Definition of Sharing a firearm?

My daughter just got her apprentice card and we are both keen to get out hunting together. She is 12. We will likely be hunting geese and she will have her own permits. All fine so far.

But the regs state that we must "share a single firearm".

We would like to alternate, when one flock comes in, she gets a shot, when the next flock comes in, I get a shot. The best education comes from a mix of doing and watching.

I understand that only one person should be using a loaded firearm at any given time, but surely we can't be expected to hike into the blind with only one gun that either doesn't fit me, or doesn't fit her (either situation would be dangerous).

My expectation is that we would each bring our own guns encased into the blind. Only one weapon would actually be loaded at any given time. Therefore we are only hunting with one firearm at any time. You could have a stack of several shotguns in your blind, as long as you are only hunting with one and the others are not in a state to be used.

I am curious what experience others have had hunting with apprentice hunters. What works, what doesn't, and have you had any issues with the above?

I have also written to the ministry for clarification on what constitutes "sharing a firearm" but I don't expect a clear response from them (nor would I expect consistent responses from CO's).

I have read that portion over and over again. It seems to me that it means 1 gun and 1 gun only. I'm hoping someone will say I am wrong.

Only one gun can be out of the case. You can bring as many as you want, but you can only have one uncased and loaded.

More than one uncased, and your asking for trouble.

S.

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Originally Posted by Sinker

Only one gun can be out of the case. You can bring as many as you want, but you can only have one uncased and loaded.

More than one uncased, and your asking for trouble.

S.

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This is exactly how I understand it to be as well.

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Originally Posted by scarkner

I have also written to the ministry for clarification on what constitutes "sharing a firearm" but I don't expect a clear response from them (nor would I expect consistent responses from CO's).

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Since no one on this forum happens to be the judge who will hear your case, this is one for "Ask a CO."

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Originally Posted by welsh

Since no one on this forum happens to be the judge who will hear your case, this is one for "Ask a CO."

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Unfortunately, they took that handy tool down (The E-Mail "Ask A CO") as well as all the previous questions and answers.

Have to try and get one on the phone now.

Attachment 26323
#6
share a SINGLE firearm
single bein the word I see ?

Also, the word "Share" is pretty implicit. You aren't sharing if there is a gun for the minor and a gun for the mentor even if they are not out of the case at the same time.

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Originally Posted by TurkeyRookie

Unfortunately, they took that handy tool down (The E-Mail "Ask A CO") as well as all the previous questions and answers.

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Huh. So they did. Well, the last thing you'd want to do is to communicate with the frigging public.

Probably it was lost due to the cost of rebranding everything from MNR to MNRF for no apparent reason. Adding the "F" as if forests are not already natural resources was an important exercise in using tax dollars to achieve diddly-squat, of which I expect our current government is justifiably proud. But I digress....

Now ... I would say that the language "share a single firearm" unequivocally implies that both mentor and apprentice must use the same gun. In practice, many COs might let a second gun pass if (a) it was encased and (b) they believed you intended to comply with the spirit of the law by only having one person shooting at a time. If you were charged, however, the FWCA is absolute liability, so your intent and the spirit of the law don't come into it.

I hope that reply is sufficiently ambiguous, unclear, and useless -- my getting a job at MNRF depends on it. :)

I took a new hunter out turkey hunting this spring (not an apprentice) who hadn't yet received his PAL in the mail (even though he passed his test and applied), and we brought only one gun. This was despite the fact that we were both fully licensed for hunting. I decided against letting him use my gun while I used my crossbow because my understanding was that I had to be directly supervising his use of the gun. If I was using my crossbow, I would not be directly supervising him.
This is similar to the situation you describe because neither hunter was technically allowed to posess a gun. So if you have two guns out of the case, with one gun being held by each hunter (whether loaded or not), it would seem like this would be against the law.

I would just bring one gun that fit the new hunter and try to help and teach them all you can and worry about shooting birds your self another time .I am 6foot 1 and shoot a 1187 compact with no problems .so you could take the odd bird but let this be a full on learning shoot. you will find that you get more out of watching a newby get there first then shooting your self .I know I do .good on you for teaching a new hunter .enjoy your time out Dutch

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Originally Posted by rf2

I took a new hunter out turkey hunting this spring (not an apprentice) who hadn't yet received his PAL in the mail (even though he passed his test and applied), and we brought only one gun. This was despite the fact that we were both fully licensed for hunting. I decided against letting him use my gun while I used my crossbow because my understanding was that I had to be directly supervising his use of the gun. If I was using my crossbow, I would not be directly supervising him.
This is similar to the situation you describe because neither hunter was technically allowed to posess a gun. So if you have two guns out of the case, with one gun being held by each hunter (whether loaded or not), it would seem like this would be against the law.

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I agree, obivously if we are both holding guns, that's a problem.

My thinking was more in line with the other folks, that if one gun is encased then it should be OK.

Taken to extremes, if I go hunting alone, I can bring a pile of guns, providing I only have one out of the case being used. Why should this change when I have my daughter with me? Still only have ONE firearm being shared by the two of us.

