Are our moose dwindling? David says so

Are our moose dwindling? David says so

Wednesday, April 16, 2014 by: SooToday.com Staff

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http://www.oodmag.com/userfiles/imag.../MNR_Badge.jpgNEWS RELEASE
MINISTRY OF NATURAL RESOURCES
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Aerial Surveys Show Declines in Northern Ontario
To ensure moose populations remain healthy and resilient, Ontario is reducing adult moose tags across the province by about 18 percent for 2014.
The reductions are in response to declining moose populations in northern Ontario, which were noted by provincial biologists during this winter's annual aerial surveys.
The largest tag reductions will occur in areas with the largest declines.
Ontario’s moose population has remained relatively stable over the past decade; however, most areas of northeastern Ontario and the more accessible parts of northwestern Ontario have recently been showing signs of decline.
Many factors can contribute to population shifts, such as harvest, predation, parasites, habitat condition and low calf numbers.
Ontario has been working with key stakeholders and the hunting community to respond to these changes and plans to seek public input this summer on next steps.
"Ontario and its partners have agreed that we must act now to secure the future of moose in this province. Moose are not only important to Ontario’s economy, particularly in northern communities, but they are also vital to our province’s biodiversity," says David Orazietti, minister of Natural Resources.
Ontario continues to set long-term population targets and look at how and when moose can be hunted in this province through its Moose Project.
For more information about the moose tags available in your area, see the 2014 Hunting Summary Regulations at ontario.ca/hunting.
Ontario's moose draw opens on April 22, 2014.
Read more about moose management in Ontario at ontario.ca/moose or Moose Survey Results by Region.

Does this mean they will drop the price of a license.

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Originally Posted by Gilroy

Does this mean they will drop the price of a license.

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BWAAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Couldn't care less what they want for tag's but got the answer I have been waiting for regarding moose group size's ….. OUCH!!

Of course.. Planning my first moose hunt..

WOW! Being going to zone 8 for years, this year only 12 tags.....This is what happens when governments have no idea as to how to run ministries, finances and bugets. Except feed at the trough for their on self righteousness.

Feel bad for the local business's and for those who count on meat in their freezers for the winter.

enough of this provincial government, they need to go NOW!!!!!

"E"

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/04/17/e8ymyvut.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/04/17/yjevupa6.jpg

Cutting tags won't do squat to help. There are lots of tagholders that don't fill their tags each year. Wolf and bear populations need to be decreased and the native hunt has to be better regulated. The finger of blame cant be pointed to any one problem.

Wow our area went from two too seven for a bull that is quite the jump

WMU 28 went from 457 adult tags to 30!

How many tags are allocated to tourism outfitters for NR clients?

I think a lot of people's plans just changed for the fall

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Originally Posted by topher

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/04/17/e8ymyvut.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/04/17/yjevupa6.jpg

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Can you post the link to those please

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Originally Posted by B Wilson

Can you post the link to those please

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http://www.mnr.gov.on.ca/en/Business...02_173985.html
Scroll down to moose.

Thank you very much

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Originally Posted by exgunner

I think a lot of people's plans just changed for the fall

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Yes mine did. Was thinking of heading back up to area 5 this fall but looks like the guaranteed group size is "none". It was 4 or 5 when we went there last.

It certainly sounds like the moose population is in trouble................... If I could I would close the season and make it illegal to take a moose by everyone (natives, outfitters and hunters) until I figured out exactly why the decline and I had a feasible plan to turn things around.

I know it would create a lot of political fall out and BS but as stewards of the land we don't have a choice....

Outfitters..........collect unemployment or find another way to make money, no job is guaranteed forever.....
Native Americans.....its the meat they need.....the government could pay for them to buy a few cows or pigs....
Hunters......report any suspicious activity to the OPP or MNR.....

Politicians.........spin this in a way to get votes and money for the MNR-(program)....

Something needs to be done in a way that will truly help the heard as it wasn't all that long ago that our moose population was in such great shape .................we traded moose for turkeys....

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Originally Posted by fratri

It certainly sounds like the moose population is in trouble................... If I could I would close the season and make it illegal to take a moose by everyone (natives, outfitters and hunters) until I figured out exactly why the decline and I had a feasible plan to turn things around.

I know it would create a lot of political fall out and BS but as stewards of the land we don't have a choice....

Outfitters..........collect unemployment or find another way to make money, no job is guaranteed forever.....
Native Americans.....its the meat they need.....the government could pay for them to buy a few cows or pigs....
Hunters......report any suspicious activity to the OPP or MNR.....

Politicians.........spin this in a way to get votes and money for the MNR-(program)....

