Printable View
Does anyone know why a dog will all of a sudden start growling.....he hasn't been shown any anger towards him or abuse......he can be playing or just laying there getting rubbed and bang he switches and this deep down growl starts echoing out of him....to be honest it scares the out of me.....he never tries to nip but that growl is concerning to me....any ideas how to stop it or why it is happening......thanks
Possibly he is testing the waters to see if he can move up in the family pecking order?... Just a thought. Like a teenager wanting a go at the old man!... I would pin him into submission and let him know whose the boss... I am no expert but that's my opinion.
I recommend flipping him over on his back and holding him down until he submits. No need to hurt him but it shows who's the boss. I have had to do this a few times over the years with some of my dogs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by grizzlygreig
This is not the best way to handle the situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by yellow dog
Dogs may growl for any number of reasons. Dogs even growl while playing. It is something they do to communicate and it does not necessarily indicate that they are trying to move up in the pecking order -- it is not even necessarily aggressive. Indeed, the notion that a dog will try to take over as pack leader is an invention of human psychology, which has nothing to do with the social behaviour of dogs.
There is not enough information here to say what the correct response should be. My first question would be, how much training work do you do with the dog on a daily basis?
X2 ( but I personally wouldn't do this much past 8 months)Quote:
Originally Posted by grizzlygreig
plus work with him more on obedience expectations. ... sit before he eats , waits at the door and you go out first , no rough play , no tug of war games where he wins, etc...
PS The behaviour is not that unusual for a dominant dog. My 15 pound JRT still needs all I've mentioned daily too. :)
I agree with welsh. Those are definitely not the best ways to handle it. You want your dog to respect you, and to do good things to please you because they love/want to do things that please you. Having a dog do things for you out of fear only dumbs the dog down.
It's really hard to say what's going on here without seeing what the dog is doing, but he's still a puppy. I highly doubt it's aggression but more of a teenage phase where he's testing the waters. My suggestion would be to stop showing him attention when he does this (with a little "hey", or "ahh") and he should quickly learn that this is unwanted behaviour.
Repeat and if he does it again stop showing him attention again.
What's his body posture like? How his ears and eyes? Pupils dilated looking you in the eye? Showing teeth?
But, if he's growling when playing then this is pretty normal. He could even be over tired. I'm not so sure about the growling while he's just lying there being petted. Again, it's tough to say without seeing it, but if he's growling when just laying there being petted then I'd stop with the attention.Quote:
Originally Posted by last5oh_302
Like the dog in your avatar? LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by terrierman41
What kinds of games are you playing when he starts growling? More info about the circumstances would help. And the questions about his posture are important, too.
Mine started a bit of growling at around 6 months. He was definitely trying to exert his dominance and push boundaries. During this time, he would also test us by not following simple commands, like "come" or "sit". (That could possibly be a way of figuring out if he's testing his boundaries or if there's another problem.) It took a bit of patience at times. When he started growling, it was game over -- we would stop what we were doing and say "hey" roughly, looking him right in the eyes until he backed off. Once he showed submission, he would get attention again.
It's startling when it happens -- this is your puppy, right -- but it's important to deal with it right away. You have to remain the dominant one. That said, we've been taught by trainers that if a dog gets aggressive, you grab it my the nose and bring it to the floor (without hurting, of course) until it whimpers in submission. We were taught that this would be what its mother would do. I'm sure there are several opinions out there on this method...
Is he growling and showing teeth. ears back , bristling? Or is he growling in pleasure?....I sometimes growl with pleasure, when being properly petted.:rolleyes:
Lol. She just finished killing a groundhog and was still pretty pumped in the pic.Quote:
Originally Posted by last5oh_302
My experience has proven to be the opposite of yours. This is the first sign of a dog saying or by body language I am the boss. My response quickly corrects this behaviour without hurting the dog. It has work for me any many others i know. It has to be done quickly in order to correct the issue. I would not respond in the same manner as what welsh describes. I have worked with many dogs in a team and pack environment and yes a pecking order is created by the most dominant .Quote:
Originally Posted by welsh
This is a good example when to react and show who is the boss. Perfect example.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wife
There is very big difference between a dog growling in play and an aggressive growl. I would never tolerate a dog trying to dominate or intimidate me. Thats when you grag them by the scruff and pin them down into submission.
Yes and it doesn't have to hurt them but completely catch them off guard.
I'm not up to snuff with the latest methods for training, but I've never had to get physical with any of my dogs.
Some will say dominate that biatch, and others will say you should never have to grab your dog by the scruff, or touch the dog at all. Newer methods would dictate the latter. It seems most reputable trainers do not agree with Caesar Milan's methods.
I'll be doing professional training for my first time ever (always did my own in the past) when I get a new pup and I'm really looking forward to it. I'm sure I'll learn a lot.
Yes there is and that growl in play has a chance to turn into the real thing if you let it go on too long. I agree with The Wife and YD on this one. It's tough to know without seeing the dog but it sounds like this pup is starting to grow a pair. Make sure he knows your pair is bigger.Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
Edit: you don't have to put your hands on him to show him you are the boss.
Ceasar Millan is the man, period. He understands the pack which is key to a well balanced, mentally stable, happy dog.Quote:
Originally Posted by last5oh_302
I'm going to be blunt. You are flat-out wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by yellow dog
Dogs form dominance hierarchies within their own packs and within informal groups. But they do not form hierarchies between dogs and humans and establishing dominance over humans is not part of their social behaviour. They do not mistake you for a dog, and they do not think you are part of their pack.
The idea that you must establish dominance over the dog is an artifact of human psychology, not of dog behaviour. This appeals to the trainer's ego, his need to establish that he is In Charge. This dominance theory was concocted by dog trainers as a way of establishing that their system of dog training was based on some scientific understanding of dog behaviour, based on the behaviour of wolf packs. But further study of the social behaviour of both wolves and dogs revealed that the social behaviour of wild wolf packs bore little resemblance to the captive wolf packs that had originally given rise to the whole "alpha wolf" thing, and even less resemblance to the behaviour of dogs.
I am not sure what you mean when you say "I would not respond in the same manner as what welsh describes," as I have not prescribed any response, but only said there is not enough information here to know what response is appropriate. To advise someone on how to deal with what he believes is an aggression problem, based on only the vaguest description of the behaviour, is simply irresponsible. Any one signal from a dog -- growling, e.g. -- is meaningless without knowing what other signals accompany it. There is no way to know if any advice will help, or make the problem worse, without knowing what is really happening.