Ah... waiting for a CO response.

One gun, and one gun only. Pick one that fits her properly and try your best to hit something with it.

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Originally Posted by scarkner

Why should this change when I have my daughter with me?

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Because the rules say clearly that in the special case of hunting with your daughter, only one gun is permitted. So by having a second, encased gun, you leave it to a CO's discretion as to whether to charge you.

What exactly is a CO going to charge him with? Hes storing a firearm. 1000% legal.

One loaded gun out of case between the two of them is perfectly fine. You can have as many encased, unloaded guns you want unless im missing something.

S.

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Originally Posted by Sinker

Only one gun can be out of the case. You can bring as many as you want, but you can only have one uncased and loaded.

More than one uncased, and your asking for trouble.

S.

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I agree with Sinker.

No different than having a bunch of guns with you yourself when hunting but only having one out of case, loaded and in use at a time.

Believe it or not, most CO's are great guys and love seeing the youngsters out.

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Originally Posted by Sinker

What exactly is a CO going to charge him with? Hes storing a firearm. 1000% legal.

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You may argue that the firearm is stored but it is also in your possession while you are hunting. The intent of the provision is to ensure that when you hunt with an apprentice, the apprentice is fully supervised, which obviously you can't do if you are hunting yourself. To this end, the rule says that you can share a single firearm. That's unequivocal and it rules out using separate firearms at separate times (assuming it accurately reflects the actual wording of the FWCA).

This is another situation where people hand out advice based on arguments they've come up with, forgetting that the only place that argument counts is before a judge. Nobody here is qualified to say what is 1000% legal, and whether we think the law is logical is irrelevant. If you don't want to make your argument before a judge, you ask a CO and get a clear answer.

To Brent's point, as I pointed out earlier, most COs would probably give it a pass unless they had reason to believe you were both hunting and popped one gun in the case when you saw them coming. But the safest answer here is ask a CO, because "Some guy on the Internet called 'Joe1234' said it was okay" is a poor defence, should it come to that.

Put a trigger lock on the stored firearm that is in the case. Than there is NO doubt that only one firearm.is being used the time.

lol you guys are talking about CO and its really not even there jurisdiction its the Feds that over see the rules and regulation on migratory game birds .. talk to the feds on rules .. thats why your daughter needs a waterfoul permit to shoot the guns she even shoots her own limits and you can then shoot yours .. if its provincial she can not buy a licence .. so talk to the right people first

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Originally Posted by mark270wsm

lol you guys are talking about CO and its really not even there jurisdiction....

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Actually, the question of what constitutes a shared firearm is entirely a matter of Ontario's FWCA, because the apprentice hunter program is an Ontario program (introduced by the Mike Harris government).

I'm not aware of any age limit in the Migratory Birds Convention Act. Provinces set regulations regarding who can hunt within their boundaries; the federal law exists to control the take. The only thing that might apply is that on the designated Waterfowler Heritage Days, a minor does not require a migratory birds permit. In this case, the federal regs say explicitly that the person accompanying the minor may not possess or use a firearm. But that would not apply if accompanying a licensed minor.

I did a quick search in the consolidated statutes and regulations for Ontario but can't find the actual wording that the excerpt from the hunters' safety course posted above is based on.

Sure you may get a CO that would let it slide. You may also get one that will not. How can you, beyond a reasonable doubt, prove that you are being legal when you have a second gun in the blind? Cased and locked how does a CO know you didn't have two guns out 10 minutes before they arrived? Or what if they are waiting at a checkpoint area and you both arrive with guns in cases? How do YOU prove to them you only had one out at a time? I guess how do THEY prove you did at the same time? Pretty difficult for everyone involved. In my mind it's easy, give your daughter the gun that works for her, give her the trigger time, and you make do, it's her passion you're trying to foster and grow. Who knows she may teach you something while you're watching;)

So here's a little hearsay possibly rural legend story. Seems there was this old guy duck hunting mud lake. After a morning hunt with a buddy went out again in the afternoon by himself. buddy had left his unloaded yet uncased gun in the boat. CO doing a check found all okay except for the second gun. Ended up giving the guy a ticket and said if that gun was in the case all would of been okay. Not exactly what your asking but my inference is if the gun is in case than its not being used. Sort of think its like you got to have your gun encased 1/2 hour after sundown to 1/2 hour before sun up.

10. (1) Subject to this section, the hunter apprenticeship safety card shall be deemed to be a hunting licence. O. Reg. 665/98, s. 10 (1).
(2) The deemed licence is subject to the following conditions:
1. Wildlife may be hunted by the apprentice only under the direct and immediate supervision of a hunter who is at least 18 years of age and who holds a hunting licence to hunt the species of wildlife that the apprentice is hunting.
2. The holder of a class A1 hunter apprenticeship safety card shall not carry or use a firearm other than the single firearm that he or she is sharing with the licensed hunter under whose supervision he or she is hunting.