Something needs to be done in a way that will truly help the heard as it wasn't all that long ago that our moose population was in such great shape .................we traded moose for turkeys....

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Well said. I'm in full agreement. The only thing I would add is get the spring bear hunt fully reinstated and thin the wolves in moose country too.

I wonder how many are dying due to parasites? I read that is one of the largest issues in some areas. Would have been nice if the MNR had given more info. Have you guy's who hunt Moose notice if the Moose are infested with ticks?

If the moose numbers are down why have they increased cow tags in some wmu !!!

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/thunde...tags-1.2612675

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Originally Posted by Bowhunter54

If the moose numbers are down why have they increased cow tags in some wmu !!!

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They are down regionally in some places. Shooting a cow moose in Muskoka isnt going to have any relevance at all on moose populations in Red Lake.

Every Moose hunter/group must do their own evaluations as to whether or not it's worth buying tags for the particular area they usually hunt. If we are going to "walk the talk" about being conservationists and maintaining sustainable harvest,there's no way we can continue to hunt areas where Moose populations are in serious decline and still maintain any credibility. OMNR stats appear to agree with other provincial studies/stats from across Canada and,so far,aren't in dispute,therefore,we have no choice but to accept them at face value. We may need to radically alter our selective harvest tag allocation system or declare a moratorium on the Moose hunt,outright,until we can figure out what's going on.

Hey Guys,

All the details are here, with some of data summarized. There is also a map of areas that are impacted.

http://www.oodmag.com/hunting/big-ga...as-released/#/

My question is how could they be so wrong in the past years? I am sure the populations did not drop in one year. It would have been a lot better if they had introduced the cuts over time not all in one year to give people time to adapt. Got to shake your head at this scenario.

This smells very much like the cod fishery cuts in the recent past - they waited until the cod stocks totally collapsed before they brought in severe cuts.

Somebody dropped the ball on this one.

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Originally Posted by Elvis

WOW! Being going to zone 8 for years, this year only 12 tags.....This is what happens when governments have no idea as to how to run ministries, finances and bugets. Except feed at the trough for their on self righteousness.

Feel bad for the local business's and for those who count on meat in their freezers for the winter.

enough of this provincial government, they need to go NOW!!!!!

"E"

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i 2ed the motion

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Originally Posted by Ahuntr300

My question is how could they be so wrong in the past years? I am sure the populations did not drop in one year. It would have been a lot better if they had introduced the cuts over time not all in one year to give people time to adapt. Got to shake your head at this scenario.

This smells very much like the cod fishery cuts in the recent past - they waited until the cod stocks totally collapsed before they brought in severe cuts.

Somebody dropped the ball on this one.

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I bet they didn't want to break this news this close to the provincial election. Bear numbers are up and moose numbrrs are dosn .....any connection.

Did you guys notice decreased moose numbers last fall? I'm not a moose hunter so i don't really take note when I'm hunting.

By my math there is a decrease of 2901 adult tags. 2700 fewer bull tags and 201 cow tags.....I'm no biologist but this just doesn't add up for me...shouldn't they be cutting cow tags drastically and bull tags less drastically?

So, why all these meetings to discuss a new tag allocation system. They should of been discussing the declining herd instead. Just tells me that no one in the ministry or government has a handle on it.

I'm sure if they were to kill off some geese in the Toronto area, everyone and their neigbhour would be up in arms. When it comes to moose, it's in the north where there aren't any Liberal votes. Not a big deal. Let's see 10 years of Liberal government, a 10 year decline of the moose herd. This is what you get, WMU drastically reduced, northern revenue drastically reduced, and on and on. Oh yeah, hydro rates going up again in May.

Bull crap, all of it.

"E"......sorry for the rant. We spend good money to persue our sport, only thing I ask is that the money is well spent...NOT>

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Originally Posted by DanO

Did you guys notice decreased moose numbers last fall? I'm not a moose hunter so i don't really take note when I'm hunting.

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4 years ago we got 1 bull
3 years ago we got 2 bulls
2 years ago we got 2 bulls
last year we got 4 bulls and 1 cow

we hunt wmu 13. I don't know what happened over the winter but things sure were looking pretty good.

With the no bull guarantee in 13 and the high number to get a cow, we will be going elsewhere....

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Originally Posted by fratri

It certainly sounds like the moose population is in trouble................... If I could I would close the season and make it illegal to take a moose by everyone (natives, outfitters and hunters) until I figured out exactly why the decline and I had a feasible plan to turn things around.

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My understanding with respect to aboriginals is that hunting is an individual right. As such, there can NEVER be any kind of regulation imposed on that right. All that can happen is that the bands/Chiefs ask the status folks not to hunt, ergo; it would have to be voluntary.

