Cougars in Huntsville
http://www.muskokatodaily.com/?p=19417
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Cougars in Huntsville
http://www.muskokatodaily.com/?p=19417
Won't stop the lame bar comments ,rest assured of that .
TD
It's someone pet.Quote:
Originally Posted by COYHUNTER
And you know this how ?Quote:
Originally Posted by seabast
TD
You are dreaming.Quote:
Originally Posted by seabast
How many years do people have to see them and shoot the odd one till this "pet stuff" and "tame one got away from a zoo" keep going....But it's been 50 years of it or more so not likely to stop now.At least till the "magic box in the living room" confirms it then maybe the general population will buy in.Easy way to control the masses with media.
MNR let some mating pairs go years back to control the deer population.Kept denying it even when cougar cages were pointed out in thier budget statement...I used to date someone who was in the group back then.
And on and on.My dad's uncle shot the first coyote in Flamborough in the early 50's.And they closed all the local schools the next day when it hit the Spectator because "all the wolves were going to eat the kids".....
Same with this pet cougar stuff.So in the end does it really matter.
If you are outside much or talk to people about it you know the odd cougar is around.And if you don't like the idea or choose to believe otherwise then to each is own.
Same with Bigfoot or anything else "unconfirmed"..
Definately more plausable that there are a few around then all these people with escaped pet or zoo cougars in every town.Because most towns have had sightings....
I saw one west of London a couple of years ago right in the ditch beside the 401.High noon and stalking up on something slow.Where it came from doesn't really matter.There it was.Big as a lab,yellow,tail as long as it's body with a black tip on it,tufted ears.
No collar that said Mitsy or anything though.
I don't, just the odds.... One got shot in 2012 not too far from Huntsville, last week cougar was sun tanning in front of the crowd and was sighted in two different location the same day, kind of weird when no one can get a pictures of one for decades!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by 400bigbear
No need to get excited. I didn't say there was no wild cougar in Ontario, just saying that one is probably a pet. It's my opinion....Quote:
Originally Posted by kurt tealo
True enough and fair enough.Could be indeed.Quote:
Originally Posted by seabast
I'm not excited at all about it just go off what I have seen or others that I trust.Which does not include anything through media.
And everyone has thier own opinion and deserves one for sure.
For every one reported how many more do you think are not.We only hear a very small percentage that gets through media filters.
Personally I have seen one cougar and know of three other credible sightings through personal friends.And exactly none of them were reported.Why bother.And this is a known species.Just the debate about if they are wild or tame.
Same topic but different tangent and I am not going to highjack the thread on this but simliar with all kinds of unknown or even known species.I did mention the example with coyotes in the 50's.
And I have not myself but know personally of four credible people who say they saw a Bigfoot.And same number reported it as cougars.Zero.
Why bother.
Im of the mind its an escapee/released pet as well. I dont think this ends any arguments.
The science has already been done with DNA and available on the net.
Anytime one is sighted in and around civilization I lean towards an escapee..a wild cat would not be that close to a populated area, it would have had some exposure to humans to walk amongst us..my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by blasted_saber
.
I agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
As an aside, theres been rumours of sightings for the past couple years in the general area of these ones (besides the one that escaped and ate the guys dog a couple years ago) . I live out of town, but still officially in the Town of Huntsville. Im well versed in the local rumours lol
show me a pic caught on a trail came 20 miles from town back in the bush,,..I'll accept it's a 'wild' one......show me pic of one laying by a brick wall in a parking lot...and I'm thinking 'petting zoo'...:)
today on the news they reported a sighting in a filed near Waterloo.
I know an older gentleman near Kincardine/Wingham area, told me he has seen a cougar twice. Once about 45years ago and then one three years ago. This person has hunted and fished his entire life, never reported it. My cousin hunted his
whole life in Alberta and BC, saw one cougar in all those years, in his backyard going through his garbage can at 2 in the morning.
Show me a picture.
NOT blurry
NOT with redwood cedar or lodge pole pines in the background.
I'll say it again:
There are bazillions of trail cams all over Ontario.
They are almost all positioned to find deer.
Deer are the preferred food of the cougar.
So why has NO ONE brought forward a single CLEARLY FOCUSED pic of a cougar with trees that GROW in Ontario in the background?
Because there are NO wild cougars in Ontario!!!
