Here's an update from the local online rag. http://www.sootoday.com/content/news...ls.asp?c=70666
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Here's an update from the local online rag. http://www.sootoday.com/content/news...ls.asp?c=70666
That's hopefully good news for the dogs. Sounds like they have good temperaments so adopting them off shouldn't be a problem. Beautiful looking dogs.
No they won't be adopted. They are going to be put down.
Why? Because they supposedly attacked wildlife? They aren't people aggressive and they just did what normal dogs do that are left alone to run free. They do have to eat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Guelph1981
And you've got an inside connection to this info do you? As Last5oh say's, they aren't aggressive to people, they were just doing what any dog would do if free running in the wild. Adopt them out to a responsible home and good to go!Quote:
Originally Posted by Guelph1981
They will likely get the needle.
Again, the MNR doesn't actually have any authority to put dogs down after the fact. These dogs can be adopted.
The humane society have said that aren't in very good shape and with the history with these dogs and the age and size I think they get the needle unfortunately thats the way life goes.
That's what happens when they starve. What history? That they supposedly attacked deer? How old are they? Size?Quote:
Originally Posted by trkyhntr21
I'm not seeing any reason to euthanize here.
There are two witnesses from the incident as stated in the article.
The dogs are full grown large breed dogs which are harder to adopt out without the history of these dog's.
If they do adopt these dogs out and something happens later on ie a person being bit or another dog etc. It could make its way back to the humane society and since it's a news story it's common knowledge
The statement as to the condition of the dogs could be an opening for a statement later that the dogs were to far gone and had to be euthanized. And ultimately covering there behind from possibly being sued later.
Well based on that reasoning all dogs should be euthanized then. Some even chase squirrels and have other dog aggression!
Based on what info there is these dogs sound perfectly adoptable.
Just stating my opinion agree or not it's your choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by last5oh_302
Maybe you can adopt the two dogs and save yourself from spending all that money on that pup your getting and give them a good home its a win win. :)
No way, they're too vicious!:pQuote:
Originally Posted by trkyhntr21
I've done the adoption route and my money is already down on this pup, if I ever get it.
So the argument for the coyote hunt is that they are hurting the deer yet feral dogs get a bye don't see the logic.Quote:
Originally Posted by last5oh_302
You don't see the difference between coyotes and domestic dogs with collars?Quote:
Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers
Sorry, can't help ya there.
Nobody here is saying they are happy about these two dogs being destroyed but unless the owners man up and pay the fines then these dogs will be put down. Animal shelters have limited space and funding. They only feed those that are most likely to be adopted. These two deer killers aren't what most people look for in a pet.
With the limited resources available to the MNR the most cost effective method to deal with this problem is to put these feral dogs down. Now if there are some bleeding hearts out there I encourage you to get them and on your dime rehab and rehome them.
Well if the MNR had caught them in the act of killing a deer then I guess they would've been fair game. That however isn't the case.
Enough that they where at large harassing wildlife. Got too treat them as an invasive species. Don't think feral dogs are under the protection of being innocent till proven guilty beyond all reasonable doubt.
What's the basis for that?Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
If the owners are identified then the dogs, which are their property, will have to be returned unless they can be confiscated on the basis of neglect or cruelty, under the SPCA's authority. There is no authority in the FWCA AFAIK to confiscate a dog or put it down. Where it says in the article that the dogs' future depends on the MNR, that's because the dogs are part of an investigation and the MNR wants to find the owners. The owners will have to pay any fines, regardless; the dogs' future does not depend on their ability or willingness to pay.
If the owners are not identified, the dogs can be put up for adoption, unless (as trkyhntr21 points out) they are not adoptable.
These dogs are not in the care of the MNR, and MNR resources have nothing to do with it. They are in the care of the local Humane Society.Quote:
Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers
No there is no arguement about hunting coyotes, here in ontario they are furbearing animals and hunted as suchQuote:
Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers
Do you think the animal shelter will just hand over these dogs for free? If an owner shows up to claim them before the time allowed before destruction they will fine them no doubt. They may even spay/nueter them and hand the owner the bill. My guess is nobody claims them and when the media moves on they get the blue juice. No doubt you will now go and google stats on animal shelter's policies and amaze us with your ultimate knowledge of municipal bylaws regarding dogs brought in by the MNR.........:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by welsh
Putting down these dogs for running deer or even killing a deer to eat would almost be as daft as saying all hunting dogs should be put down.These two dogs did what comes natural to them if hungry THEY HUNT.Period.