As to why the sudden drastic change in 2014 allocation numbers, I'd guess that things may have been on a slight downward trend but the MNR was cautiously optimistic going forward. But then along came a very long, cold, brutal winter and it made things go from kinda bad to worst case scenario.

Elk tags have been reduced this year too.

I don't know where there 18% comes from there is just over 10000 tags this year down from just over 16000 last year that is a drop of over 34% by my calculations but I don't understand not dropping cows more for a year or two. It looks like a lot of the units have wolf tags in place I wonder how much this added with no spring bear had to do with things. I also think deer entering moose zones (15b) as when we started hunting there twenty years ago there where no deer there is lots now. Shame they waited so long to have any actions

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Originally Posted by exgunner

I don't know where there 18% comes from there is just over 10000 tags this year down from just over 16000 last year that is a drop of over 34% by my calculations but I don't understand not dropping cows more for a year or two. It looks like a lot of the units have wolf tags in place I wonder how much this added with no spring bear had to do with things. I also think deer entering moose zones (15b) as when we started hunting there twenty years ago there where no deer there is lots now. Shame they waited so long to have any actions

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Sadly the ministry seems to be very reactionary instead of being proactive about such issues. The problem with being reactionary on such a large scale is that by the time you react it is a bit late. All of these current issues could have and probably were predicted 5+ years ago. Sad that instead of doing something then they are scrambling now. Will it make a difference? Probably not, they will continue to see dwindling moose numbers I suspect for the coming years. I wouldn't be surprised if we see a no hunt year in the upcoming few years similar to what was done in Minnesota.

sad to hear all this bad news .........
i love hunting but it is getting way to hard to do it ........
have to drive 1.5 h to shoot gun off at some clays and go ask people for permision to hunt and they give you that look like you are a killer lol i have decided to save some money and buy some land were i can drive up and do what i want ...

So in the northwest 14/30 wmu's, northeast 7/27 wmu's and in the south 4/15 wmu's had aerial surveys and they come to this conclusion. Seems to me a lot was missed here. Can the biologists realy make a judgement about the population considering they only surveyed 25/72 wmu's? Has this been how it was done over the years? Or have the hunting surveys been miscalculated?

I hear you ginochipchip ... However, be very careful what you buy and where, because it is not automatic that you can do "what you want" on your own land. Rules and regulations still apply to private property anywhere in Ontario. We photograph a bunch of moose on a private property every year but have never drawn a tag for there yet. Haven't gone there to shoot a calf either.

I have only ever bought three moose tags, and the groups that I hunted with never harvested a moose anyway. It is considered to be a big adventure by many hunters and I wish I could go every year myself.
The tag draw system is quite sophisticated already but they seem to be making up even more rules on the fly! Them scientists have a job to do I guess and have to justify their pay-cheques by coming up with new data, new management strategies, etc.

I honestly agree with fratri, I think we should just STOP hunting moose for a couple of years and dedicate our collective time, money, and effort to just figure out what's going on with the populations in various areas of Ontario. Catch our breath, get re-organized, and start hunting moose again after a two year break. A simpler draw system would be appreciated too!

This harsh winter that we have just witnessed might have reduced moose populations in many WMUs. Maybe, the MNR knows something that they are not sharing. All we can do for now is comply with the rules as usual and hope for a "better tomorrow". Maybe this IS their way of giving the moose herds a break for a while...?

If you start reading some of there press releases from last year they were asked about the decline in moose south of the border and they said "our moose populations are just fine we don't know what happened in the states " this is last year Lot seems to have happened over the course of five months I don't think the government has a clue spending the money covering up there stupidity like gas plants anyone who votes liberal are deaf to the real world

Do these numbers include the outfitter tags or are they just for the draw? If our moose are in that much of a decline then the first tags to be chopped should be the outfitters and stop the non resident hunting.

What this really means is more moose for the natives and so called Metis

Remember when they do an aerial survey it is not the whole WMU only a small section and only every three years.So if the area that they fly over has been cut the moose won't be found there.

The residents of Northern Ontario need to start speaking in a nearly unintelligible accent with strange sayings often exclaiming "Laird Tunderin'!!" And "Bye Jeeezis!" Maybe wear a Sou'wester kissing some cod, drinking Screech...If they can convince Woody1948 to stay he might be able to teach them....Worked for the moose population on the rock.

Happy Easter Everyone.

What time of year do these aerial surveys take place? This past winter with the most snow in 20 years would have limited moose movement somewhat? Could the survey counts be wrong because of factors like that?