That said, an 8-month-old dog that growls when playing is almost certainly not showing aggression. Growling is part of the normal vocabulary of dogs at play, and if it is accompanied by play-bows and other typical play behaviour, rather than agonistic displays such as teeth-baring, then it is not a sign of aggression or of "dominance." If this is the case, the dog is simply playing normally and grabbing it by the neck and rolling it onto its back while sternly correcting it is at best silly, and at worst counterproductive. If you want to train the dog to stop growling at play, the simplest approach is simply to correct it verbally and stop playing when it growls. The dog will soon learn that growling stops the fun.
As far as the dog growling, apparently at random, while being petted, this is a bit more complex and there is no way to know what is going on without knowing more. But in general, any sign of aggression in a dog is best dealt with indirectly, and not by provoking a physical contest with the dog.
Welsh you are way off on this. That answer regarding the pack and interaction between dogs and humans was written by someone who wants to discredit something they don't understand.Quote:
Originally Posted by welsh
That's a pretty good answer Welch. Like many situations on the net, we only get a glimpse of a situation and usually need more info first hand to respond accordingly.
The real gem in your answer though is 'indirect pressure'. Many will not understand the concept but it is highly effective in teaching and maintaining high level retriever skills. This compared to the 'old' fashion direct method is often debated but direct pressure as we know it now in all retriever circles is much less effective.
Growling by the way is part of a larger issue more aptly described as vocalizing. We work on dogs from the outset to minimize vocalizing whether it's whining in a duck blind or plain barking. Unfortunately early habits established can be difficult to deal with later on.
Well I have to be blunt with you. What the heck are you talking about ? I am merely describing my experience that worked for me many times and others as well. I have been commended on always having well behaved happy dogs that listen because of the correct technique used.You can read all the latest dog behaviour articles you want but to say someone is wrong based on a proven technique that has worked many times over is foolish. I am not talking about an 8 month old dog that growls when playing. It really doesn't matter if you agree with me or not but people on this forum also have advice that will work besides yourself. Reading your article above offered no advice to the forum member that posted this thread ? You simply gave vague pieces of information that didn't amount to anything .
That's unfortunate, because that's the topic of the thread:Quote:
Originally Posted by yellow dog
The OP is concerned because his 8-mo-old Lab is growling, while playing and at other times. This is why I suggested that an 8-mo-old dog that growls while playing is probably not showing aggression, but simply normal (if undesirable) play behaviour.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deerslayer99
I think I explained quite clearly why I hesitate to be specific. I hope the OP will share some additional details.Quote:
Originally Posted by yellow dog
What you don't see on his show is how many times he does really get bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakezilla
Ok wow.....lots of suggestions here.....when playing yes he growls but it is a different growl, not the same as when he just starts to growl.....this growl is very low, deep and loud....he doesn't show teeth, has never tried to nip but it scares the hell out of me.....I can pet him and rub his chin when he does it but I am still weary of him when he is doing it.....his ears lay low and he wags his tail sometimes and sometimes it is down not moving.....I can ignore him when he does it, show him who is boss by speaking very loudly in a mean manner then he will come up right after being a suck.....then a short time later he does it again right out of the blue
Dogs bite and horses kick. If you mess with either long enough it's going to happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowwalker
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deerslayer99
This would really concern me. I would suggest getting professionally help...John Wade in London is good.
http://puppydogobediencetrainingwithjohnwade.ca/
http://www.askthedogguy.com/
And you have no idea what sets him off? If it is happening at random then Sharon has the answer: see a pro.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deerslayer99
Most animals at one point or another challenge their master. Usually I look at them and tell them to "give it up" Most times they do. I had a Llama challenge me a week ago. Teddy went to spit at me when I approached him. I shook my head and told him to "cut it out". He kept on gurgling, and turned his back to me. I kicked him and when he went to bite me, I smacked his nose. He stopped and turned around and put his head under my arm to apologize. I then took him for a walk. Same with horses and dogs, though I usually never hit them, its kind of useless when you think about it. I let Teddy know I was not happy and he stopped. Teddy is almost 350 lbs of really nasty stuff if he wants to be. He has killed 11 coyotes and 3 cougars, and chased off a few bears.
TRue , but if you read all the Op's posts, this is beyond that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackwolf
Next time your up let me see and hear this growl Rick . It's not hard to figger out what he is up to or isn't , and what it takes to fix, if it needs fixing at all . I've had everything from banty roosters ,to billy goats , to horses , including dogs try and pull rank at some time or another . A young pup like him is an easy tell what he is up too and easy to fix if like I said if it even needs fixing . For anyone to analyze it just by reading your posts is wrong . And yes dogs do use the pack mentality when dealing with humans and anybody saying they don't are rookies and have no idea of animal behaviour in general and how a pecking order exists ALWAYS .
TD
ROFL. Oh, jeez. Tears streaming down my face at that one.Quote:
Originally Posted by 400bigbear
You're saying that people who do nothing but study animal behaviour, day in and day out, for a living, are rookies with no idea of animal behaviour.
That's rich. If you can come up with this kind of stuff on the fly, you've missed your calling. You should be doing stand-up comedy.
Welsh, you really deny the pack relationship between dogs and humans?
That depends what is meant by "pack," but in a word, yes. Rather than clutter up this thread with the explanations, I'll put some thoughts together and start a new one.
I've been dealing with animals all my life Welsh and it's called EXPERIENCE not some THEORY you so like to quote from others . Yes much of my EXPERIENCE comes from doing it for a living unlike the pencil pushers you so much like to quote because you have zero EXPERIENCE yourself .Quote:
Originally Posted by welsh
TD
No ,please don't make us groan through another one of your THEORIES where you quote some pencil pusher . It just means more BS .Quote:
Originally Posted by welsh
TD
I think the family becomes the pack once they leave the mother... And only one way to move up is to test members for weakness... But I am not a trainer... But have had dogs all my life... And have been tested.
