elixir' ?Quote:
Originally Posted by sawbill
The importance of bear gall in Chinese traditional medicine can be found at this site. Many of the modern cures enjoyed today are derived from natural sources but chemically altered by the big pharmaceuticals for huge profits. Medicinal marijuana is a recent example hence the resistance by lobby groups to make it main stream.
http://www.china.org.cn/video/2012-0...t_24679572.htm
Bears are hunted for their fur first and then the meat takes second place. Claws, teeth and galls are an added bonus.
Beaver are trapped for their furs, the meat is used for baits. Castor is sold for use in perfumes and that too is added bonus. Nobody shoots or traps beaver just for the castor.
Its just too bad bears have this stigma of being shot for galls only but the entire issue developed from some protected/endangered breed of bear in Asia and the antis have been successful in selling the thought that all bears are endangered.
You're absolutely right. Its all perception and the antis win that aspect every time.
If you want logic you might need to think on this longer.How "logical" is it to waste a gallbladder which are worth their weight in goldQuote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
and boost the black market price when supply and demand would be satisfied by selling galls legally harvested to meet that demand.
Same as for ivory,the Chinese demand has and never will deminish,but governments are destroying stock plies of poached tusks.Again
boosting demand which is meet by more illegally obtained tusks.Little info from the web:
Price of products[edit]
Raw bile can sell for as much as U.S.$24,000 a kilogram, approximately half the price of gold.[3]
A report published in 2013 stated that a poacher in North America can usually get U.S.$100 to $150 for a gall bladder, but the organs can fetch U.S.$5,000 to $10,000 in the end-market once they are processed into a powder. The report also stated that the HSUS indicated a bear gall bladder can cost more than $3,000 in Asia.[20] A TRAFFIC report estimated that prices for whole gall bladders were as low as $51.11 (Myanmar) and as high as $2,000 (Hong Kong SAR). For gall bladder by the gram, the least expensive was $0.11 per gram (Thailand) and the highest was $109.70 per gram (Japan).[1]
Pill prices ranged from as low as $0.38 per pill (Malaysia) to $3.83 per pill (Thailand).[1]
I am sure we could convince any logical taxpayer in Ontario that a regulated auction putting on the block a previously wasted resource would be right.After all the money could go back into any government programme,my choice would be MNR to maybe buy them some extra gas for their patrol vehicles.The entire infra structure is already there for a check station set up the only missing part is using logic and political skill.For hunters in the north getting a 50% cut of a sold bladder its welcome cash.If your afraid cash
might be to tempting as a reward any other reward could be used for turning in the gall.
The only thing wrong with having the government run this is that it will cost more to administer than the revenue it will generate.
Well if that be the case they could have a private trusted organisation run it.I know the hats for hides is a little different but something on that model.Drop of your bear skin get a hat,drop off your dry gallbladders with your license number,report on kill,Quote:
Originally Posted by werner.reiche
get your receipt and wait for your cash at end of auction.A auction for galls could be run alongside Fur Auctions as buyers would
be the same,kill two birds with one stone.
In your doomed plan...since your NOT allowed to keep the gall bladder...you could not profit from it...same as deer.... you forfeit it..maybe get a free "Bile Badge" haha... :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
we all know you cant keep the gall bladder at present therefore you cant profit.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
You don't do condescension well Gilroy...comes across as just childish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
I understand your point full well, it's a half baked idea that for some reason you think has wheels. As I said earlier....it's all 'optics'...you'll never succeed in convincing the public to sanction the MNR/Government to sell organs from Hunter harvested bears on the open market. Even in China it's a divisive issue having Bears Farms supplying the bile.
You dont do logic very well either,we are on a thread about re instating the Spring Bear Hunt which is presently illegal and you are getting all excited about my suggestion to sort out the gallbladder issue which is also illegal.Do you have a stance on the OP.Is it also a half baked idea,nobody is going to convince the Government on anything if we sit in our collective hands be it bringing back the hunt or waste of a resource ie gallbladders.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
The only person on this thread that confused the issue was you Gilroy...YOU introduced the off wall idea "We should sell the Gall Bladders " in your letter...I just pointed out it was a ridiculous to suggest it to a public that still doesn't even support the Spring Bear Hunt let alone selling off the body parts....that's when you decided to sink to personal slights to strengthen your argument and in doing so lost your credibility to debate the issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
In YOUR opinion its an off the wall idea,in YOUR opinion its a half baked idea,but your one person and you know what they say about opinions.