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Originally Posted by Bizzarro

What time of year do these aerial surveys take place? This past winter with the most snow in 20 years would have limited moose movement somewhat? Could the survey counts be wrong because of factors like that?

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In my opinion, quite possibly that could be the reason. If they yarded up in heavy regen, the surveys may have missed them....... just a thought. We saw lots of moose and tons of fresh sign in our WMU last fall. Now it's one of the areas without a guaranteed group size?
You'll never convince me that the winter severity was the reason. We've hunted this area for well over 30 yrs. Way back then, winters were all severe. What we have noticed, is a dramatic increase in bears and wolves.

That's Maritimer speak. Do you have Maritimer blood?

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Originally Posted by Fishy Wishy

The residents of Northern Ontario need to start speaking in a nearly unintelligible accent with strange sayings often exclaiming "Laird Tunderin'!!" And "Bye Jeeezis!" Maybe wear a Sou'wester kissing some cod, drinking Screech...If they can convince Woody1948 to stay he might be able to teach them....Worked for the moose population on the rock.

Happy Easter Everyone.

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Originally Posted by greatwhite

That's Maritimer speak. Do you have Maritimer blood?

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Nope...Northern Ontarian for 5 generations give or take.

I just figured those Newfies have a huge moose populaion....maybe we should do what they do.

Nobody can understand how they came up with this year's tag numbers...
However, after all it is a great opportunity and, besides those who already booked their fall vacation, we all should be thankful:
Now, we can openly ask the MNR how they manage our resources scientifically, which has to include

1. Not only habitat and actual population, but
2. the politically dicey topic of aboriginals
3. wolfes (incl. tag system in NOnt. and no hunt zones)
4. and last but not least the spring bear hunt !!

As sad as this change in tag allocation is, it happened at the right time.

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Originally Posted by JeffBondar

4 years ago we got 1 bull
3 years ago we got 2 bulls
2 years ago we got 2 bulls
last year we got 4 bulls and 1 cow

we hunt wmu 13. I don't know what happened over the winter but things sure were looking pretty good.

With the no bull guarantee in 13 and the high number to get a cow, we will be going elsewhere....

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With 5 moose last year it looks like you did your part in reducing the numbers quite effectively.

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Originally Posted by Wahoo

My understanding with respect to aboriginals is that hunting is an individual right. As such, there can NEVER be any kind of regulation imposed on that right. All that can happen is that the bands/Chiefs ask the status folks not to hunt, ergo; it would have to be voluntary.

As to why the sudden drastic change in 2014 allocation numbers, I'd guess that things may have been on a slight downward trend but the MNR was cautiously optimistic going forward. But then along came a very long, cold, brutal winter and it made things go from kinda bad to worst case scenario.

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Last time I hunted in 48 (2011) , the local natives were limited to 8 people to a tag. Many bands have implemented limits on big game animals.

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Originally Posted by Waftrudnir

Nobody can understand how they came up with this year's tag numbers...
However, after all it is a great opportunity and, besides those who already booked their fall vacation, we all should be thankful:
Now, we can openly ask the MNR how they manage our resources scientifically, which has to include

1. Not only habitat and actual population, but
2. the politically dicey topic of aboriginals
3. wolfes (incl. tag system in NOnt. and no hunt zones)
4. and last but not least the spring bear hunt !!

As sad as this change in tag allocation is, it happened at the right time.

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The MNR has no authority when it comes to natives and hunting except when dealing with species at risk.

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Originally Posted by SeanL

The MNR has no authority when it comes to natives and hunting except when dealing with species at risk.

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never said they do. regardless, it is a topic that needs to be discussed sooner or later: the aboriginal population is significantly increasing and at some point, things that may worked in the past will not in the future.
some bands may recognise that and do things voluntarily, but as always it needs only one rotten apple to spoil an entire bushel.
I know it's a taboo to talk about them, but afterall, we are all just people and hunt the same game. The criminal code applies to them, they have to drive on the same side of the road, etc. So, why can they not obey by the same rules as the rest of us? They should be required to have tags and licences and all the other regs should apply too. Give them all the tags for free if you want as long as they have to go through the same lottery.

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Originally Posted by SeanL

With 5 moose last year it looks like you did your part in reducing the numbers quite effectively.

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Are you suggesting there is a problem with our success?

