I stumbled across this. I am offering no commentary, simply sharing it for informational purposes.
http://seanlinnane.blogspot.ca/2010/...er-muzzle.html
I stumbled across this. I am offering no commentary, simply sharing it for informational purposes.
http://seanlinnane.blogspot.ca/2010/...er-muzzle.html
I never got involved with black powder. A friend of mine lost three fingers reloading his Hawken M/L. He fired one shot,poured the powder down the barrel,put the wad and ball on the muzzle,started to ram the bullet down and BANG! Two fingers on his right hand blew off immediately and the MD's removed what was left of the third. Every once in a while I feel like getting into it,then,I go and have a snooze until the feeling goes away.
That didn't go off while loading. The person used a volumetric measure for smokeless powder and probably thought the grain weight and volume where the same. That is what I get from the story. OUCH!
The individual is very lucky that there wasn’t more damage to his hand.
Of course he didn’t read the manual carefully and wasn’t even remotely knowledgeable about smokeless muzzle loading. In order to produce that kind of rupture would require over 120,000psi to exceed the tensile strength of the barrel. I’m almost willing to bet he didn’t even use a recommended powder to achieve that kind of result.
Smokeless muzzle loading is safe if you learned the required amount to do it safely.
Just like driving a vehicle it can be safe or deadly depending what you do from what you have or haven’t learned.
Ed
Wow! That's got to be a one in a million occurrence!Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
I've been shooting black powder for over 50 years without any kind of mishap or injury. Most of my friends have also been shooting muzzle loaders for many years with no problems.
Shooting black powder is so much fun - I don't think you should deny yourself the opportunity to experience such a great sport just because of one extremely rare accident.
The accident may have occurred because of a spark (maybe from a bit of smoldering patch) remaining in the barrel. This unlikely occurrence can be alleviated by running a damp patch down the barrel before reloading.
True, Pete. Every book I ever read on muzzleloading recommends (and I do it religiously) that after firing a shot, run a damp patch down the bore to ensure there are no embers. It also makes the next ball easier to seat.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenLakePete
Thanks for the info,Pete and KC. I know my luck. I learned along time ago about me and Murphy's Law. Sometimes,I couldn't get lucky in a cat house with a fist full of fifties.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenLakePete
Man that is just nasty...
I'm in the same club as you.. I really want a smoke pole some day.. But.. If there's a hole and I'm walking in a field I'll find it.. Was walking down a frozen river with my buddy a few weeks ago, I found the soft spot.. He was less than three feet from me.. He stayed dry.. I got wet..Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenLakePete
I am a new traditional MLer. I have never given thought to this. Thank you for the heads up gentlemen. Pete, you mention in your post that this unlikely occurrence can be alleviated by running a damp patch down the barrel before reloading. Do you follow this practice personally as well?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilo Charlie
Hard to see how that happened....if there was an ember down in the breach it would have ignited the powder as soon and he put it in or as he tamped it down....it would have gone off with nothing more than a flash. The chances of it not igniting till after he had the wad and ball in are hugely slim.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
Yeah sounds to me like there was a primer on the nipple or possibly even accidently dropped down the barrel, the savage smokeless incident appears more to me like a barrel obstruction rather than an overload, possibly double loaded the projectile!Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
If you re read the information it has nothing to do with ember in the barrel or the charge going off while loading. The person used a black powder volumetric powder measure to measure a smokeless load. He could have had double or triple charged the rifle depending on the powder used, that is why a scale is recommended. Then the gun was fired and the barrel burst causing the injuries. Not sure how the hot ember idea got started but its about using the proper method to measure the powder.
But remember he was shooting smokeless powder , its a lot more powerful.
If you re read the information in all the posts you will realize there are two different situations being discussed here with some good information being passed on to those who are interestedQuote:
Originally Posted by rcoulas
Removed
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
I don't know enough about M/L's ,their workings or black powder to comment. I'm not sure what caused the accident. I just know that I don't ever intend to find out the hard way.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlmorgan
I won't show you any pictures of a chainsaw accident then, you may never use one them either....how about knives, do you have any in the kitchen :)Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
That whole story is flaky....it's been floated around the net for years and no one has ever been able to corroborate it.