Welsh you crack me up believing everything you read. The twenty plus years I had at least forty to sixty dogs go through my kennel possibly more and witnessed with my very own eyes the pack mentality. Late fall until the next spring i worked dogs day in and day out and kept journals of individual dogs . The spring i raised litters of pups that i studied very carefully and many were shipped to other working kennels all over the world. I am one of those people you speak of and many others I worked closely and sharing experiences. I didn't do this to be paid i did this because of the passion i had and interest of animal behaviour of my chosen breed the Siberian Husky. I had three distinct working bloodlines in my kennel all three displaying remarkable work ethic. The last bloodline that I brought in about five years before i retired showed a very wolf like behaviour. It was very interesting and at times became difficult to deal with. Even one particular female out of that bloodline while giving birth to pups would squat in the same manner as a wolf delivering her young . I studied this behaviour not by reading a book or watching it on TV but by being fortunate to live a life most people may never experience. Not every breed behaves the same way as your spaniels or even a primitive breed such as a Canadian Inuit dog. Get yourself a load of dogs and study them for the next twenty years and get back to all of us with your findings.Quote:
Originally Posted by welsh
So have I. The fact that I am flexible enough to accept new ideas doesn't mean I have no experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by 400bigbear
Actually, I don't believe everything I read. And I change my mind when I run across more compelling evidence. For example, I changed my mind on this very subject.Quote:
Originally Posted by yellow dog
I don't doubt that you would see pack behaviour among groups of dogs, and I don't doubt that you would see more wolf-like behaviour among some groups of huskies. None of that has any bearing on the real question here.Quote:
Originally Posted by yellow dog
By the way, if you intend to trial or test your spaniel in this province, you're going to meet me in person and have a face-to-face conversation. You might want to bear that in mind when you tell me how funny you find me.
so are you saying that you will judge this mans dog differently because he finds your theory funny?... That's not right.Quote:
Originally Posted by welsh
I don't judge, so no.Quote:
Originally Posted by grizzlygreig
I am just saying that we are going to end up meeting, so we shouldn't be any ruder here than we absolutely need to be. I am sure YD and I will have some good conversations in the real world, which is often a better place to talk about things like this. "That's wrong" offends people a lot more when it's put in writing and posted in public.
Incidentally, this isn't my theory. It is the accepted scientific understanding of human-dog social relationships. The dominance theory was the accepted theory about 20 years ago. When people crap all over me they are really just shooting the messenger.
It has nothing to do with being flexible Welsh but why would I look at something different when my lifetime of experience has a proven track record . I would laugh at you anywhere, anytime too . LOL
BTW . All animals have a pecking order with each other of the same species or interaction with other species if they live together . BW even gave you a realistic and prime example of this when his lhama got cubby . They test you at times . If they one up you your done for especially with an animal the size of a horse . He couldn't out muscle his lama but that little cuff at the head brought the animal to attention . BW established his dominance and that he's boss and top of the pecking order .In his case this would be herd behaviour . Dogs are the same only pack behaviour . In the end though its relative . If I stand over my dogs dish , it's mine . That is me letting him know I'm the alpha and he only eats after me or when I say or move away . That's pack behavior .
TD
Pack mentality and standing pretty well affects most living creatures including humans.
I think what is really pertinent in any discussion is your personal background experience with dogs as in what kind, pet only, competition, hunting only....whatever.
YD has been clear with his background with sled dogs. His comments can be put in context with the very nature of that sport,their breeding and the specific training .
I'm not sure about the rest of the regular folks who comment. Maybe you compete, maybe you don't. Maybe you breed, maybe you don't etc etc.
I honestly can not attribute a lot of reliability in some comments when you know nothing about where an individual developed his view from.....just a personal view or experiential time over many years. I also believe unless you are in a competitive environment you more than likely are missing more than you know.
I am stating the above as I believe this is why some conflict arises regarding certain discussions like the current one.
Perhaps individuals need to state their experience base and experience in what context because I sure wouldn't attribute much credit unless I had more knowledge about where the opinion is coming from.
Gentlemen : differences of opinion need to be started in a new thread. They are of little help to the original OP. This isn't the off topic section. :)
Sharon, I posted the above to actually help the OP get a handle about where advice may be coming from whether it's a newbie to dogs trying to sort through training his first dog or someone who has been on the planet for a half century or so. And in that time has ventured into the competitive arena in some aspect.
BB just replied to give some background as well.
I think one would answer the OP's question differently depending on whether his experience was more with the pack environment as in sled dogs, foxhounds etc or more solitary training as in retrievers as an example. I mentioned earlier about a 'gem' in one of Welch's post around indirect pressure. I see no one else picked up on that which tells me more than likely it is not well understood as a teaching tool to deal with many displayed behaviours. It is powerful and is quite contrary to several direct pressure alternatives to this situation.
In the end I believe there are certainly various alternatives for the OP depending on the individual's understanding around learning theory of dogs and his(her) ability to carry it out especially in regard to the timing in a given approach.
- The fact that an animal bites, or growls, or barks, or crowds you, does not mean it is trying to establish a position in a pecking order; it is simply doing something undesirable.
- The fact that you correct an undesirable behaviour, by whatever means, does not mean that you have established a position in a pecking order; you have simply punished undesirable behaviour.
- The suggestion that the pecking order concept does not apply and is unhelpful does not mean you don't correct problems. Obviously, you must: train the dog in front of you.
- The suggestion that there is no pack relationship, as people conventionally understand it, does not meant that the relationship between dog and handler is not fundamental to everything you do. It is.
This is not a problem specific to hunting dogs and I think YD's experience is as applicable as anyone's; I disagree with him for reasons already explained. As for me, I think it is known around here that my current dog is my first hunting dog, but I have had dogs for 20 years. No, I didn't just fall off the turnip truck. I have had my share of dogs, made my share of mistakes, and learned from them. But I am getting tired of being used as a punching bag by one particular member, on just about every thread.
Returning to the OP, as I said before my answer is "get help." The fact that the dog's behaviour seems to be entirely random suggests either that something is quite wrong, or that the OP is simply not able to read the situation. Either way, the best thing to do is to get someone else to look at things. We all benefit from the advice and experience of others.
Kraka I picked up on it and I am sure many others as well but i was hoping you would elaborate. I waited and waited........so i got up grabbed a coffee came back and still no explanation to the little gem. I really wanted to know your experience with this. I noticed at the bottom of this thread you were reading but still made no comments. Please jump in and make your comments known before the thread goes completely sour. Also good morning.Quote:
Originally Posted by krakadawn
Sorry YD, I was out airing dogs this mild and muggy Ga morning.
Since we don't have first hand knowledge of exactly what this behaviour really looks like I would reticent to describe an approach and cause another issue for the OP. No question that the understanding of pack mentality can lead to solutions. Usually a human response comes in the form of direct pressure. Direct pressure has been used for many year teaching skill acquisition and more so in trying to eliminate a negative behaviour.