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Originally Posted by Waftrudnir

never said they do. regardless, it is a topic that needs to be discussed sooner or later: the aboriginal population is significantly increasing and at some point, things that may worked in the past will not in the future.
some bands may recognise that and do things voluntarily, but as always it needs only one rotten apple to spoil an entire bushel.
I know it's a taboo to talk about them, but afterall, we are all just people and hunt the same game. The criminal code applies to them, they have to drive on the same side of the road, etc. So, why can they not obey by the same rules as the rest of us? They should be required to have tags and licences and all the other regs should apply too. Give them all the tags for free if you want as long as they have to go through the same lottery.

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What I am saying is that the MNR can discuss the natives all they want but that it would take agreements with all the bands or a constitutional amendment to bring native hunting in line with everybody else. Some bands will oppose just because they can and constitutional amendments are hard to come by. It's a good idea but will be a long term strategy for sure.

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Originally Posted by JeffBondar

Are you suggesting there is a problem with our success?

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I am saying that just because you can shoot 5 moose does not mean you should. Hunter success rates are a big factor in how well the herds do, not just mismanagement.

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Originally Posted by SeanL

I am saying that just because you can shoot 5 moose does not mean you should. Hunter success rates are a big factor in how well the herds do, not just mismanagement.

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You must be kidding me. I didn't say I shot 5 moose, I said "we" shot 5 moose. You know how many guys are required to get 5 tags? Do you know how much planning, money, time, meetings, vacation, being away from our families, sleepless nights, preparation ect ect ect is required to drive 18 hours and live in the bush for a week all for the opportunity to hunt and harvest moose?

This is a pro hunting and fishing forum, we support the aforementioned as well as preservation of species. If there were x amount of tags available and we drew 5 and were successful enough to fill them, how can you tell me we did something wrong? I am not a wildlife biologist, I don't do my own aerial surveys nor am I an expert on why population go up or down, that is the job of the mnr. If they determine we are allowed x amount of tags then I'll go along with that and have no recourse for filling them in the same way I have no problem with the number of tags being reduced this year.

Feel free to preach to someone else, perhaps you stumbled upon the wrong forum and should perhaps be looking for PETA. I not sure of the url but you should find it easily enough using Google....

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Originally Posted by SeanL

With 5 moose last year it looks like you did your part in reducing the numbers quite effectively.

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It seems you have a chip on your shoulder. Do you have problem with other hunters being successful?

What really bugs me is when others get moose and I don't! Sometimes that happens! But not often :)

Moose #'s are down but that only makes the real hunters hunt harder, longer, wiser.

Anyone with a tag will make the shot when the time comes!

AND THAT IS THE REALITY OF IT!

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Originally Posted by JeffBondar

You must be kidding me. I didn't say I shot 5 moose, I said "we" shot 5 moose. You know how many guys are required to get 5 tags? Do you know how much planning, money, time, meetings, vacation, being away from our families, sleepless nights, preparation ect ect ect is required to drive 18 hours and live in the bush for a week all for the opportunity to hunt and harvest moose?

This is a pro hunting and fishing forum, we support the aforementioned as well as preservation of species. If there were x amount of tags available and we drew 5 and were successful enough to fill them, how can you tell me we did something wrong? I am not a wildlife biologist, I don't do my own aerial surveys nor am I an expert on why population go up or down, that is the job of the mnr. If they determine we are allowed x amount of tags then I'll go along with that and have no recourse for filling them in the same way I have no problem with the number of tags being reduced this year.

Feel free to preach to someone else, perhaps you stumbled upon the wrong forum and should perhaps be looking for PETA. I not sure of the url but you should find it easily enough using Google....

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Excellent post !!!!!!

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Originally Posted by werner.reiche

It seems you have a chip on your shoulder. Do you have problem with other hunters being successful?

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No chip, just disbelief. As a native I can shoot all the moose I want whenever I want, but I don't. Like most people here I don't need the meat, I hunt for the pleasure of hunting. The meat is just a nice bonus, especially considering that hunting for meat is almost always more expensive than buying it.

Most people recognize that the government can't do much right, if anything at all, and although we are not happy about it we live with it. I don't believe I have ever seen a comment here applauding the MNR for their management of our natural resources, so when I see a comment saying our group harvested 5 adult moose last year I have to wonder if they are the only people out there who does not recognize the MNR does a poor job, or if they simply don't care about the future of the resource. Conservation of our resources is everybodys responsibility, especially when you already know it is badly managed.

No single rain drop ever blamed itself for the flood.

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Originally Posted by SeanL

No chip, just disbelief. As a native I can shoot all the moose I want whenever I want, but I don't. Like most people here I don't need the meat, I hunt for the pleasure of hunting. The meat is just a nice bonus, especially considering that hunting for meat is almost always more expensive than buying it.