I believe that injecting the gall issue into the mix, will only serve to reinforce the Anti's resolve in fighting the reinstatement of a spring hunt. Not a wise move....period !
It may happen in the short term,but,I think it's an election ploy to try and take northern ridings away from the NDP. After all,when you think about,how can the Libs loose with the NDP being rock-solidly pro gun control and the PC's still sticking to being in the spring bear hunt cancellation camp. I could be wrong,but,if the Liberals win the next election,they could make it disappear as quickly as it appeared by simply claiming that the "pilot project has run it's course and it didn't work out."Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
Could be but if its an election ploy to get them in and they pull the wool over or eyes and say the pilot project didnt work out,they simply set themselves up for a kick in the a..,come the next election.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
Bear gall bladers harvested legally and then sold by the government simply influences the value of a bear gall bladers. Can't be a good thing for the bears. I think the Asians that claim medicinal value from these bladers should get their medicine elsewhere.
The OFAH stance:
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/bear-hunter...W4tQ0E-;_ylv=3Quote:
The Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters says anti-hunting lobbyists could still scuttle the plan for the first spring bear hunt in Ontario in 15 years.
In a surprise announcement last fall, Minister of Natural Resources David Orazietti announced the return of a "limited" spring bear hunt in May.
The cancellation of the hunt back in 1999 created a political problem every Ontario government since has had to deal with.
The upcoming hunt is a pilot project and will be limited to selected areas of the north.
But the province's largest outdoor lobby group is telling bear hunters to avoid complacency.
Terry Quinney of the Federation of Anglers and Hunters says public support of the hunt is vital.
"To ensure that, for example, those animal rights extremists who successfully lobbied a premier 15 years ago, don't do the same this time," he said.
I fully support this pilot project and a spring bear hunt is long over due in
Ontario.
This hunt should have included all of Ontario and the full spring bear hunt
reinstated as too pre 1999 regulations.
In most of northern Ontario, the people who live there have seen a dramatic
increase in human bear conflict since 1999 and in using the population model
that the MNR uses, I can prove that bear densities are 3-4 times higher in the
Markstay Warren as well as the Onaping Falls regions.
In Ontario we manage ALL big game by a WMU basis except for Black Bear which is
a discredit to the animal and a false population estimate for population in
Northern Ontario. We say we have 1 bear per 10 square Kilometers which fits the
model but in using all of Ontario's vast size we include a large area (south of
the French River) where bear numbers are much lower then most areas in the
North. In the south these numbers might be closer to the model but far off the
densities seen in the north.
Bears that I have seen in the bush as well as on trail cameras (10 Baited areas
in both regions ) have shown and increase in social problems where more battle
scars on bears from fighting between bears has jumped in the past 10 years
dramatically.
As well as the social behavior between bears seeing change, More Calf Moose
carcases are being found by outdoorspeople then witnessed prior to 1999. In
Newfoundland there is a study too see if bears are changing there habits from
opportunistic hunters too now laying in wait for moose. This change in bear
behavior is based on over population as the habitat is falling shot in
supporting a growing black bear population.
Since 1999 Northern Ontario, ALL of Northern Ontario has seen large human bear
conflicts and because of the lack of support felt by many of these communities,
residents took to just shooting these bears because people at the MNR were
directing residents to do so.
"Many people in these smaller communities just stopped calling in nuisance
bears and too just shooting them and this should be looked at in this project."
All communities should have been given the respect and asked if bears are an
issue and if a hunt needs to take place.
If this is the case, which it is, This only would prove the full reinstatement
of the spring Black Bear season in Ontario should begin as well as the
environment issues, habitat, and social bear issues.