The owners I would suspect will not come forward and they will have to be Hunted down.They should then be fined.
Hopefully the dogs get adopted and I am sure they will.The Humane Society look towards the best interest of the dogs and just because the dogs hunted to stay alive does not make them untrainable killers.All the dogs need are good responsible owners.
I am surprised the dogs survived very long with a large wolf pack near by. That may mean they had at least a place to go at night that afford them protection from weather and maybe the pack.
Do you really think resources will be used up to track down the owners of 2 stray dogs? Wether they are "good dogs" or wild killers doesn't change much. They enter the shelter and the clock starts ticking. When the amount of days expires they get put down like every other unclaimed or unadopted dog. Sad but many things in life are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
Ah, I see. Whatever fees are imposed by the SPCA ... although as I said, the SPCA has to hand the dogs over unless they can make some case for neglect.Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
Yes I do think that resources will be used to track down the owners of the abandoned dogs.One was wearing a collar and both dogs are easy to describe.All it takes is a couple of public service announcements and you can identify the owners.This case has garneredQuote:
Originally Posted by terrym
public attention,therefore its on the radar of the MNR,the Press,and dog/animal lovers.
Being an optimist I will predict this story will have a happy ending for these dogs and kind hearted dog lovers will give them a home.
The MNR wants to find the owners. So yes, I would think that resources will be used to track them down.
The SPCA will hand over the dogs with a fee, but those dogs are spuetered, micro chipped, and temperament tested. They also come with pet insurance, and it's a lot cheaper than someone could pay doing the speuter themself.
I hope you are both right.
Jolanta Kowalski really goofed when she came out with the comments about the MNR "dispatching" the dogs. Whether she was correct or not, it was the callous way she stated it. It raised a lot of hackles and the fact that her boss, David Orazietti MPP for the Sault and Minister of Natural Resources lives here probably had something to do with this turn of events.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
MNR media people don't goof. These days they aren't allowed even to sneeze without approval from Queens Park. The last time I had to get answers from MNR on a story it took about three weeks for them to answer about five questions. I know of someone else who asked MNR a question about hibernation in bears (forget exactly what) and had to wait weeks for the Queens-Park-approved answer, a if the biology of bears is some kind of political hot potato.
You can bet Kowalski wasn't speaking off the cuff. Probably the goal was to get people to understand that dogs chasing deer is a serious thing.
There was a situation about a week ago with dogs and deer . Initially I thought they were one and the same but this one happened in Kenora .
http://www.kenoradailyminerandnews.c...ogs-in-a-month
TD
I think Gov't media people goof all the time. They're only spewing info they get from so-called knowledgeable people. Case in point: 3 lynx shot on the outskirts of Timmins by Timmins police. Residents were quite upset over these cullings and started getting on MNR about trapping and relocating.
Yolanta says its not practical to live trap lynx because its too difficult.
So, 2 live trapped lynx later by the Timmins fur council now has MNR stumbling for the correct press release.
What I mean is not that they never make mistakes, but that they don't goof in the way that was implied: i.e. they don't say things off the cuff without checking with someone higher up.
Yeh she goofed up and I think she was trying to hard to explain to the public about the dire consequences of letting a dog run deer out of season.Right away she has a million dog lovers after her when in fact she should be targeting the so called owners of the dogs.She might also have been trying to expel any suggestions wolves were responsible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushmoose
[QUOTE=400bigbear;775832]There was a situation about a week ago with dogs and deer . Initially I thought they were one and the same but this one happened in Kenora .
http://www.kenoradailyminerandnews.c...ogs-in-a-month
Well this story is about stray dogs suspected to be off a local first nations reserve,the band Chief does not sound real concerned and puts the blame on band members,maybe,and townsfolk who drop off unwanted dogs in his area.If its to expensive to spay and neuter them and they are causing a problem,them they may need to cull them period.