Here's an example:
I'm trying to teach a dog to angle into the water running a tight line down the shore. Most dogs either run the shore or square the entry and go into the water. Direct pressure is to punish the dog when he makes the mistake, haul him in and try again, most likely he won't understand and will repeat the same mistake only to receive direct pressure again in the form of punishment....sometimes a long process as the dog cannot relate the punishment to the behaviour the handler wants.
Using indirect pressure the dog would be whistle sat and given a cast into the water. Likely dog will still make the mistake so whistle sit, command here and nick on the sit. The dog understands what the nick is for and tries to be more compliant for the command. Here the punishment is for a known command(sit) but carries over for the other action.(and this is the case for the OP)
So back to the OP's question...I would teach solid basics...we all know these. I would use the collar to reinforce taught commands(not to teach).In a growling situation you might 'roll ' him if your timing is good because if it isn't then you used direct pressure and dog does not understand leading to another problem. Indirect pressure would be to stand up , heal dog and nick on sit command. The power of indirect pressure is immense with training retrievers in refining performance of high level skills.
I'm sure people have used this in their training but may not have referenced it in these terms....I'll bet you've used this technique also.
With respect to basic problem behaviour in dogs -- guarding "their" things, etc. -- there are well established indirect approaches that are used by various trainers whether they subscribe to dominance theory or not.
You make the dog wait to go out the front door. You don't let him go up the stairs until you do. You make him sit and wait for his food. You make him sit before you pet him. Etc. Etc. By doing these things you fix problems in the relationship with the dog without having to confront aggressive behaviour directly and possibly provoke escalating aggression.
Responding to some unwanted behaviour by immediately putting the dog on command and making him sit for you, rather than rolling him, is another example. I like doggy pushups: sit - lie down - sit - lie down - sit - lie down - sit. Do you remember who I am now, private?
I get a bit confused with indirect pressure and direct pressure Krakadawn but understand the concept because I have used both just depending on the situation . Actually I think I always have just not realizing it enough to explain it because correction to me is always correction .
Back to basics I have always done if that's what it takes to clean a dog up . When I started many years ago with my labs we didn't have the option of an e-collar . I don't have alot of experience with one although just knowing and understanding behaviour could add it to my arsenal . I do believe they are a bad tool in the wrong hands though .
Here is one of my own scenarios that I had issues with my lab till the last year she hunted and am looking forward to how you would have dealt with it and do you consider it direct or indirect pressure . Misty had an issue every year on opening day to break to the first shot and fall of the bird . I always worked her before the day and she was steady as a rock just not then or after if I didn't use the correction . I would tie her to something solid and like always she would bust but when she would hit the end of the anchored rope at full tilt she would flip herself at times . After that bust she would be steady for the rest of the year and at most require just a word or low pop on the whistle if she got ansy . . How would you have handled that Krakadawn and do you consider this direct or indirect pressure ?
TD
OK , now were getting somewhere . Your right , its not about always going into attack mode as a handler just to impose dominance because that can escalate on both sides . I find it's more about reading and understanding the body language and to diffuse it before it even occurs . Sometimes it just takes a firm voice , sometimes firm voice and slight tap to make the dog snap out of it . Actually this works best more often than not . Even stare downs work in the correct time and place . Then again if under a direct attack the flip and pin till they calm down is, also correct . Like as has been mentioned its understanding the type of aggression and why that needs to be addressed . The biggest thing to do though is get control . I think an actual direct unprovoked attack from a pup is a rarity, and if it happens your options are limited .Quote:
Originally Posted by welsh
TD
Humans have smarts (are smarter than dogs, at least most are) meaning, we should be able to use our brains instead of physically having to dominate a dog to train it. Unbalanced dogs that are not well bred are a different story however. Sometimes wires get crossed in which case an expert is needed.
Not Kraka but crackerd here, 400BB - surely, you remember from retriever field trials the old adage that there are two kinds of dogs, them that break and them that are going to break... (Wait a minute, how long since y'all have had fliers in trials up there? - maybe breaking isn't an issue in Canadian FTs...)Quote:
Originally Posted by 400bigbear
The "shock" tether you used in the duck blind is pretty d*mned effective, regardless whether you call it direct or indirect pressure. But effective and safe - as in a dog maybe breaking its neck by going lickety-split for a fallen duck - are two different things. Believe I would've put it down to the simple fact that dogs err too, just like the rest of us, and might have trained a little harder with or without the e-collar for steadiness in the blind the next time out.
Remember the whoa post that pointing dog trainers used, maybe still use? After I saw what it did to my dog the first time she "encountered" it, I said never again. Didn't you say you also had trained pointers? - bet you know what I'm referring to re the whoa post with the sudden jolt to the dog's spine and hips as it breaks on a bird. And the dog may be so birdy that the same thing would happen the next time and the next, and then you find you've got a dog that has no wheels left for the field if you ever were able to get it steady.
Anyhow, bottom line for me is the dominance or alpha roll is so yesterday's news with gundogs, especially retrievers. Yeah, 25 years ago before retriever training made the quantum leap, maybe. But never again if you've cultivated the respect from your dog by doing what Welsh has intimated above. Welsh, carry on with your line of thought; says here it's valid prep work for whatever advanced training someone sets out to impart to their dog.
Now Kraka's turn - if he can get his mind off...Golden retrievers!!!
MG
To anyone reading this post please don't confuse this reference to a whoa post with the whoa post I refer to in other threads. They are not the same thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by crackerd
As far as indirect pressure goes that is dog training 101 and can be incredibly effective. What welsh referred as far as who goes out the door first etc is correct and I don't have 8 month old pups growling at me because I put that in place the day they come home.
If it comes down to an actual attack, out of the blue, then you've already blown it as a trainer. Whatever the issue is should be corrected long before that point. And as Jakezilla just pointed out, an ounce of prevention ... if you maintain a good relationship with the dog then these issues shouldn't come up. That's why I asked how much training work the OP's dog is doing, right off the bat.Quote:
Originally Posted by 400bigbear
Jakezilla's absolutely correct - his whoa post is controlled by the handler. The older ones of the same name gave the dog enough proverbial rope to hang - or seriously hurt - itself. The slack rope was tied to a post and then the other end looped in a hitch around the dog's hindquarters. Then a bird usually a pigeon was placed just beyond the length of the rope. Next, the breaking or chasing dog was introduced into the equation...not pretty.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakezilla
Jakezilla's right - it's a different and unthreatening training apparatus altogether with humans having been introduced into the whoa post equation on the other end of the rope. The whoa post method he references is kinder and gentler, because it enables the handler to have kinder and gentler control of their training.