Most people recognize that the government can't do much right, if anything at all, and although we are not happy about it we live with it. I don't believe I have ever seen a comment here applauding the MNR for their management of our natural resources, so when I see a comment saying our group harvested 5 adult moose last year I have to wonder if they are the only people out there who does not recognize the MNR does a ty job or if they simply don't care about the future of the resource. Conservation of our resources is everybodys responsibility, especially when you already know it is badly managed.

No single rain drop ever blamed itself for the flood.

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When we hunt ducks we limit out more then 50% of the time, we also shoot a lot of grouse when moose hunting. I fish lake Ontario for salmon and trout all summer and haul hundreds and hundreds of pounds of fish out of the lake. Based on what you are saying, we should not believe anything the mnr has to say with regards to limits and the best practice for all of us here is to stop hunting and fishing all together. Is that about right????

Give your head a shake....

The only resource I have to go on is what the mnr tells me. Weather they do a good job or not is irrelevant because they have more resources and know more then I do to make the decisions outlining limits in which we can harvest animals.

As long as I don't take more then what I'm legally allowed then I'm doing nothing wrong and for you to say otherwise is your own opinion. Unless you stop hunting and fishing all together, your opinion means nothing to me.

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Originally Posted by JeffBondar

When we hunt ducks we limit out more then 50% of the time, we also shoot a lot of grouse when moose hunting. I fish lake Ontario for salmon and trout all summer and haul hundreds and hundreds of pounds of fish out of the lake. Based on what you are saying, we should not believe anything the mnr has to say with regards to limits and the best practice for all of us here is to stop hunting and fishing all together. Is that about right????

Give your head a shake....

The only resource I have to go on is what the mnr tells me. Weather they do a good job or not is irrelevant because they have more resources and know more then I do to make the decisions outlining limits in which we can harvest animals.

As long as I don't take more then what I'm legally allowed then I'm doing nothing wrong and for you to say otherwise is your own opinion. Unless you stop hunting and fishing all together, your opinion means nothing to me.

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Hey have it your way, when the MNR closes the recreational moose hunt and I am still out there you can tell me how it worked out for you.

Jeff's group jumped through the same hoops that the rest of us do every year when it comes to applying for moose tags. If they managed to get 5 tags and then managed to fill them all, I'd say that a good plan came together. For all you know SeanL, Jeff could have 20 guys in his group.

Again not a biologist here but we aren't talking a few less tags we are talking 2,901 fewer adult tags across Ontario. 18% fewer across the province with some WMUs 94% fewer. I still cannot understand why such a large cut in bull tags (2700) and such a small cut in cow tags (201)...it makes no sense to me.

Seems that the tag allocation/quotas of the past must have been erroneously high...or there is a fault in the frequency/adequacy of the aerial surveys. I don't believe for one second that Natives "from Quebec" or otherwise have killed that many moose in one season or that bears or wolves have had that much effect in a single year. Perhaps surveying 7/27 of the Northeast WMUs isn't adequate, just sayin'.

Maybe with such a low survey in those selected WMUs they should have expanded and surveyed more. These are the types of issues that show clearly, how underfunded the MNR is. In 2013 there were 102,770 hunters buy licenses and apply for adult tags (added up all Pool 1 and Pool 2, 1st choice applicant numbers for gun and bow tags).. @ $56/ each that is over $5.75M that in my opinion should go back into managing the moose herd. I know that is not a huge number when talking MNR budget but I'm tired of hearing excuses for lack of CO action due to budget restraints. And I know licensing fees go to general coffers not individual ministries but I believe in a pay for use system.

The last couple years I have seen lots of moose in 28, that were unshootable for a myriad of reasons (season, no tag/wrong tag, unverified ID etc).

That being said. If none of my group gets a tag, I don't think I'll be searching out calves this year. Echoing the sentiment, just because I can doesn't mean I should. Perhaps I'll hunt blackbear, perhaps I'll try waterfowl, or the fall turkey hunt...maybe I'll get more small game time in searching for grouse and bunnies. But I will do my part for conservation of my favourite game animal.

FW

Guys I think all SeanL is saying is the old "limit your catch, don't catch your limit" the Bob Izumi used to preach.

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Originally Posted by Fishy Wishy

Again not a biologist here but we aren't talking a few less tags we are talking 2,901 fewer adult tags across Ontario. 18% fewer across the province with some WMUs 94% fewer. I still cannot understand why such a large cut in bull tags (2700) and such a small cut in cow tags (201)...it makes no sense to me.

Seems that the tag allocation/quotas of the past must have been erroneously high...or there is a fault in the frequency/adequacy of the aerial surveys. I don't believe for one second that Natives "from Quebec" or otherwise have killed that many moose in one season or that bears or wolves have had that much effect in a single year. Perhaps surveying 7/27 of the Northeast WMUs isn't adequate, just sayin'.