The section above is from Ontario Regulation 665 / 98.

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Originally Posted by finsfurfeathers

So here's a little hearsay possibly rural legend story. Seems there was this old guy duck hunting mud lake. After a morning hunt with a buddy went out again in the afternoon by himself. buddy had left his unloaded yet uncased gun in the boat. CO doing a check found all okay except for the second gun. Ended up giving the guy a ticket and said if that gun was in the case all would of been okay. Not exactly what your asking but my inference is if the gun is in case than its not being used. Sort of think its like you got to have your gun encased 1/2 hour after sundown to 1/2 hour before sun up.

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Off topic a bit but the "one firearm" regulation pertains only to hunting waterfowl. You may carry and use as many guns as you want to hunt other game, as long as the firearm is legal for the game being hunted.
Thats likely why it's in the FWCA, rather than the MBCA.

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Originally Posted by rick_iles

2. The holder of a class A1 hunter apprenticeship safety card shall not carry or use a firearm other than the single firearm that he or she is sharing with the licensed hunter under whose supervision he or she is hunting.

The section above is from Ontario Regulation 665 / 98.

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Very helpful. Thanks for looking that up.

Look up your local ministry office and give them a call, I've had great luck in getting my questions answered, from experience they do want to help. I typically call the office in the area I am going to hunt, so, even being in Southern Ontario will call a Northern office for clarification, after all, these are the guys your likely to encounter. State your concern clearly, I'm confident you'll get straight answers. My understanding of the law is you can only have 1 gun uncased and loaded at a time in this situation.

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Originally Posted by mark270wsm

lol you guys are talking about CO and its really not even there jurisdiction its the Feds that over see the rules and regulation on migratory game birds .. talk to the feds on rules .. thats why your daughter needs a waterfoul permit to shoot the guns she even shoots her own limits and you can then shoot yours .. if its provincial she can not buy a licence .. so talk to the right people first

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She's hunting under the Hunter Apprentice Program and that's Provincial jurisdiction.

Some of the crap that comes out here blowss my mind. Even after the actual reglation is posted, you still believe you cant have another encased gun? Really?

When my son and I start hunting on his apprentice license, i'll have my gun with us, encased, and unloaded. His will be locked and loaded. Once he shoots his limit, its my turn (if we're so lucky).

Show me a regulation, law, rule....anything that says I cant have my encased gun with me.

S.

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Originally Posted by BLR308

Also, the word "Share" is pretty implicit. You aren't sharing if there is a gun for the minor and a gun for the mentor even if they are not out of the case at the same time.

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That's my thoughts too. Even if one is cased, you're going to be answering a lot of questions....and if you get stopped going to/from the blind with both guns cased, even more questions. Why look for trouble?

I would contact the local MNRF office for the District that you will be hunting and ask to get contact information for the local conservation officer(s) who patrol the area. Ask them directly and get their answer in writing. That way you will be dealing directly with the officer who would likely be issuing a ticket. If it is not the officer you talked to then at least you would have backup showing a CO said yay or nay.

One gun between the two of them for any game excluding waterfowl. For waterfowl, the youth may have their own firearm so long as they are licensed.

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Originally Posted by BLR308

Also, the word "Share" is pretty implicit. You aren't sharing if there is a gun for the minor and a gun for the mentor even if they are not out of the case at the same time.

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As long as the apprentice and mentor are "sharing" only one firearm at a time,any other encased firearm which happens to be with them is beside the point. There is NO regulation,anywhere,that states hunters are only allowed one gun. Rick_isles Post #23 is very specific.

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Originally Posted by Sinker

Some of the crap that comes out here blowss my mind. Even after the actual reglation is posted, you still believe you cant have another encased gun? Really?

When my son and I start hunting on his apprentice license, i'll have my gun with us, encased, and unloaded. His will be locked and loaded. Once he shoots his limit, its my turn (if we're so lucky).

Show me a regulation, law, rule....anything that says I cant have my encased gun with me.

S.

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The old adage is true in this regard. You can lead a horse to water,but......;)

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Originally Posted by welsh

Actually, the question of what constitutes a shared firearm is entirely a matter of Ontario's FWCA, because the apprentice hunter program is an Ontario program (introduced by the Mike Harris government).

I'm not aware of any age limit in the Migratory Birds Convention Act. Provinces set regulations regarding who can hunt within their boundaries; the federal law exists to control the take. The only thing that might apply is that on the designated Waterfowler Heritage Days, a minor does not require a migratory birds permit. In this case, the federal regs say explicitly that the person accompanying the minor may not possess or use a firearm. But that would not apply if accompanying a licensed minor.

I did a quick search in the consolidated statutes and regulations for Ontario but can't find the actual wording that the excerpt from the hunters' safety course posted above is based on.

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You've spewed too much BS in this thread. You obviously have no clue what the rules are. Show me exactly where it states what I've bolded above in any regulation, whether under FWCA, or MBCA.

Thats what I thought.