MG
LOL crackerd . No I don't train those crazy pointers beyond some basic obedience as a rule although I did straighten out my sis weimaraner . . I think this dominance /alpha theory gets confused maybe by how it is articulated . To me it means RESPECT and what I adhere too and follow . My dogs have always respected me but on occassion haven't other people just by little things they do or have done .Nothing serious such as a bite . To some it's ok but to me I have expectations after much time and effort for the dog to be obedient FIRST and above all .
I've come up with my own ways on how to handle some things and some of it relates to a book I read many,many years ago by James Lamb Free . I also don't ask for respect from my dog . I demand it , so maybe that's how I confused Welsh's post or I disagree with it if his opinion differs from that . Why do I demand RESPECT . ? Well for starters I have built trust up and that trust goes both ways to a certain degree but I'm always in charge .
I'm sure you ,jakezilla, krakadawn, etc know that feeling where you know exactly how a dog is going to react in a given situation just by watching body signs . I think it's something you either have or don't because it is a feeling and sense . I can't explain it but it's there . Just like with horses . I could be blindfolded and if a horse goes to step on my foot . my foot will move before it happens although I have been stepped on under a stress situation . LOL
Yeah I hear you about them Goldens . LOL I'm at the other end of the spectrum with this Springer . LOL Sometimes we think a change is good but take it from me it always isn't . LOL
And Jakezilla , I don't have 8 month old pups growling at me either .
TD
Your right Welsh . I've never had it come up with my dogs but I do know how I would deal with it from somebody elses dog placed with me to deal with the issue . Don't get defensive . This is not my first rodeo nor do I want you to cry with tears of laughter . I also opined and I want to see the OP's dog in action and will before I say what I think he should do as my first post in thread stated .Quote:
Originally Posted by welsh
TD
Rick,
I assume from your post that he's a male? This behavior seems out of the ordinary for a lab. Growing up the father of my best friend bred champion labs and I don't recall having seen that kind of behavior except for 1 that he had. You couldn't get anywhere near her when she had pups. The others you could and even handle the pups.
This seems more like the behavior you encounter with the guard dog breeds which are far more aggressive by nature. I had a few issues with my German shepherd when he was around that age. He was a male and wanted to be the alpha. I used to make him sit in the back seat of my truck. On 2 separate occasions he jumped into the front seat, then growled and snarled at me when I tried to get him back into the backseat. Each time I backhanded him in the side of the muzzle, not hard enough to hurt him, but enough to let him know that he wasn't going to get away with it. after the second incident, it never happened again. I used to work with him in a park across the road every night after work. I ended up with a 125 lb. German shepherd that could be walked off lead, controlled by voice command and was gentle around other people. My father had German shepherds when I was young and told me how to handle them. With guard dog breeds you have to show them whose boss at an early age or you won't be able to control them when they are fully grown.
I would expect this type of behaviour out of a German Shepherd, Doberman, Rottweiler etc., but not a lab. My buddy's father once told me he liked labs because they don't challenge you where as the guard dog breeds will. You may have to show him some tough love and by that I'm not advocating beating him as that only makes things worse. There are ways you can hit a dog without hurting it that will get their attention. The method I used was to place my left hand under his muzzle, raise his head until it was level with the ground, place the middle and forefinger of my right hand together and give him a sharp tap with my 2 fingers on the top of his muzzle. This doesn't hurt them, but they hate it worse than getting hit. We were shown this in obedience class.
Roe+
More old school myths.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roe+
Not from my experience!
Roe+
Well, the only dog I've ever been bitten by is a lab. Every dog even if of the same breed has it's own personality. My Dalmatian was the most challenging dog I've had.
True enough. One of the meanest dogs I've ever seen was a Springer Spaniel owned by the father of an old girlfriend. It even bit her mother at which point I would have put it down had it been mine. The only thing that Springer was terrified of was my ferret!Quote:
Originally Posted by last5oh_302
Roe+
Not that it matters, and this is more or less just a troll -- but, wow -- same here. The only dog I've ever been bitten by was a black lab, and the only dog I ever had trouble with aggression with was a dalmatian.Quote:
Originally Posted by last5oh_302
Somewhat back on topic; I recall posting something about this same issue with Misty when she was a bit younger, around 6mths old or something like that. She was growling at my wife, and the kids, and pushing her boundaries, etc. One forum member suggested privately that I may be the issue and was confusing her in the "pecking order", his suggestion was to show her no affection and ignore her for a few weeks. It worked, Misty still barks consistently at the mailman (go figure); but is never aggressive with anyone else, never growls, and never tries to assert dominance.
Don't know if that helps, but it worked for my situation. I also, don't believe in striking my animal physically, but she'll know by my attitude when I'm not happy with her, and she understands when she's done something wrong.
Question for the OP;
Where did you get the dog from Rick? If from a breeder, did you see the parents? Certain issues can be genetic in nature, not torule out breeding practices including dogs being too tightly bred.
Roe+
The Dalmatian went up on the list really fast for dog bites right after the 101 Dalmatians movie came out.Quote:
Originally Posted by jweese
I got my boy before the movie, luckily, and he never showed aggression towards me, but he didn't like my sister and my sister in law when they visited for some strange reason. He'd give them the look and the low rumbling growl. He also loved to get into a fight with other males if I gave him the chance. He was very much just "my" dog and he would only listen to me, so very much a one person dog, which I believe is very typical of the breed.
Oh, and it was a yellow lab that got me...lol
I absolutely believe you don't need to touch a dog to train it and gain "respect", and a strong bond.
Hey BB, sorry for delay, big water work for dogs yesterday meant for a late day.
People having been using the rope trick for a long time to stop a breaking dog in a blind. I have never used it. By the looks of some of our current outdoor shows they might consider using it before that poor chocolate gets shot by his own gunners. In any event your example is closer to direct pressure but not the way I would go considering dog safety etc. Tethering is one thing, tumbling another.