Maybe with such a low survey in those selected WMUs they should have expanded and surveyed more. These are the types of issues that show clearly, how underfunded the MNR is. In 2013 there were 102,770 hunters buy licenses and apply for adult tags (added up all Pool 1 and Pool 2, 1st choice applicant numbers for gun and bow tags).. @ $56/ each that is over $5.75M that in my opinion should go back into managing the moose herd. I know that is not a huge number when talking MNR budget but I'm tired of hearing excuses for lack of CO action due to budget restraints. And I know licensing fees go to general coffers not individual ministries but I believe in a pay for use system.

The last couple years I have seen lots of moose in 28, that were unshootable for a myriad of reasons (season, no tag/wrong tag, unverified ID etc).

That being said. If none of my group gets a tag, I don't think I'll be searching out calves this year. Echoing the sentiment, just because I can doesn't mean I should. Perhaps I'll hunt blackbear, perhaps I'll try waterfowl, or the fall turkey hunt...maybe I'll get more small game time in searching for grouse and bunnies. But I will do my part for conservation of my favourite game animal.

FW

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I can't speak for anyone other then "Us". I'll suggest that the reason for a high % of bull tags cut has to do with the possibility that when we report what we have harvested, maybe a large percentage is bulls? Maybe 8 or 9 out of 10 adult moose shot are bulls? I don't know, just putting it out there. By reducing the bull tags and not so much the cow, the mnr is still allowing for a hunt to happen perhaps assuming that most groups are not very successful shooting cows?

What are other people ratios?

In the last 4 years we took 10 moose, only 1 was a cow and she was paired up with a bull.

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Originally Posted by Fishy Wishy

Guys I think all SeanL is saying is the old "limit your catch, don't catch your limit" the Bob Izumi used to preach.

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That is what I am saying, just not as well as you. Thanks. Like you we plan to hit the bears this year, might help the moose a bit.

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Originally Posted by Fishy Wishy

Guys I think all SeanL is saying is the old "limit your catch, don't catch your limit" the Bob Izumi used to preach.

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So.... does that mean if we had 10 tags it would have been ok to shoot 5 in your opinion as we would not have "caught our limit"?

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Originally Posted by JeffBondar

So.... does that mean if we had 10 tags it would have been ok to shoot 5 in your opinion as we would not have "caught our limit"?

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Jeff,

Don't go all chest-beating and trying to cause a fight. It isn't going to happen so calm yourself.

I have, nor noes anyone on this thread other than yourself, no idea of the size of your group, and how many game-eating mouths you feed.

YOU and your group have to decide on your needs/uses and if, based on that, you need to fill all of your tags.

Same as if you go fishing daily do you need/can you use the daily limit each time?

I remember growing up we were allowed 6 pickerel each, any size you can catch....and we did. For my family alone that was 24 on the ice, then 30 for my uncle's clan....sometimes we had 100 or more walleye on the ice. What has that done??? Well for starters now the limit is 4 per person and only 1 allowed over 18", and you have pissession limits along with daily catch limits.

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Originally Posted by Fishy Wishy

Jeff,

Don't go all chest-beating and trying to cause a fight. It isn't going to happen so calm yourself.

I have, nor noes anyone on this thread other than yourself, no idea of the size of your group, and how many game-eating mouths you feed.

YOU and your group have to decide on your needs/uses and if, based on that, you need to fill all of your tags.

Same as if you go fishing daily do you need/can you use the daily limit each time?

I remember growing up we were allowed 6 pickerel each, any size you can catch....and we did. For my family alone that was 24 on the ice, then 30 for my uncle's clan....sometimes we had 100 or more walleye on the ice. What has that done??? Well for starters now the limit is 4 per person and only 1 allowed over 18", and you have pissession limits along with daily catch limits.

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I'm not beating my chest, I'm tired of people on this forum preaching their ways, suggesting what they do is better then what other people do and also telling people how they should be doing things. This alone is the reason for most fights on here...

If people follow the rules then let them / us do whatever we want. We are legal, we are doing what we love and enjoy and we are having fun. That's all it comes down to, plain and simple.

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Originally Posted by JeffBondar

I'm not beating my chest, I'm tired of people on this forum preaching their ways, suggesting what they do is better then what other people do and also telling people how they should be doing things. This alone is the reason for most fights on here...

If people follow the rules then let them / us do whatever we want. We are legal, we are doing what we love and enjoy and we are having fun. That's all it comes down to, plain and simple.