Posession of a firearm is not an offence in any situation so long as you have a valid firearms license. Period. End of story.

If your extra gun is encased and unloaded there isn't a damn thing anyone can say or do about it as long as you have your PAL with you.

S.

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Originally Posted by chris1395

Sure you may get a CO that would let it slide. You may also get one that will not. How can you, beyond a reasonable doubt, prove that you are being legal when you have a second gun in the blind? Cased and locked how does a CO know you didn't have two guns out 10 minutes before they arrived? Or what if they are waiting at a checkpoint area and you both arrive with guns in cases? How do YOU prove to them you only had one out at a time? I guess how do THEY prove you did at the same time? Pretty difficult for everyone involved. In my mind it's easy, give your daughter the gun that works for her, give her the trigger time, and you make do, it's her passion you're trying to foster and grow. Who knows she may teach you something while you're watching;)

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We don't need to "prove" anything to anyone,for any reason. That's a fundamental right under The Charter. Firearms DO NOT need to be locked,either,only encased,as long as they under your direct control. How does a CO know you didn't have them out 10 minutes before they arrived? They don't and may NOT infer that you did. That,too,is illegal. There's no law that says you may not have more than one gun with you. Anymore,we really need to know and be cognizant of our civil rights and always be quick to exercise them.

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

We don't need to "prove" anything to anyone,for any reason. That's a fundamental right under The Charter. Firearms DO NOT need to be locked,either,only encased,as long as they under your direct control. How does a CO know you didn't have them out 10 minutes before they arrived? They don't and may NOT infer that you did. That,too,is illegal. There's no law that says you may not have more than one gun with you. Anymore,we really need to know and be cognizant of our civil rights and always be quick to exercise them.

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Exactly you have to be caught in the act of committing the offence, if I am hunting out West we regularly bring a back up gun in the boat with us (encased of course) and will continue to do so. I have yet to meet a CO or an OPP officer who is "out to get someone" while in the field, quite the opposite actually and much of that probably has to do with the way I present and conduct myself while in their presence

The whole issue boils down to two words in the regulations, "carried" or "used". A shotgun in the corner of a duck blind encased, is neither "carried" or "used". Having said this, the regulations are open to interpretation by CO's, and I have seen some pretty bizzare interpretations over the years. Ultimately it will boil down to how a Justice interprets the regulations.

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Originally Posted by skeeter1

much of that probably has to do with the way I present and conduct myself while in their presence

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Pretty simple isnt it?

If you want to act like an Ahole expect to be treated like one.

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Originally Posted by Sinker

You've spewed too much BS in this thread. You obviously have no clue what the rules are. Show me exactly where it states what I've bolded above in any regulation, whether under FWCA, or MBCA.

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Migratory Birds Regulations, Section 5 (General Prohibitions):
(11) Despite subsections (1) and (3), a minor may hunt the migratory birds referred to in column 2 or column II, as the case may be, of Table I of any Part of Schedule I without a permit only during the days that are set out in that column, referred to in Table I as “Waterfowler Heritage Days”, if the person

(a) is lawfully able to hunt in the province or territory where the hunting will occur; and

(b) is accompanied by a migratory game bird hunting permit holder who is not a minor.

(12) The permit holder referred to in paragraph (11)(b) must not, during the days referred to in subsection (11)

(a) have in their possession or use a firearm while accompanying the minor; and

(b) accompany more than two minors at one time.

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Originally Posted by Sinker

Thats what I thought.

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Well, I'm glad we cleared that up.

A minor may hunt without a licence on a designated Waterfowler Heritage Day, if accompanied by a mentor who is not permitted to "have in their possession" or use a firearm, although this does not apply to this specific case. That's exactly what I wrote before.


While you accuse me of spewing BS, note that I haven't said that having a second gun is definitely not allowed, only that it is arguably not allowed, and that this would depend on the judgment of a CO. So rather than relying on some guy on the Internet claiming he knows all the rules, you should ask a CO.

I'm not sure what part of "ask a CO" you find so offensive. I am not the only person here making that suggestion.

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Originally Posted by skeeter1

Exactly you have to be caught in the act of committing the offence....

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But what the offence actually is depends on how the law is worded. Nothing in the law here refers to you actually hunting. It is a requirement to share a single firearm. If this is interpreted to mean you can't have a second gun with you, then you commit the offence by having the second gun. And because the FWCA is absolute liability, what you intended to do with that second gun is irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by rick_iles

... the regulations are open to interpretation by CO's, and I have seen some pretty bizzare interpretations over the years. Ultimately it will boil down to how a Justice interprets the regulations.

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This is my entire point. And as I've said before, I believe most COs, even if they thought the letter of the law said otherwise, would look at your encased gun, decide you were complying with the spirit of the law, and leave you alone.

Welsh, in the case of Heritage day the season is closed to all those but the minors correct? In that case it would make sense that the mentor should not have a firearm with him/her even if encased, but I'm still not sure that it is illegal if it is in the case.