Randy Wakeman discussed it in the article on the Lawsuits Savage was facing.
http://randywakeman.com/HowToBlowUpASavage10ML.htm
Quote:
A fellow from Canada sent Toby pictures of a rifle that he allegedly blew-up and further claimed that he was using 42.5 grains of SR-4759 and a 250 grain Barnes. All of this is more than a bit odd, as we don't have any witnesses, no sworn statement, no corroboration, no professional investigation of the incident, and no proper examination of the rifle-- or any examination of the rifle at all for that matter.
from my reading that is what was suspected...a double load...Quote:
Originally Posted by jlmorgan
To be honest - no, I don't do it every time. As I said - it is such a 1 in a million possibility that I don't see the need. If I'm shooting for a score I do but that really is for accuracy not safety.Quote:
Originally Posted by smallgamer
Thanks for the clarification Pete.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcoulas
Just for the heck of it, I decided to see how much 100 grains/volume of 4759 (the powder I use in my Savage) weighed. I came up with 82 grains by weight on my scale. Almost double the recommended load. I would not want to be anywhere near that gun going off.Quote:
Originally Posted by rcoulas
Delmer
No one should want to be around a double load but the 10ML-II is designed to handle such a load without rupturing. Yes the bore (lands) will be damaged requiring replacement. The barrel is rated as follows;
Yield strength over 80,000psi.
Tensile strength of at least 118,000psi.
When the 10ML-II was first introduced a promotion was done using a double load fired by Ron Coburg president of Savage to demonstrate the reliability of the smokeless10ML-II.
Now if there was a double load and the ramrod left in the bore that would be another story.
Ed
LOL.Here's the kind of luck I have when I mess with explosives. Picture two ten year olds messing with a junior chemistry set mixing this and that in my buddy's Dad's garage. Nothing happens so that's no fun. We leave to play down the street and hear a big WHUMP. We turn around toward the garage in time to watch a garage door go rolling across the lawn. We weren't allowed to play with a chemistry set,anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
The only case of a "Blown Up" 10ML-II was from a double load....confirmed.Quote:
Originally Posted by ET1
Quote:
By now, you can probably guess what is coming. Bob completely loaded his already completely loaded Savage. Down went another 43 grains of SR4759, down went another 250 grain SST. Sure, Bob had a witness mark but it doesn't do you much good if you don't use it. Bob also didn't notice that his loading rod didn't go down as much as normal, as it was left protruding the additional combined length of the extra powder charge column, the extra sabot, and the extra 250 grain SST. Bob quickly primed the gun and fired, and the gun came apart.
The chocolate layer cake load that Bob constructed consisted of seven components: primer, powder, sabot, bullet, powder, sabot, bullet. You have to break just about every rule in the book to get there, but it happened. Using information from Hartmut Broemel of Babenhausen, Germany, and Johan Loubser of Western Powders, I ran the numbers to get a rough idea of the peak pressure potential of that load that happened 2 milliseconds after Bob hit the Accu-Trigger. The maximum pressure potential of that load exceeds 316,000 PSI, roughly nine times the pressure of any Savage recommended load. That is of course more than ample pressure to destroy any commercially available shoulder-fired weapon I can think of. The SAAMI MAP for the .50 BMG, for example, is 54,000 PSI, with nothing running higher than 65,000 PSI MAP that I can think of.
Mike Pal
Interesting read. The only person I have ever heard mention the name Hartmut Broemel is Randy Wakeman. He is proclaimed as an expert with loads that are directly exposed to primer ignition. The Savage is of different design which allows the use of powders that are normally found in pistols or smaller cartridges and not considered for larger cartridges.
Let’s look at the load itself constructed as such mentioned.
Primer initially only ignites 43gr 4759 because the second half of powder load is separated by sabot and bullet. Once pressure builds forcing the sabot cup to expand it seals off the bore for hot gas propagation beyond sabot.
So the first question is can the second powder charge be even ignite?
Is the calculated pressure presented based on 43gr 4759 or 86gr 4759?
Keep in mind that the powder loads are not combined but separated.
A proper single load only generates around 35,000psi. Yes pressure buildup to peak is not linear.
Let’s look at the additional weight of powder, sabot and bullet. Powder 43grns, sabot approximately 11grns and bullet 250grns. Combined weight is 304grns almost equivalent to a 300grn bullet. Now there have been stories of people shooting their ramrod out of the bore and their weight is definitely higher than 304grns. Worst case scenario is damaged bore but not any rupture.
Add to the fact that I mentioned in another thread that I have unintentionally experienced a double load resulting only in a damaged bore. Even though it was unintentional I still take full responsibility for what happened because it resulted from what I did.