Many dogs break as you describe because the training does not mirror the hunting conditions and dogs know it. They will take the punishment to get the reward(bird). Better to up your training standards with live birds, use of blind etc to mimic the real day. Usually when you know what's going to happen, have your partner shoot and you be ready to correct.....better to forgo the first shot to get a correction. Even if prior to the first light you do some reminders. One of my hunting partners dog is similar and he's a little lazy so I remind him just prior to daylight to take the dog for a short walk. Purpose is to use indirect pressure on a known command....sit. So he walks the shore rehearsing sit a few times giving a nick at times. Dog comes back and remembers that she is indeed steady. Like all dog problems,, it's the handler. BB, I would suggest you start to look at Bill Hillman's stuff. He has several DVDs out now. Traffic COP is a great way to begin teaching basics to young dogs and teaching that has impact. My current 3 1/2 month lab is almost steady with daily drills, did the last guy ala Hillman as well and good thing a he's a fire breather.
Hey MG, you're right about the goldens, was a 22 min test for the labs but the 2 goldens took 28 minutes ,guess they have to have better memories!
This has been a better discussion .....now that I have internet back.
The OP also mentioned his pup sometimes growls while laying down with tail wagging, so it could be as innocent as a doggy purr. So again and as has been mentioned by many, it's impossible to tell without seeing it.Quote:
Originally Posted by welsh
I know Rotties have this trait (to purr when being petted) which is absolutely normal and NOT aggression at all. My last Rottie girl didn't pur, but again, if my next Rottie does I know it's not uncommon, and NOT aggression, hopefully...lol
Just wanted to touch on what Kraka said for the pointing dog guys.
When you go out hunting, how you start the hunt will set the tone for the hunt. If you arrive at your hunting spot and you let your dog out to run around and do this or that while you get ready you can't expect a polished performance from your dog in the field. When I am hunting and I arrive at my spot, I do whatever I need to into order to get ready. Once I am ready then I get my dog out and run through a few simple commands on a lead, heel, whoa etc. Then we move to the "line" and I have the dog stand still until I release the dog to hunt and I will probably turn the dog as well once it hits about 50 yds whether he needs to turn or not. After that we are hunting and that indirect pressure gets you inside the dogs head and if you have done the things right in the yard you will probably see a more responsive dog as well as crisper bird work in the field.
If it has been a particularly long trip and you feel you need to air your dog out as soon as you get there, let him out and then put the dog back in the truck until you are ready. Then take the dog out and run through a couple short drills before you start. Make this a habit and you will have a better time in the field. It doesn't have to be a long and drawn out process my routine only takes a couple minutes.
Set the tone of the hunt before you start and you will have a much more enjoyable hunt.
For those of you that plan to train on the woodcock when they come through, treat it like a hunt and go through the steps and get in the dogs head before you start. You will get much more accomplished that way.
Roe.....yes I did see the parents and they were as docile as can be.....just for the record, I am not training this dog to be in the field/ wish I could but not enough time to train him that vigorously so I have him doing your basic....sit/shake paw/waiting for my command to eat etc etc.....your basic house dog commands....he has it all down to a science for listening to me so I have no concerns there.....his growling has somewhat slowed down now but I can just about do anything to him while he is doing it but it is scary not knowing if he is going to strike me or not....I do know the difference between the playing growl and the out of the blue deep down growl.....it is even worse when u are around his food dish and crate so I scold him for doing it and take his food away until he comes up to me nicely...then he gets it back......a lot of good suggestions here but also a lot got side tracked with all the bickering amongst the ranks of you all...thanks for the responses people....appreciated greatly....hopefully I can get him to stop permanently soon....
Taking his food away is not going to make him appreciate you coming around his food any more than he does now, in fact you'll make him guard it more. Once again ,that's old school. Try dropping a treat in his bowl when you walk by instead and he'll learn that you coming around his bowl isn't such a bad thing.
not soQuote:
Originally Posted by last5oh_302
You have a lot to learn.Quote:
Originally Posted by last5oh_302
He is starting to take ownership of these things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deerslayer99
Deerslayer, all I can tell you is, try it. No harm no foul either way and you won't have to get into a wrestling match with your dog. Also try hand feeding him. Let him know that you're not a threat or someone that is going to bother him while he eats. A little hand feeding a dropping in treats as you walk by does work.
That could very possibly escalate the problem. This dog is starting to grow a pair and taking ownership of his food dish and his crate. He doesn't need pets and coddling or treats.Quote:
Originally Posted by last5oh_302
I really don't see a way that this display of food aggression would be escalated by what I suggested.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakezilla
Training to trade and drop things is all part of it.
What would you suggest?
If it was my dog, for starters I would probably wait until he was lying down somewhere. Then I would go stand next to him and work my way in crowding is space until he got up and moved. Then in about 5 minutes when he was comfortable somewhere else I would do it again. This is my house and if I want to be where you are you need to move. If the dog is lying in a doorway it needs to get out of the way when I am coming through. Never go around your dog, go through it. I am coming through clear a path. In this case the owner may need to get a foot under the dog and gently nudge it to get things moving.
This is similar to making sure you go through the door first. If that dog started to lean on me I would bump it away with my knee, he needs to respect my space. You never have to say a word to the dog or get rough with it, it's all about body language and personal space.
Do this kind of stuff properly and you should be able to take that food dish away whenever you want.
A good friend and very good trainer put it to me this way. "We need to mentor these young dogs and teach them how to be good citizens and we can't do that if we are their buddy. The buddy time comes later when they are older and they have earned it."
What does any of that do for food aggression? lol You "should" be able to take the food away? Talk about escalating the situation. Just sayin..Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakezilla
I've never let my dogs get to the point of showing food aggression, but when they already do it, there are better ways to deal with it than crowding their space thinking you'll be able to grab their bowl. That just sounds dangerous.
Thanks so much for this! A light went off over here! Makes so much sense. I will definitely try this with the Britt. Hopefully, it will help him get focused much sooner when it's time to hunt or train instead of thinking it's just playtime.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakezilla
It has everything to do with food aggression. It's all connected you just don't get it.Quote:
Originally Posted by last5oh_302
You can't train a dog over the internet but we do what we can. I would bet myself, BB, Kraka or crackered could go to this house and have this problem sorted in an afternoon and show the owner what he needs to do to keep the dog right.
You don't do those steps for a day and then dive for the bowl. It's a progression and the longer this behavior goes on the longer it will take to fix. I bet any decent trainer could have that bowl in an afternoon but that is because they have no history with the dog. The owner has a history and they need to overcome that to move forward.
What a dog is doing is what it is learning.