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Originally Posted by skeeter1

Welsh, in the case of Heritage day the season is closed to all those but the minors correct? In that case it would make sense that the mentor should not have a firearm with him/her even if encased, but I'm still not sure that it is illegal if it is in the case.

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That's the rationale. If it's in the case, it's still in your possession, although just what "possession" means can be complicated. It would be like having a loaded gun with you in a place where wildlife is found, under the FWCA, just worded differently.

But of course this has nothing to do with the OP. I only brought it up originally to point out that nothing in the MBCA or Regulations actually affects the OP directly.

Poor guy asked a question so he gets it clear in his head and gets all this to read through.lol

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Originally Posted by Sinker

Only one gun can be out of the case. You can bring as many as you want, but you can only have one uncased and loaded.

More than one uncased, and your asking for trouble.

S.

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Agree with this also. You can have 10 guns with you when you are hunting solo as long as only one is out of the case. Cant see why it would be different with an apprentice....

If you are moose hunting with an apprentice you would probably still want to bring your partridge plinker along too.....as long as only one is uncased.

I've been on a few goose hunts myself where I wish I had a coyote rig with me as well.

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Originally Posted by welsh

Migratory Birds Regulations, Section 5 (General Prohibitions):
(11) Despite subsections (1) and (3), a minor may hunt the migratory birds referred to in column 2 or column II, as the case may be, of Table I of any Part of Schedule I without a permit only during the days that are set out in that column, referred to in Table I as “Waterfowler Heritage Days”, if the person

(a) is lawfully able to hunt in the province or territory where the hunting will occur; and

(b) is accompanied by a migratory game bird hunting permit holder who is not a minor.

(12) The permit holder referred to in paragraph (11)(b) must not, during the days referred to in subsection (11)

(a) have in their possession or use a firearm while accompanying the minor; and

(b) accompany more than two minors at one time.



Well, I'm glad we cleared that up.

A minor may hunt without a licence on a designated Waterfowler Heritage Day, if accompanied by a mentor who is not permitted to "have in their possession" or use a firearm, although this does not apply to this specific case. That's exactly what I wrote before.


While you accuse me of spewing BS, note that I haven't said that having a second gun is definitely not allowed, only that it is arguably not allowed, and that this would depend on the judgment of a CO. So rather than relying on some guy on the Internet claiming he knows all the rules, you should ask a CO.

I'm not sure what part of "ask a CO" you find so offensive. I am not the only person here making that suggestion.



But what the offence actually is depends on how the law is worded. Nothing in the law here refers to you actually hunting. It is a requirement to share a single firearm. If this is interpreted to mean you can't have a second gun with you, then you commit the offence by having the second gun. And because the FWCA is absolute liability, what you intended to do with that second gun is irrelevant.



This is my entire point. And as I've said before, I believe most COs, even if they thought the letter of the law said otherwise, would look at your encased gun, decide you were complying with the spirit of the law, and leave you alone.

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Your a real piece of work. You must have something better to do, no?

All of what you posted there is totally irrelevant to the question.

Heritage day? When did we start that conversation?

Bottom line is the OP CAN take his gun, and as long as there is ONLY one gun UN-cased and used or carried by the apprentice, it doesn't matter how many other guns are with them, so bringing his gun along to take turns is totally legal.

You can turn the words around all you want, and pull legislation from wherever you want, I'll just stick to the original question, and the FACTS.

S.

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Originally Posted by Sinker

Heritage day? When did we start that conversation?

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Someone suggested that the Migratory Birds Convention Act was the governing legislation.

I pointed out that the Hunter Apprentice rules were provincial, not federal, and that the only way the MBCA said anything even remotely similar was with respect to the Heritage Days, which had nothing to do with the OP.

Then you chose to attack me over it by suggesting no such rule exists and I am spewing BS on a topic I know nothing about, so I pointed to the actual regs.

That's how we started that conversation: you did it. We were having a civil conversation up until you started making personal attacks. You were the one who made an issue of what the rules for Heritage Days actually are, you were the one who accused someone of spewing BS, you were the one who made it personal.

I have said from the start that the thing in the federal regs re Heritage Days is irrelevant. Apparently you didn't read those parts.

Just stick to the original question, OK? Your confusing everyone who might read this. The answer is simple.

Thanks! :)

Have a great day!

S.

Yes, the answer is simple: ask a CO, instead of taking the word of some guy on the Internet.

As for taking this off topic, you were the one who demanded I post details instead of leaving it at "The feds only say this, which doesn't count."

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Originally Posted by Sinker

Bottom line is the OP CAN take his gun, and as long as there is ONLY one gun UN-cased and used or carried by the apprentice, it doesn't matter how many other guns are with them, so bringing his gun along to take turns is totally legal.

You can turn the words around all you want, and pull legislation from wherever you want, I'll just stick to the original question, and the FACTS.

S.

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To say unequivocally that the OP can certainly have as many guns with him as he wants in the situation described is overly simplistic. Have you obtained such an opinion from someone who is qualified to make this determination? Or are you just giving your opinion. If it is the latter, you might want to clarify this.