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I'm not saying you did anything wrong. I merely interpreted what SeanL was saying.

Not that I can recall you ever complaining about natives and treaty rights but I guess you will abstain from that rhetoric.

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Originally Posted by SeanL

Hey have it your way, when the MNR closes the recreational moose hunt and I am still out there you can tell me how it worked out for you.

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Careful .... you just admitted you're going to harvest a struggling moose population even though the MNR is cutting the harvest for most Canadians. Just because you are allowed to harvest doesn't make it right. How can you criticize the Jeff for taking 5 legally tagged moose last year (before the situation was so dire)?

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Originally Posted by SeanL

Last time I hunted in 48 (2011) , the local natives were limited to 8 people to a tag. Many bands have implemented limits on big game animals.

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The "limit" is more like a gentlemen's agreement. I'm not sure it's rigidly enforced. I don't think many band members don't get a tag unlike the provincial hunt where many applicants don't get a tag (not even a calf tag in zone 48).

First off I think we should get over the fact that Jeff got 5 moose in one year and ask the more important question HOW?? Dam I am looking for pointers on this one as our sucess rate is nowhere near that.

As for the natives in 48, I believe they are the only organized band accross ontario that actually has an agreement in place wiht government and has the band enforce the hunt accordingly.

Donnie

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Originally Posted by Donnie7

First off I think we should get over the fact that Jeff got 5 moose in one year and ask the more important question HOW?? Dam I am looking for pointers on this one as our sucess rate is nowhere near that.

As for the natives in 48, I believe they are the only organized band accross ontario that actually has an agreement in place wiht government and has the band enforce the hunt accordingly.

Donnie

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LOL, that's funny. I can't take all the credit. One of our group members was responsible for finding the spot before I ever came along and out of the past 10 moose shot I only shot 2 of them. Regarding our good results, that is something we keep amongst us. Totally legal but not something many guys do.... Sorry for the last statement as I am usually more then willing to share, just not in this case...

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Originally Posted by DanO

Careful .... you just admitted you're going to harvest a struggling moose population even though the MNR is cutting the harvest for most Canadians. Just because you are allowed to harvest doesn't make it right. How can you criticize the Jeff for taking 5 legally tagged moose last year (before the situation was so dire)?

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You right, I probably could have worded that better, but it does not change the facts. Whether I am hunting or not when most others are banned, many will. Additionally, the moose are obviously struggling right now and I would bet that most moose hunters will still go out this year. Lastly, it is inconceivable to me that anyone who spends as much time in the woods as Jeff does would really have thought the situation got so dire so fast. This has been building for years, as anyone who has watched tag numbers for the last 20 years should already know. The "I didn't know it was so bad" attitude is useful as an excuse to continue poor practices everywhere, but not good for much else.

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Originally Posted by Donnie7

First off I think we should get over the fact that Jeff got 5 moose in one year and ask the more important question HOW?? Dam I am looking for pointers on this one as our sucess rate is nowhere near that.

As for the natives in 48, I believe they are the only organized band accross ontario that actually has an agreement in place wiht government and has the band enforce the hunt accordingly.

Donnie

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You may be right, my band has no such agreement and it is desperately needed. I believe the native Elk hunt is also fairly restricted.

Jeff I'm jelly!!
I cringe at the thought of all the work that has to be done when were onto moose #2, at # 3 I start claiming that I have back problems, could've shot #4 and 5 one year but "I" decided that it was way to much work, "but" I had the riot act read to me when I told my crew as they have the same adage as Jeff..."MNR gave out the tags, we have em why not fill them if we can!!!|"
SO I support Jeff and his groups decision to fill the tags....
But moving forward things do change for all moose hunters in this province. at first change is hard to swallow then the benefits of said change will be to our liking

I think this is just the beginning. I would not be surprised if the hunt is cancelled in the future as it has been in Minnesota which is not too far away from the severely impacted WMUs !!!

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Originally Posted by Moe

Where is all the data to back these decision???? They flew 7 WMU? Most people I talk to think they just woke up from a bad dream.

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I'm one of the guys that hunt in WMU 28, which just saw a 93% reduction in tags, from 457 to 30. I'm scratching my head, as are a lot of guys I talked to, as to the methodology used. We filled our tags last fall, saw no shortage of animal sign, and were visited by a C.O. who told us other camps in the immediate area were successful as well. To get to the point where we are now, either their calculations are seriously flawed, or they have grossly mismanaged the area for several years.

We have become successfull hunters.. when the mnr use to give out 100 tags only 10 would be filled .. now with large groups and ATVs we have probably jump the success rate to 60% or higher the fore forcing the mnr to reduce the tags...