I agree... but some escapees are out there for sure... just a few weeks ago (JULY?) there was one out near Coboug that was caught.. it was lounging on a deck.. sad. Why are people allowed to keep these things as pets?Quote:
Originally Posted by johny
I would start to believe in "wild" cougars if there was any evidence of a breeding population. Reliable pictures of juveniles for example. Until then, I will remain a skeptic.
Oh, I've seen a cougar too by the way. Jumped it while deer hunting just north of Bobcaygeon. I almost got laughed out of deer camp for telling the guys the story when I got back in. Still don't believe it was part of a wild, breeding population though.
The MNR released cougars to control the deer population? Don't think so. If you were trying to hide a "conspiracy", would you actually refer to a cage as a "cougar cage"? Wouldn't it be smarter to just budget for a "mid-sized cage"? I heard they've also released rattlesnakes to reduce the number of turkey eggs...Quote:
Originally Posted by kurt tealo
Do the math.Quote:
Originally Posted by johny
Ontario is roughly 12 million people. So 1/4 of those would be men, how many of them are hunters, how many of them have property for game camera's. How many deer tags sold each year (100,000?), and how many of those to people with cams. If we take the GTA out of the equation Ontario has a population of roughly 6million.
Ontario is also 1,000,000 square KMs (415,000 sq miles).
Ontario has a population of 12million so that a pop density of 12 per sq km or 30 people per sq mile.
Of we take the GTA out of the equation thats roughly a density of 6 per sq mile.
Even "if" there were 415,000 game cams out there (highly doubt), thats still just 1 gam cam every sq mile. Good luck. Realistically, the Game Cams that are out there (what ever number) they are highly concentrated in area's where wild cougars wouldnt hang around.
Cougars also have huge ranges, are extremely elusive and aren't social, they are solitary. Are so hard to find, even in area's where there are lots, they are hunted with dogs to track and tree them.
1 wild cougar could be in an area the size of Algonquin Park and it would be like finding a needle in a very large haystack.
By comparison
Montanna is 150,000 sq miles,
Montanna has 1mm people.
Pop Density of 6/sq mile (very close to Ontarios if we exclude the GTA)
One quarter the size of Ontario and while the pop density is lower (the vast majority of Ontarians live in the south, so its possible, that once north of say APP, Ontario has a lower pop density)
Montanna has an estimated population of 1,000 cougars. Way more hunters/outdoors people, way more better wildlife management (DNR vs MNR) and budgets for researchers and more, and probably more game cams.
While pics and proof are "fairly" common, it aint easy and not as common as vanilla ice cream. 1000 Cougars in an area 1/4 the size of Ontario and its not every day one is caught on camera.
Ontario is HUGE and most of it is uninhabited. The are stupid huge amounts of land that would be very attractive indeed to cougars and no people.……Lets just play a little what if. What if there are wild cougars ( I believe there are).
say 100 of them (and I might be generous).
100 Cougars in a haystack the size of Ontario or 1 Cougar per 4,200 sq mile (415,000 / 100)
1,0000 Cougars in a haystack the size of Montanna or 1 Cougar per 150 sq mile ( 150,000 / 1,000)
If there are 50 Cougars in Ontario thats 1 cougar somewhere within 8500 sq miles.
Good luck.
Yeah there are tons of people in the south. And stupid amounts of deer hunters. That aint where wild cougars would roam. How many wolves or Lynx are there in Ontario (lots!!!!), how often are they caught on Camera? There have been escapees "caught" in areas where theres a lot of people. Have they been caught on camera?
There are Cougars pretty much everywhere around us (W,E and S). Does Ontario which has great habitat and climate for them and plenty of game. Unlike Montanna which is open range, Ontario is deep bush. Is huge and sparesly populated ( Cougars don't like people) have some kind of poison in the air, or walls up?
That's always been my argument/opinion, there are likely cougars in Ontario, but they would be in the huge vastness away from civilization so they go unseen. I would expect to see a 'wild' sighting closer to LongLac long before I would in Huntsville.
GW11 makes a good point, if they had moved into our populated areas, you'd see more signs of breeding pairs and you'd be having more of them picked up on trail cams. As you point out JBen....there are lots of trail cams in the bush concentrated closer to 'civilization', not to mention everyone has a camera attached to there hip nowadays, so if the wild ones were hanging around there were be more evidence of them being here.
Mathematically, statistically speaking its pretty easy to see they can be here and not ever seen/found. They are just W, SW, S and E of Ontario…..