This pup is "doing" this aggressive behavior and it is in turn "learning" this behavior and it will more than likely escalate if it isn't taken care of. I would say that dropping treats rewards that behavior.
Disclaimer: Could this dog be having some other issue, sure. But 9 times out of 10 this crap is aggression based especially from a young male.
Well luckily we have someone here that does "get it". You've certainly changed my mind. What was I thinking?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakezilla
If I seem a little short with you it is because you reply so fast that I am sure you haven't taken the time to think about what I have proposed. You have already decided I am wrong. I am not explaining this for you it's for everyone else reading and if one person "gets it" and can use it successfully to make their life with their dog better it was worth my time.
And I hope nobody takes what you've said seriously. Works both ways, but you seem to be a legend in your own mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakezilla
We will just have to agree to disagree. I'm not a newbie to dogs and I've made mistakes in the past, but I'm always willing to learn new things, and adjust. Your ways are ancient. Just sayin...
Wait a minute buddy...many people on this forum could solve this issue that are just a qualified or have more experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakezilla
I have to say that any of what Jake has suggested seems to be pretty fair in my mind and is reasonable advice.
Last 5, I'm sure you have some dog experience as you say but not sure you've done field training to any degree in any venu. There are some folks here that have trained many dogs and in more than one sport. Not saying your ideas don't carry water but I read a fair bit of experience here. I believe if you really want to understand dog behaviour and learning traits then you need to get into some of these sports and train a dog beyond basic skills that most pet folk do.
I could show you some advanced training and the decision making required by dogs that might shock you, you would not think they are capable of those decisions especially in problem solving certain tests, We are way beyond regular hunting when we discuss these.
I still believe rather than argue.....state your best case. I train with some of the best trainers one can find and we are certainly not identical although very similar in approach.
Krakadawn, as the OP mentioned he's not looking at field training. This is about basic training, since you seem to keep refering to field training and hunting. I stand by my suggestions 100% and when I do professional training I'm sure they will tell me this is the proper way to deal with a food aggressive dog.
This sounds like dominance not aggression so much. Even though your not planning on doing field with your dog it still needs lots of exercise. Teaching him/her to retrieve is a good way to get a good work out in a short time. Obedience is always #1 and yes the dog needs to move when you are coming through, leave the dog food if you ask them to and no you don't take it until they back away.
deb
Well Rick,
I wish you well if you are entering the world of being a professional dog trainer. Yes I refer to FT competition but I have to tell you 'basics' are basics regardless of where you wish to take the dog....good pet/companion, field trial or hunting dog. I'm somewhat surprised with your statement, I would have thought you would have understood that.
I could give you a flow chart with the basics that lead to retriever training. I'm sure you would agree with concepts like sit, stay come(here), down, quiet, heel etc. Not only are these mandatory to be a good companion but for dog safety as well. Are these not the basics that you would pursue???
The huge difference that you will come to see when you gain some experience is that field trainers develop these skills not only earlier but to a higher standard than regular pet owners and to a higher degree of dependability..
Where are you learning or hope to learn these skills?
Not trying to be confrontational but I believe you have not successfully argued your points and have not stated the background/experience to illustrate your view.
It's all good Kraka :)Quote:
Originally Posted by krakadawn
I have a couple of friends that rescue/foster Rotties, and unfortunately these shelter dogs usually come with excess baggage, and food aggression seems to be a very common problem. These dogs have rarely been socialized properly. The hand feeding and treat dropping always works. Sometimes it takes a little patience, but the outcome is amazing. Going from a dog that wants to rip you apart to being able to pet and put hand in bowl is like a miracle has happened. Some of the things suggested here (dominating, alpha roll, etc) if used when dealing with a food aggressive dog (especially a Rott) can get you hurt, bad. It's a positive method that builds trust, and it works. The dog does NOT look at it as a reward for guarding. The dog associates you coming to the bowl as a good thing. Eventually you should be able to put your hand in the bowl (although never recommended, never bother the dog when it's eating as they say), which I do, and feed them by hand. The treats are even better as a starter because they love treats. Everytime you approach that bowl they figure out something good (even better than their food) is coming.
When I start my professional training it will be with Pertsmart...lol...ok No, I'll be signing up with the Hamilton Dog Obedience Club. My plans are to at least get her CGN, and I may even go into rally obedience, but she will mainly be a companion dog. The program is based on positive reinforcement, so it will be interesting to see and learn.
Rick,
We are talking about an 8 month old pup and trying to nip this in the bud. The advice I posted is what I do with my dogs and why I don't have pups growling at me. If we were talking about rescued Rotties the approach would be totally different and not something for internet discussion.
If anyone else thinks I am wrong don't listen but it works. Is it the only way, no, but it is a way.
The huge difference that you will come to see when you gain some experience is that field trainers develop these skills not only earlier but to a higher standard than regular pet owners and to a higher degree of dependability..
Well...that would depend on what you know about other forms of professional dog training to be fair. If you are comparing to professional guard dog training such as Schutzhund then field trainers dogs would be less dependable or fall short. I personally know a family that is fourth generation Schutzhund trainers and authors of a few books. I have seen the amount of training that goes into one of these animals and i am blown away at the end result. These dogs are completely in tune with their trainer and making a mistake is not acceptable. All forms of dog training need to develop a higher standard of dependability but some such as Shutzhund in my view be the highest.
It works the same way with a pup Jake, although much faster since it's a much milder case. You'll be able to walk up to the bowl and pick it up, put it down, whatever you want and it's so easy on both the trainer and dog, and I believe creates a stronger bond..Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakezilla
By coincidence, I found a page on food aggression a couple of days ago via Twitter. I alluded to it in an earlier post. This is from a Boston rescue group that has worked on retraining food-aggressive dogs, because these dogs are often put down in shelters. I haven't had to deal with the problem myself, so I claim no expertise here. But the people who put this together have lots of experience with this problem.
Their program doesn't have a timetable. There are essentially four points when dealing with mild food aggression (dog shows teeth or growls when eating, but does not try to bite):
- Avoidance: no one approaches the dog when it is eating or in other situations that may provoke the behaviour.
- Say Please: at all times, the dog is made to sit before being petted, leashed, walked, let out of kennel, etc.
- Dog is always fed when people are present, but not close enough to provoke it.
- Retrieve training: playing fetch. The dog is not expected to retrieve to hand and the dummy is never taken from the dog. They wait for him to drop it. (Obvious problem for trained retrievers.)