Individuals like Toby Bridges and Randy Wakeman can proclaim what they want falling on their recognized status. Many others who don’t have a specific working knowledge in this area are relying on what they present. Funny how my findings don’t always add up to 100% of what they convey that raises additional questions. Not saying I’m an expert but sometimes what I read doesn’t add up to what I’m experiencing.
As to what level of safety a person wishes to employ that is derived from their reasoning and understanding, excess or additional is always good.
In the picture of the damaged 10ML-II I saw no opened sites as they appeared to be removed. My big unanswered question did the rear sight threaded hole have a replacement screw installed? Leaving an exposed threaded hole that is now unsupported in the area near max pressure can’t be a good thing and may alter the strength of the bore.
Ed
That was my first thought as well Ed.....why would the second powder charge ignite if it was sitting above the 'sealed' sabot....I would have guessed it would have travelled as a package and been dumped out the end of the barrel. If however he was using a stiff cupped sabot the flame may have snuck thru the bore grooves or powder from the upper load may have stuck in the groove and trailed behind as the sabot moved across and provided a path for the ignition.Quote:
Originally Posted by ET1
The fact that the shooter has 'confessed' his errors and substantiates the story I tend to lean toward believing it happened as presented.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ET1
An articulate way of saying " I think he's full of chit" ..LOL....
I hear you, but I have taken to accepting some things at face value due to the constrictions of brevity in articles that are published for internet consumption. I'm sure if you were to ask for clarification on a point of concern, the author would be more than happy to provide more information.
Mike Pal
I’m not politely saying they are full of it but the way the facts are being presented and conclusions being derived don’t fully corroborate leaving unanswered questions.
I once considered TB & RW authorities of muzzle loading when I first started out. But my goal also was to learn as much as possible for the workings of a muzzle loader especially smokeless muzzle loading and I’m still learning.
I’m not trying to persuade anyone to change their way of thinking or choice of acceptance but when something doesn’t totally ring true from my learned perspective I feel I need to voice it just like others for additional awareness. How that info is accepted by others is up to them to decide.
Ed
I was thinking about that too. Why would 2 loads ignite at once?Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
Got me to thinking of the "Roman Candle" muzzle loading rifles of the 1800's. They'd have several loads one on top of the other and rather than all go off at once they'd fire like a - well, Roman Candle. www.scotwars.com/equip_firearms2.htm
Also there were firearms made (in the 1800's) with multiple hammers that would fire one superposed load after another.
Not a whole lot of details on what he actually did other than the presumption of a volume load rather than a weighed load. Just did a quick check and if he did that it would be easy to double the charge if not more than double it.
Hmmmm, sure doesn't hurt to read, understand and follow the manual. :confused:
HA
The single most important thing you can do it mark your range rod....and trust it. A double load is careless.Quote:
Originally Posted by huntaway
Because of my memory...I have got in into the habit of being rather anal about the loading process and lay it out in a step by step format in front of me, forces me to work from left to right. I also don't allow myself to get distracted during the load, too dangerous a task not to give it the attention it deserves.
A few yrs ago by buddy and I were sharing the kit as we were loading for the morning hunt. I missed a step and it nearly cost me a buck...I was waiting to use the range rod to seat the bullet (had only used the ball starter) and got side tracked. Later, I had the Buck dead to rights at 15 yrs, so I pulled the trigger and heard a weird sound and the deer walked about 20 yards away....no hit..the bullet probably didn't make it 1/2 way there. Thankfully I had a speed loader and was able to get the second load in while he was still occupied. I took him with the second shot.
Have to have a process and stick with it....
Mike Pal
You are absolutely right about being organized when loading a muzzle loader and the use of some kind of witness mark to verify the correct amount is in the bore. As previously stated if you don’t use the witness mark then you are your own susceptible to a possible grievous error.
There are also a few different methods for witness marks and the one I do employ is from my own built T handles that has an adjustable sleeve. When I use a specific load the sleeve is set approximately 1/16”above the stop point at the bore when the bullet-load bottoms. Then enough compression is added until sleeve is lowered just contacting the stop point.
This final 2-step method always forces me to monitor my load.
Also I believe there is a range ramrod available that has an adjustable collar for presetting a witness mark. The simplest method is using tape wrapped onto the ramrod. Here a high contrasting tape should be used so that your eye quickly turns its attention towards the tape and location when loading.
Regardless of the method you employ for a witness mark it’s a life line preventing disastrous or costly consequence. But it only works when you use it.
Ed
I hate it when my witness mark dissappears down the barrel. :ashamed:
HA