Heres in numbers?
Highly unlikely.
There could be one in APP and no one would ever know. Now think about all the crown between Lake of the Woods and Temagami
Cougars are photo shy, unless the shading is just right or they can have their images airbrushed later.
Bubbles had Steve French at Sunnyvale, how could they also not live in the wilds of southern ontario, there's a lot of strange species in that region particularly the closer you get to the GTA and suburbia !
And you base this on what proof?Quote:
Originally Posted by johny
Why do you think all are reported and every picture taken is brought forth?As for cougars I saw one once and three other people that I know.Various places and years apart.And exactly zero of them were reported.Why bother.So everyone can say it was another escaped pet.Since it must be pretty common in Ontario for people to have them as pets it seems.
Guess the Ontario Puma Association that knows of den sites is following all escaped pets.Check them out on the net.
Met three people in my life who said they saw a Bigfoot to.And zero of them reported that.Why bother.Just to be called crazy.
My dad's uncle shot the first recorded coyote in Flamborough in the 50's.Decided to call the Spectator and they put a big article and picture in the next day.So the town closed all the schools the next day because all the parents were worried that the "wolves would eat all the kids"......Because now suddenly that the "paper said it was true"....I guess we have a real problem or animal here....
You have met some Gov Employees right?......Oh I am sure they only posted it as that...once.Quote:
Originally Posted by GW11
I will go with the person I know that read it/was there at the meeting/audit.And if most disagree so be it.Doesn't matter to me in the least if they are tame or wild.Have been hearing this stuff for 40 years and at least now they admit it's a real cougar that people are seeing.Not a mistaken identity or crazy person.And some may still think that which is fine to.
You are sure that the recent one on Manitoulin Island was fake or a pet?Lots of deer there.Certainly was a cougar in the picture/video.Quote:
Originally Posted by johny
Off topic a little but are there cougars in Manitoba?
Manitoba: Yes
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/loc...263130391.html
Quebec: yes
http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/...8-6c83363e3975
Michigan: Yes
http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/mammals/cougar/index.html
Eastern Seaboard/Eastern US: yes
Whats at question and what the DNR says, is that they believe the Eastern Puma is extinct and those being seen, reported and found are subspecies and transients.
http://www.fws.gov/northeast/ECougar...easefinal.html
So if pretty much every area around us with a land link is saying, yep we have "some"...Are there walls around Ontario we don't know about. Cougars have huge ranges.
So Basically what guys are saying is that....
If a bear, coyote, moose, deer, wolf ect ect ect is seen near civilization / residential areas, chances are those animals are escaped pets?!?!
LOL
There was a pair of cougars that were in south Calgary, in fact one was shot in South Center Hospital. So wild cougar does come into populated.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
I've seen 2 now. On was just outside Lakefield, and I know of a local coyote hunter who has seen the same one twice. The second cougar I saw was in Kaladar.
In a study of cougar sightings in Oregon, a state that 5,000 cougars call home, only seven per cent were proven, in fact, to be of cougars, Rosatte says. And that is in a place with a large and healthy cougar population.
So when you compare Oregon to Ontario
Sq km
Ontario: 1,100,000 sq km
Oregon: 255,000 sq km
Pop
Ontario: 12,500,000
Oregon: 4,000,000
Density
Ontario: 12 per sq km
Oregon: 15 per sq km
Cougars
Ontario: A few dozen, maybe tops 100
Oregon: 5,000
To put it into perspective if there were 20,000 (in reality less than 100) Cougars in Ontario, it would be "similar" to Oregon which is still far less dense with respect to brush/deep forest.
We are looking for hard concrete proof, the proverbial golden needle in a haystack, the size of a few 747s
I would think it would be pretty easy to pull claws out of a dead one before the media were "allowed" to see it...
Presto!Another escaped pet!
Some ex cops and military guys have some good stories.Years later when they are "allowed" to speak freely.
About better stuff then cougars.But some cougar stories to.
I survived a cougar attack in Ontario. First time admitting it. Awful experience.
Any idea how many pet cougars are in Ontario? A dozen? a hundred ? more ? Is a cougar something any moron with enough money can own or are there rules?