The full page is here:
http://centerforshelterdogs.org/Home...ggression.aspx
Note that nobody goes up to the dog for any reason while it is eating. Nothing to provoke a reaction that could escalate and make things worse; nothing that could inadvertently reward inappropriate behaviour. The idea is to get the dog to understand that he can give things up (retrieve training) and that he doesn't have to protect his food (point 3).
I'd expect that trained retrievers, who are continually giving up highly desirable birds to their handlers, never have this problem. For obvious reasons it would be a serious problem in a bird dog or retriever.
Whatever you want. Like Kraka pointed to, this stuff is pretty basic for field guys competing at high levels. If YD wants to talk about how awesome the shutzhund guys are that's fine too. I pay attention to my dogs and their performance tells me whether I am doing it right or not. If they aren't right at home they won't be right in the field.Quote:
Originally Posted by last5oh_302
YD...don't sell field trainers too short, remember you've yet to join the ranks of FT trainers. As I always point out, dogs competing at the all age level are truly gifted animals and yes competition at this level demands a close rapport and working relationship along with a thorough understanding in communication.
However, your example is valid and I consider those dogs as ';field dogs' just because of the training as opposed to the pet genre. By the way we could discuss bomb dogs that the US forces are training. Where do they get most of them....field trial washouts. Where have a number of their trainers come from......field trial trainers. I know several personally.
Yes that is correct I know of a few of Springville Springers that have also gone onto being sniffer dogs etc. I also know of a couple of dog mushers in the states that retired and went onto field trialing.Quote:
Originally Posted by krakadawn
Yup that would be the same for other forms of dog training.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakezilla
.................Quote:
Originally Posted by welsh
That's very nicely put together.
You know I like JRTs , but they are exceptionally orientated to " What is mine is mine; what is yours is mine." :)
We have an understanding so he doesn't push me around , but he will be very aggressive with the other dogs. If they wander near HIS STUFF , all hell can break out. I don't like this as one setter is 13 years old.
1/ There is a time for this, but I rarely take that approach. I do supervise feeding times . If he tries to take over the other dogs' bowls, he is out of there. No more problems with this now.
2/ This I do with him at all times.
5/ Sometimes I hold him and let the other dogs play with his stuff - saying silently that "I will decide what you get you little buggar." - words not needed, dogs pick up cues quicker than words.
6/ Sometimes I take the fought - over- item and give it to the loser, saying ................
This approach is doing the job. Just saying I guess there are no " only this way" methods.
* Did I say he weighed 15 pounds. :)
I agree, it is basic, and just because you're set in your old ways, and Caesar Milan is your hero, and field trial trainers like you are training GODS, it still doesn't mean you're doing it the best way. Things change but it's always tough to change the old school mentality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakezilla
Actually the 'Old School Mentality' has changed immensely in this particular sport .We have come light years in training techniques and sequencing particular sub skills. Results are readily apparent, learning more effective and since now this stuff is in printed and video form(something we never had), it's available to people in general. The old way would have been transferred by word of mouth or mentoring.
Rex Carr is responsible for the change and implementation of the e collar which has changed training .
By the way I don't think field trial trainers are 'gods' at all. They however, have been walking the walk and have an experiental base that is fairly broad in nature. Try training a 7 week old puppy for 8-10 yrs, competing and hunting over them only to start over once again will yield that kind of experience which is real and tangible.
Last5oh_302 if you think jakezilla's methods are "old school" you have no idea what real old school was like. If you haven't seen it in action or seen the finished product who are you to judge?
Here come the boys.
Yeah trky you're right. I just don't get it.
I've received several pm's because of this thread, and all in relation to old school dominance, and how they're tired of seeing people using it or pumping it as the end all be all way to "be on top" with your dog. That says something doesn't it? I mean there are people that disagree with with your alpha roll theories and are willing to learn, and realize that "yeah, this dominance crap is just that, crap" at least, but perhaps aren't comfortable enough to come on here to challenge the big bad expert field trainers.
I am not the be all end of of dog trainers and I do not know everything but the majority of problems on this site are pretty easy fixes.Quote:
Originally Posted by last5oh_302
The more experienced trainers and dog people on here aren't here to learn how to train dogs. We are here to help and pass on some hard won knowledge, some of them are just a little more PC at it than myself.
For people that know what they are doing there is an incredible amount of BS on the internet about dog training. I am just trying to help people stay on the right path with their bird dogs.
If the OP doesn't get a handle on things he could very well find himself in a KennyT situation with an out of control dog. If KennyT is reading this I hope he doesn't take it the wrong way but everything I read tells me that there is nothing wrong with that dog and it is an owner/handler issue. I have experience with DD's and I think KennyT just got in over his head and if I wasn't on the other side of the planet right now I would go to his place and take a stab at helping him out with this dog.
If you think my way is wrong give a counter method written from you own experiences instead of a 2 sentence answer telling me how your buddy does it or something you googled.
Hang on Jake, you told me I don't get. What could I possibly prove to you then?
I already explained to you what works, and I haven't used internet articles or whatever you claim I have to back it up.
You then stated that you "might" try this, and maybe try that. You really have no idea. You took a stab at it, so why don't you prove it then?
I've personally never had to deal with a food aggressive dog, and obviously you haven't either, judging by your answer of what you'd "probably" do.
Rick,
To be clear, not everyone believes in the dominance/roll'em theory. Some of us I believe are way beyond that in training strategies and the way I trained in the 70's is not the way I train today.
I really take exception to you referencing field trainers the way you do. You may disagree...that's fine...but then state your position and then back it up with your background/knowledge/experience.......something......you can't just make statements and expect no one to question you. For sure there are a number of trainers here that I don't always agree with but I know from their comments that they indeed have experience.
I won't be sarcastic or disrespecting but I will challenge when I see a shallowness or lacking in substance type comments when there are other reasonable alternatives being suggested by others.....you like chocolate....I like vanilla...but I've got a lot of years of vanilla so you better substantiate your responses.
Perhaps you are very effective....I don't know that...certainly not from your posts or sarcasm.
The mights, try's and probably's are butt covering measures because I am trying to explain something over the internet that really needs to happen in person. If I was there, I would work through those suggestions while reading the dog and adjust accordingly with an extremely high probability of success. This is an impressionable 8 month old puppy not some abused rescue that wants to eat me. This is well within my skill set and many other experienced people on this site.