I have a 3 year old gsp with great bloodlines,,. He has never hunted before, Ive never seen him point naturally like things around the yard.. where do I start training him for partridge
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I have a 3 year old gsp with great bloodlines,,. He has never hunted before, Ive never seen him point naturally like things around the yard.. where do I start training him for partridge
In the woods. Ha ha ha.....never lose your sense of humour.
I'd start by getting him a solid foundation in obedience that is well proofed. He is not too old to be productive but his pedigree will give you the best indication of what he can blossom into.....or not. Regardless of the effort you put into him, your odds are not good if he has a ped rich in CH's that precede his registered name or FDJs that follow his name. Now, if he is not at all registered, you are gambling but that doesn't mean he can't develop into the finest bird dog you've ever had.
Here is my generalized approach. Spend LOTS of time with yard work. Spend lots of time in the grouse/woodcock woods BUT ask nothing of him in the woods. Put some tape over your lips and let him learn from his mistakes. That will accelerate his learning curve and will not confound the core lessons he must get under his belt without the verbal run-off. If there is anything you should not do it is to go afield with a weak obedience file and then run around the woods yelling and screaming "HERE!! Here you S.O.B.! HERE....WHOA....WHOA....HEEEEERE!!!".
You'd be amazed at how many folk do that on a regular basis to the point where they think it IS what hunting with a bird dog represents.
This may seem over-simplified but if you do the yardwork up front and can get him on a healthy number of wild birds, you might be surprised.
Do NOT buy pen-raised birds and put them in a launcher(s) for your dog!!! Pigeons could be used but you need to REALLY know how to use them effectively as opposed to how I read most folk use them.
All the best,
Ugo
if I let him run wild birds,and he busts them and flushs etc and I dont either correct or commend what exactly is he learning? Im not being smart I honestly dont know and would love to pick all your brains. He has good obedience training, and doesnt usaully chase out of range.
He is learning how to find wild birds (hunt) and having a good time doing it which is the first thing you need in order to make a bird dog.Quote:
Originally Posted by toddc
he has found birds i mean we have flushed lots while walking
Given the relative difficulty of training on scarce wild birds are you saying less bird contact is preferred to supplementing exposure with pen birds? I find Chukars actually are far jumpier than woodcock and will hold for the dog but won't tolerate crowding by the shooter. Also we can train in the off season with actual shooting of birds and all the training that entails. If you feel we are hurting our training progress I sure would appreciate the advice on how to do it properly? By the way it's nice to see you Pros back, we newbies take the advice seriously.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ugo
In his three years has he caught birds? If he has he has taught himself he does not need to point and there may be some difficulty in get him to stop chasing. The other factor is how strong a pointing instinct did he have? If he as a low pointing instinct which is inherited you will require contact with many birds in a controlled environment.
Dick
no catches , but everything Ive read (and its been alot) agree's with what you have said.. In fact I have not read anywhere that exposure to wild birds without control was a good thing. Not to say what other posters have said is wrong Im just trying to put it all togetherQuote:
Originally Posted by BDH
You haven't read enough. :) just kidding you :)Quote:
Originally Posted by toddc
I think it's a very good thing. It teaches all the things you can't teach . It teaches the dog what it is looking for ; it teaches the dog that it can't catch a bird by chasing (hopefully). From there normally, you get a dog that will start to creep/hold point , at which time you start with human controls - no more chasing.
In the old days, trainers who had land would let their pup run loose for a year learning all those things BEFORE formal training started.
** The more the dog can learn on its OWN, the better. That's how you get a dog to hold point for ............minutes until you get there.
All you need at this point is to teach your dog to come when called in the field . jmo
If he has been chasing birds for 3 years you may be in a situation where you are breaking the habit and not the dog. In which case you may need some hands on help.
What have you read? Mostly books or internet chatter? Just so we have an idea of where you are coming from.
allow me to be more specific,, we spend time in the bush and he is hunting non stop,, he hasnt shown any particular interest in birds more then anything else.. I wanted to try him on pigeons and a lead to get him to point and hold so he has idea what he is supposed to be looking for. Right now he is just having fun with all the smells of the bush. We have had to move and so he got no hunting training just obedience training. Of course he loves playing with the kids but will only listen to me as far as commands, and he is pretty good at it to. Now I want him to focus his training on ruffed grouse.
This is the method I use.
http://www.huntsmith.com/
There are several good articles at the bottom of the page.
I would strongly suggest to everyone that if one of these seminars comes near to you that you attend. Rick was inducted into the Brittany section of the Bird Dog Hall of Fame in Grand Junction TN this weekend.
Sharon has a good grasp on my intent/strategy however you have offered quite a bit of additional info as this post evolves. Unfortunately, my recommendations often exclude a base or rudimentary knowledge that I sometimes assume everyone has. I apologize for this. You might have to read into what I post, sometimes. Most recently I sent a private message to Sharon and her response had me wondering!?! Then, I re-read my message and she is right. It was a very poor effort on my part. Stating and doing can sometimes be quite diverse.
I don't do things like most trainers - professional or not. For that matter some of the things I used to do as recently as 5 years ago are nothing short of laughable to me today. I don't have a specific template that I impose on pups/dogs that come here because like you and I, we are all different. One of my assets is that I've been at this a long time and have made MANY mistakes along the way. Be careful though! Some folk have been at this as long as I have and still implement those same concepts that emerged in the 60/70s! We have progressed light-years since then!
The picture you most currently have painted for me of your dog - if I get this right - is that your dog treats bird finds like other intriguing scents. This concerns me - not if you were talking about a young pup that was newly experiencing the wonders of being outdoors - but because he is 3 years old, even if he wasn't previously hunted. You have not offered details regarding his pedigree, assuming you have one? This is important. Then again, you may not have one so..........?
Furthermore, since you now describe a dog that HAS encountered a lot of birds of late, you need to go back to the obedience side of the house and I don't mean just "come" or "heel". Do you have a strong foundation in the "Whoa" command (I use "whoop" with a lilt because it should be a positive supportive word and "whoa" happens to rhyme with "No"). Sorry....I'm all over the place aren't I?
So, if you have PROOFED your "whoop" you are now in a position to take him afield for further proofing. I think you get the picture by now. Anyway, you can follow the mainstream processes available to you as they come with more background literature and more folk with dogs that have gone that route.
All the best in future Todd.
Ugo
Terry, the wrong kind of birds - especially pen-raised - can in fact ruin a bird dog in it's developmental stages simply because whether it be quail or chukar, they are too slow. These dogs are supposed to be learning respect for birds but instead learn how stupid/easy to catch they are.
Once said dog is reliably steady, you can use it on virtually any bird species.
Now I see where you were going with that. I very quickly realized that coturnix quail were more damage than good. They just weren't strong enough flyers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ugo
Coturnix are what I used to use to proof a Brittany I was field trialing years ago. I would walk that bird under and around the dog. That dog became VERY steady.
Most pen-raised birds just don't have the savvy to elude an unruly or young dog. So, I just don't use them until AFTER the dog is steady.