Personally, I don’t think the issue is as simple as some appear to believe. As another poster pointed out, the issue comes down to the interpretation of or “carry” or “use”. Below I have quoted an instance from the hunting regulations summary where the MNRF gives a very broad interpretation of these terms (pg 75):
“Big game, including black bears, may only be hunted with a firearm (this includes bows). If you are hunting deer or moose at the same time you are hunting black bears, you may only use or carry (on your person, in a vehicle or boat) a firearm of the type permitted for deer or moose, as the case may be, at that time in that Wildlife Management Unit (WMU).”

This seems to indicate that they consider having another firearm even in your vehicle or boat as “carrying” or “using” it. If this is the case, then having it in your blind would certainly be considered carrying it or using it. So if we extend this interpretation to the situation the OP is describing, the CO could consider that the additional firearms in the blind are being “used or carried” by either the apprentice or the mentor. In either case, there would be more than a single firearm being used or carried, which is against the rules.

In summary, I agree with those who advise the OP to get a determination made by a CO. If the OP gets a response, I hope he will share it, because it is obvious that others are interested in the subject.

So in a nut shell ( pun intended) On heritage day leave your gun in the car when the regular season starts have one gun in the case while the other is in use.

Sept 4th can't come soon enough

Lol so im going to be a sh% $ disturber here. How would this apply to crossbows? 1 xbow or 2

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Originally Posted by gp4ever

Lol so im going to be a sh% $ disturber here. How would this apply to crossbows? 1 xbow or 2

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This one is easy.....crossbows are firearms under the FWCA....

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Originally Posted by rick_iles

This one is easy.....crossbows are firearms under the FWCA....

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if it was that easy....LOL as to OP asked about water fowling pretty sure you can't use crossbows so the question is mute here.

Hahah, nice

I understand not for waterfowl, but other animals

I disagree, there is a regulation that says you MUST use one gun and it's the same one you are referring to: The holder of a class A1 hunter apprenticeship safety card shall not carry or use a firearm other than the single firearm that he or she is sharing with the licensed hunter under whose supervision he or she is hunting.
Why even mention single if it doesn't mean 1 gun between? Why say "share" if it really means "one of the guns designated by the mentor for use by the apprentice? This is the reg that says 1 gun and we'll find out which horse is drinking after being lead to water.
People have spoken about the intent of the law in other postings and in this case the focus is the Apprentice - it is their experience with a firearm under a mentor and not about watching someone use another firearm. Many apprentices will already have lots of time under their belt watching. This program is about them doing the hunting, there'll be plenty of time to hunt along side of them or use other firearms after they get their hunting outdoors card.

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Originally Posted by gp4ever

I understand not for waterfowl, but other animals

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At the risk of going off on a tangent here, in a nutshell....you can carry as many firearms as you want, providing the firearms are legal to use for the game, and in that WMU...except waterfowl which is federally governed.
So, I'm bow hunting for deer, I can bring a wheelbarrow full of bows with me....or moose hunting, I can have a 3006 slung over each shoulder...

The "Ask a CO" was a valuable tool for information....I hope it gets put back up... Maybe we all should send supporting messages to the MNRF !

It's ridiculous that they took that page down. In keeping with the general policy of no longer communicating with the public, I suppose.

Some of the old answers are archived here:
http://www.outdoorontario.net/AskMNR/mnrfaqgame.html

These ones may be of interest:
Question 14:
Often when I am hunting big game I bring along my 410 for partidge slung across my back. When I'm in the mood I'll sling my rifle acroos my back and the shotgun goes into my hands. My son just passed the hunter ed course and is now in the hunter apprenticship program. My question is - instead of me carrying both firearms , can he carry the 410? We'll be side by side and following the rules,just I can finally not have to carry 2 firearms.
Answer from the MNR:
Sorry ... under the apprenticeship program, you and your son are permitted one firearm between the two of you. He shares your limit ... and your gun, until he turns 15 years of age and becomes elligible to buy his own Outdoor Card and hunting licence.

Question 151:
I've read over the regs numerous times and I've heard what the kids are being taught but I'm still not clear on it. A minor or hunting apprentice age 12-14 has to share a singal firearm with the mentor. Does this mean that the mentor can only carry 1 firearm or can he be in possession of 2 or more?

Asked November 28, 2002
Answer from the MNR
Yes you are correct. The apprentice must share a single firearm with the mentor.

Question 157:
I have a question regarding the answer to question 14. I may bit a little slow to understand but it seemed like there is some discrepancy in the laws...or better said, in my understanding of them. The question was asked early and confirmed that you may in fact carry two fireams with you at one time. You are out with a youth hunter with his proper apprenticeship licensing. I thought the law said that there is to be one gun shared between the two. Does this mean that while you are supervising the youth that you are not allowed to carry a second firearm?