They probably don't, and that certainly explains the cut n dried comments she spewed. She would or couldn't even realize what she was actually saying. She simply said verbatim what someone else above her told her to say? Makes for a great media relations person? "Don't speak or say anything until we tell you what to say" "say it exactly as we tell you to" "Don't think, just do what you're told". and on 'n' on 'n' on........Quote:
Originally Posted by welsh
No Welsh, she goofed for sure and her bosses are scrambling in damage control.
Geez, in my job, my boss tells me what needs to be done, and then it's up to me to get it done the best way possible without them micromanaging.
I could just hear Orazietti scrambling for the phone. "Dont' shoot those dogs!!! Whatever you do, don't shoot those dogs!!!" He is a liberal after all and needs to try and hold his riding? (sorry Gilroy, just had to say that :D) And he has family that lives directly in that same neighborhood as the incident took place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
As I said, it takes weeks to get responses to media questions out of MNR. Everything goes through Toronto. Nobody tells you anything off the cuff anymore. You can bet what she said was in line with a guideline. That's how they work these days.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushmoose
This is first-hand experience speaking.
Regardless of whether I agree with you on this or anything else I am impressed that someone with your police background is still an optimist. Good on you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilroy
I think it depends on your relationship with whoever you speaking to. I work regularly with the MOE and have a good working relationship with the staff at the local district office. You would not believe some of the unfiltered stuff I get told, but because I don't repeat it, they keep telling me stuff. Generally though I think you are correct and many/most questions get reviewed by supervisors and even counsel in Toronto if there is potential exposure and/or liability.Quote:
Originally Posted by welsh
I get unfiltered stuff, too. But that's off the record.
It's become a weird world. Ten years ago you could call anyone and get answers. Then they were told they weren't allowed to talk to the media without keeping a record of the conversation. And then they were told they weren't allowed to answer questions without getting approved answers from on high.
Again, my favourite example is the questions on bear hibernation that had to be passed through Toronto, as if the biology of the black bear is somehow a political liability.
Gag orders are protection to both the employee and the employer. NO employee should be speaking on operations without permission from his supervisor, to often a personal prospective are given as gospel. Allot of front line workers aren't knowledgeable enough speak on behalf of their employer.
In some organizations it takes lawyers to vet all questions/new releases to avoid litigation or unwanted media scrutiny.
It is a well known fact that MNR will shoot a dog(s) running dear out of season. Unfortunately IMHO I think if this did not hit the media these dogs would have been put down already.
I know my dog is only a Lab. I know he will run a deer and is very good at finding them. He has never been trained to find deer and he also does not come out for the deer season. When I have him in the bush he has his orange collar on plus he e collar just as a precaution that I am not able to heal him in.
I have always been told as a kid that "if our (your) dog takes off after deer, don't expect him to come back".
I do not like the idea at dogs being shot at that are running deer. You also have to look at the other side of the picture. Our Deer population has enough predators on its heals. Just look at the amount of yotes in Ontario now. I know for a fact that last year was the most dog track(wolf/yote) I have seen in a deer season. These tracks were right on ours from the day before. We had a few come right into camp and drag our moose hides back into the bush at night.
I know I will catch flak for this, seems every thread in here is an argument. I am just trying to paint the other side of the picture for you guys/gals.
I have Rhodesian Ridgebacks. They were bred to run game -- all day if necessary. I was told " if you can't recall and there aren't 8 foot fences, use a leash or check cord or say goodbye". 30 foot check cord for me and never loose.Quote:
Originally Posted by krismerry
Having said that, if tracking wounded game they are single minded. They'll acknowledge other then go right back to track
I agree that dogs do chase game and even cars but sometimes they get killed chasing cars and if a pet dog runs after a deer for a short run that's ok with me but once a dogs learns to chase a deer to kill it then what? Yes I know we can break him of that habit in a warm loving home.