Asked February 9, 2003
Answer from the MNR
You are correct. If you are out hunting alone you can carry all the firearms you like as long as you are licenced for and there is an open season for your calibre/guage of firearm. There are exceptions to this rule when hunting migratory birds. When accompanying an apprentiship hunter you can only share one firearm between the two of you. This applies until he/she turns 15 and purchases his/her own Outdoors Card and hunting licence.

I trust I won't be accused of confusing the issue by posting this.

Notice the word "carry" is common in all answers !
I sent a message to the MNRF, after navigating through their new site.. Their web designer must be a grade 6 kid someplace !

Cant wait to hear back from the ministry of no results. I already know the answer, but i'll let someone else post their findings.

S.

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Originally Posted by Sinker

Cant wait to hear back from the ministry of no results. I already know the answer, but i'll let someone else post their findings.

S.

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I know the answer too. My question to the MNRF was regarding the "Ask a Co" page.....

@Sinker unless you are a CO I suggest you stop making definitive answers towards the OP as it is just as confusing as everybody else on here. Every time a reg gets argued on here the same thing happens. 5 different answers come out and everybody is sure theirs is correct. To the OP ask a real CO.... Though you may get varying answers from the CO's as well at least it came from the person that will be checking you possibly and not an arm chair CO sitting on this site with nothing to do for hours than to argue everybody else's points. Just because @Sinker is the loudest and maybe correct I wouldn't think that would hold up in the field. If you don't know ask the source not a stranger.

This site is better used for tips and sharing stories. The demonstration of Regulation knowledge on here across the board is insane and somebody that is new to hunting/fishing can easily get confused by listening to all of this.

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Originally Posted by Sudsee

This site is better used for tips and sharing stories. The demonstration of Regulation knowledge on here across the board is insane and somebody that is new to hunting/fishing can easily get confused by listening to all of this.

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This site is also a valuable tool for those who are newer to the outdoors get some insight into how regs are interpreted, and the possible outcomes.

There is literally 100s of years of experience in the field on here. Sure, there is some discussion that inevitably has some disagreement, but in many cases, someone posts a question that has a relatively simple answer. ( a recent thread where a new hunter actually thought high-brass shells were non-toxic comes immediately to mind.)

Members on these boards come from many walks of life, including law enforcement, government, and other occupations that lend themselves to the way laws and regs are written and interpreted.

With respect, don't devalue that, or it's relevance on here. You just want to read outdoor stories, get a subscription to Sporting Classics, or Grays Sporting Journal.

This is a "discussion forum", where things and viewpoints are discussed.....if everyone agreed, it would be a fan page.

Didn't say this wasn't a valuable tool for new hunters and I am not discounting the people on here that have the depth, experience, expertise and accreditation behind them to make confident, well-informed and accurate responses. This is a great site to get an interpretation of an opinion or subject but why not leave interpretation of the regulations to those that enforce it. I would love to hear from the law enforcement or government people that are on here on any of these subjects. Discussion forums are great I am a member of a few and everybody is entitled to their opinion and of course not everybody will not agree that's what makes these interesting. When looking at the Regulations/Law there is really not any opinion of interpretation that matters aside from those who enforce it.

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Originally Posted by Sudsee

Didn't say this wasn't a valuable tool for new hunters and I am not discounting the people on here that have the depth, experience, expertise and accreditation behind them to make confident, well-informed and accurate responses. This is a great site to get an interpretation of an opinion or subject but why not leave interpretation of the regulations to those that enforce it. I would love to hear from the law enforcement or government people that are on here on any of these subjects. Discussion forums are great I am a member of a few and everybody is entitled to their opinion and of course not everybody will not agree that's what makes these interesting. When looking at the Regulations/Law there is really not any opinion of interpretation that matters aside from those who enforce it.

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Actually I fit into the govt and law side of things. And several others on here do as well.

I've found that it doesn't really matter if a bad piece of legislation is written, as it's often the LEO, or the CO who simply lays the charge, and then lets the JP, or OCJ Judge make the call. Either way, good call or bad, it still costs the person who sustains the charge.

With respect to the OPs original question. I would say 2 guns, as long as one was encased and technically not being used would fall on the OK, side of the law. Just to make sure, perhaps throw a trigger lock on the one that's not in use as well, that way an over zealous CO would have a very hard time proving that it was readily accessible.

I'll shut up when someone posts the answer from a CO. I already know the answer, its the rest of the replies that are confusing.

S.

My son got his apprentice card when he was 12 years old and had it until he was 15. When he came hunting it was all about him. One gun, he carried it and he shot it. If/when he harvested game.... great, if he missed...that was okay as well. They were the best times for both of us and still the best of memories for me. Those 3 years were all about him. When he was in school and couldn't go....that was my time. It didn't matter to me what would have been legal or not as far as carrying cased guns, etc. I didn't do it because it was all about his experience, not what I could shoot. He missed lots and shot a few. That was the best of it. I think that is the intention of the system no matter what the legalities are!! When I was out without him and shot game....I was disappointed that he was not there pulling the trigger. Leave the extra gun at home and let him/her do the shooting. I think you'll feel a lot better about the experience.