Over my life time I have seen a lot of times when dogs chased and killed deer - the one memorable time was when I was driving up a highway which had a real high bank on my side of the road - two dogs had been chasing this deer and it got to the high bank - it leaped off the bank and landed on the road right in front of me - it broke both front legs and layed in the road - I stopped the car and got out - two dogs came down the bank and started chewing on the deer - one was a shepard looking dog and the other a big hound like dog - I chaed the dogs away - since I had to get to work I had to leave - another time I was ice fishing and up the lake I saw a deer come running out onto the ice - three dogs were chasing it - the deer couldn't run on the ice and fell breaking its pelvic bone - it lay spread eagle on the ice and the dogs attacked it - I ran out to there this was going on and chased the dogs - it was too late for the deer - it was pretty well chewed up - so I shot it - a lot of people let their dogs out and have no idea what their dog is chasing deer -
That's right Joe. As always it's people problems, not dog problems.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoePa
I didnt post this to stir the pot or troll the thread. Eating deer or no this is what happens to most stray dogs. You ever been inside a humane society? Not exactly warm and fuzzy type of place. I wasnt saying these dogs deserve to die for fending for themselves. If there was no media attention and they just rounded up a couple stray dogs they would do their time and then be put down. I think its sad that some people can be so irresponsible when it comes to animal ownership. It is only these innocent animals that end up paying the price for their owners stupidity. I really hope they track the owner(s) of these dogs and really stick it to them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Guelph1981
At one time Around this area dogs chasing deer used to be a big problem , this was back when nearly every farm had a family on it and everyone had a dog or two , most were mutts , collie , shepherd , hound type stuff , the common response to dogs chasing game or livestock was the owners got a call or two saying look your dogs are running ,if it wasn't resolved , the dogs just didn't come home one day , nowadays there are more dogs in town then in the country around here due to the demise of the small family farm and the change to big operations so much less in the way of dog issues but I know for a fact things are still handled the same way as they used to be your dog causes continued problems running stuff and it won't come home , in the past 2 years my municipality has payed two claims for livestock kills and both were dogs , we haven't paid for a coyote claim in around 10 years here
First and foremost I am a dog lover. It is never a good thing to see a dog have to be put down. Having said that I remember growing up in the Niagara Region in the 70s when there was more farmland. At the time there was a fairly common issue with dogs forming packs and hunting just about everything. At this point the dogs had become feral and there was really no good way to domesticate them afterward.
The sad part is that it really comes back to 'bad dog owners' and not bad dogs. It is all well and fine for the bleeding hearts to cry about the dogs but their focus should be on finding the owners and dealing with them. In the final outcome it is IMO a better and more humane solution to dispatch them.
It is not just a matter of dogs killing deer. The thing is, the winter is already tough on deer and dogs will run them and use up their energy reserves so the deer later die thanks to weather, starvation, etc. So there is good reason for shooting dogs running deer. Meanwhile, a lot of people in the country still let their dogs run at large.
However....
I really don't think the media had as much to do with this as people think. The MNR is essentially limited to shooting dogs that are actually chasing deer; they can't shoot dogs simply because they're running at large (except in circumstances that don't apply here). So there's no reason to think they wouldn't ordinarily try solutions other than bullets.Quote:
Originally Posted by krismerry
Welsh,
I agree with you 100%. All I was saying with the media is. If nothing was brought to the them would "One of the dogs was taken in with the help of an area resident." this resident have helped? If not, would we be reading a different story? I would think. That is if it would even make the news. Just to clarify "Unfortunately IMHO I think if this did not hit the media these dogs would have been put down already." the words put down are in the wrong context. I should have said dispatched.
Yes lots of people would take in a dog off the street to look for its owner. My wife and I in the past 5 years have had 6 dogs in our backyard or garage, waiting for owners to come home. 5 have gone home to the owner, 1 has gone to animal control. Worst was a Beagle. It had some very nasty marks around his jaw almost like someone tied it up to keep quiet. My wife had called animal control as he seemed to be in bad shape. His muzzle was had fresh blood and it was just oozing. I was able to get him cleaned up before they arrived. Wish I could have kept him. He had a great sounding tongue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by welsh