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Originally Posted by redd foxx

My son got his apprentice card when he was 12 years old and had it until he was 15. When he came hunting it was all about him. One gun, he carried it and he shot it. If/when he harvested game.... great, if he missed...that was okay as well. They were the best times for both of us and still the best of memories for me. Those 3 years were all about him. When he was in school and couldn't go....that was my time. It didn't matter to me what would have been legal or not as far as carrying cased guns, etc. I didn't do it because it was all about his experience, not what I could shoot. He missed lots and shot a few. That was the best of it. I think that is the intention of the system no matter what the legalities are!! When I was out without him and shot game....I was disappointed that he was not there pulling the trigger. Leave the extra gun at home and let him/her do the shooting. I think you'll feel a lot better about the experience.

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An excellent post, while the decision on how, and when, to participate is up to each mentor to decide for themselves, and there is no right or wrong, the belief system you had for those three years is a great outlook on the situation.

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Originally Posted by Sinker

When my son and I start hunting on his apprentice license, i'll have my gun with us, encased, and unloaded. His will be locked and loaded. Once he shoots his limit, its my turn (if we're so lucky).

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Somewhat off the main point, but I see this:

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Ontario Hunter Apprenticeship Safety Program

The Hunter Apprenticeship Safety Program allows new hunters to learn from an experienced mentor. It is designed to introduce young people to hunting, but is open to any Ontario resident 12 years of age or older. To participate, you need to pass the Ontario Hunter Education Course, including exam.
When you pass the course, you’ll receive a copy of the Ontario Hunter Education Examination Report. You need to bring this to a ServiceOntario centre that provides hunting licence services to obtain your Ontario Hunter Apprenticeship Safety Card.
Hunter apprentices:

• carry their Ontario Hunter Apprenticeship Safety Card with them while hunting
• hunt under the direct and immediate supervision of a licensed mentor, 18years or older, who holds an Ontario hunting version Outdoors Card of the appropriate class (H1 or H2) and a valid hunting licence for the game being hunted
• share a firearm and a bag limit with their mentor (some exceptions)

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from here: https://www.ontario.ca/environment-a...nter-education

which seems to say (regardless of the firearm issue) that you cannot shoot two limits.
For some odd reason, I cannot follow the link to "learn more" from work.

My opinion, for what its worth, is that you must have a single firearm. The instances where you can have a second in a case are pretty explicitly spelled out. The regs even have "Single" in bold type. The old "Ask a CO" questions explictly say you are only allowed one. The intent seems clear that the apprentice is the one who is supposed to be hunting.
Not a CO, but my job is to read and interpret laws and regulations.
Maybe I am wrong. But I (personally. Do what you want) would not risk it.

[QUOTE=shazam;816693

[which seems to say (regardless of the firearm issue) that you cannot shoot two limits.
For some odd reason, I cannot follow the link to "learn more" from work.]

You have 2 limits (one each) for migratory bird only as it's a federal permit and the apprentice must purchase one. All else is a shared bag limit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shazam

For some odd reason, I cannot follow the link to "learn more" from work.

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I can, and it includes an important exception:
"Any game (except for migratory birds) taken by the Apprentice must be included in the bag limit of the Mentor."

So for migratory birds, you do get two limits. (As Quack_Kills pointed out while I was on the phone....)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by redd foxx

My son got his apprentice card when he was 12 years old and had it until he was 15. When he came hunting it was all about him. One gun, he carried it and he shot it. If/when he harvested game.... great, if he missed...that was okay as well. They were the best times for both of us and still the best of memories for me. Those 3 years were all about him. When he was in school and couldn't go....that was my time. It didn't matter to me what would have been legal or not as far as carrying cased guns, etc. I didn't do it because it was all about his experience, not what I could shoot. He missed lots and shot a few. That was the best of it. I think that is the intention of the system no matter what the legalities are!! When I was out without him and shot game....I was disappointed that he was not there pulling the trigger. Leave the extra gun at home and let him/her do the shooting. I think you'll feel a lot better about the experience.

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Wow, what a HUGE amount of replies. My question wasn't just about guns though, it was also looking for general advice and I really appreciated the quote above that, regardless of the regs, your experience was that making it 100% about the youth was the way to go... cool!

As for the whole one gun, or gun case debate - I am yet to get a response from a CO, or even any indication of who my local CO is. very dissapointing.

So my decision is thus:
When I go hunting with just my daughter, I am going to bring one gun and only she will shoot.

If we go hunting with several hunters, then we will trade off being mentors during the hunt (they have already volunteered to do this) so at any given time one of the adults will have their hands free and be totally focused on mentoring.

It seems the above is the safest approach.

IF I do get a response from a CO, I will post it.

If you go to the MNRF site, click on Applying for big game, at the end of that page, there is a "contact us" tab. Click that and type in your question. I sent one in regarding the "Ask a CO" page. Well, apparently this new method is all we have. The "Ask a CO" is no more !
I did receive a response very quickly though !