Yup and Nope.....remember that fiasco with the Ikea Monkey....the was lots of media coverage about the lack of rules to buy, sell and trade exotic pets here in Ontario..ergo why they are often found walking around the burbs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter John
Adding to the same thought is there must be pet tigers and lions as well no ? Yet I only remember 1 tiger story of one escaping from a small zoo a few years ago not the frequent " I saw a cougar " story that comes out every couple of months.
My boss used to have a cougar as a pet he sold it to his neighbour who also owned a tiger.The neighbour was killed a few years back by his "pet" tiger that he used to let wander his property not sure what became of the cougar.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter John
Can't say they don't exist in ontario but My thinking would be more north west ? But I'm not a biologist ! Only ever saw 1 but that was outside of Whitehorse in 95. The RR / Their MNR wanted to Know of sighting's so I called it in and the first question they asked was were you drinking? … LOL Said nope heading home after my on duty evening shift at the fish farm, saw it in front of me 5yd's on the lane way out. Explained the animal to them all they said was yup that's what you saw they are coming up following the deer from BC.
Well, when is the last time you heard about a wolf seating in the middle of a parking lot looking at the crowd? Or having a good time between the north and southbound line of the hwy. 11 in the middle of the day?Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffBondar
As a matter of fact yes, I do know a few government employees. Some work at the MNR. They would probably get quite a chuckle at the idea of a secret cougar-releasing conspiracy. While I agree with you that cougars are here, either a breeding population or repeated sightings of the same few escapees, I'll never buy into the idea that they were released by the MNR. It's been long established, worldwide for that matter, that introducing (or in this case re-introducing) a predator species to control a prey species just doesn't work the way it's supposed to. The predator generally finds a prey species that is a little easier to catch than the intended species and you end up unintentionally wiping out that species. This is a more common problem when you are trying to control an invasive, non-native species but the idea is the same. It's called biological pest control. What if the released cougars decided that livestock was a far easier target than white-tailed deer?Quote:
Originally Posted by kurt tealo
This is kind of going against your own argument. If only 7% of sightings are legitimate in a place where there is a healthy cougar population, where you would think people might actually know what a cougar looks like, what is that saying about cougar sightings in Ontario? You have the uninformed masses from the GTA (no disrespect to those on here from the area who are obviously not part of this group), where most couldn't differentiate a barn cat from a cougar to begin with, vacationing all summer up in the Muskokas and the Haliburton Highlands. Guess where most cougar sightings come from? I would say you would be hard pressed to believe even 1% of the sightings in Ontario based on that Oregon data. People see what they want to see. Same with UFO's, Bigfoot, Loch Ness, you name it.Quote:
Originally Posted by kurt tealo
If you want to be even more generous than JBen's estimate of 100 animals. Let's say 200. You are talking one cougar for every 5000 sq km in Ontario. Considering a cougar's home range is from 150 to about 1200 sq km on the extreme end, how do they ever "hook up" to make more cougars? Yes, I realize that there would be a "central area" where the breeding poplulation is most dense, but I'm not buying into the idea that it's in the cottage capital of Ontario (where most sightings are), otherwise there would be pictures and sightings of juveniles. There could be a wild, breeding population of a hundred or two hundred in a remote corner of NW Ontario, but they are not going to account for the sightings in Huntsville and Cobourg.
The bottom line is, we don't really know. The argument that they are here and are truly wild is much easier to be proven right than wrong. My argument can really only be proven wrong.
http://www.thestar.com/news/ontario/...n_ontario.html ......conversation over
this article is 4 years old and the MNR still doesn't think there is any so the fight is still on!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobermanhunter
You would think with all the trail cams out there, we'd see a lot more...they must be hanging out with Bigfoot
Shocked this didn't end the argument.:scream:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter John
I stand corrected....cougars fall under the 'endangered species act'..so for them there are a few rules to having in captivity..Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
Quote:
Norris did state, "the cougar is listed under the Endangered Species Act so there are some rules and regulations if somebody could keep that and the purpose as to why they would want to keep it."
An alarming percentage of people believe we have been visited by aliens.
four years old or not, while the numbers aren't concrete there still hear and unless some one is going to go all across Ontario foot by foot in every direction I see no reason why they couldn't be here, its beyond reasonable doubt to believe they would be here as everywhere surrounding this province has them.
And why would the MNR secretly release cougars? To control the deer? ---Why would they do that, when they could give out more antler less tags, extend the seasons and sell additional deer tags at $30 - $40 a pop? Maybe it was to control the fishers and rattlesnakes that they secretly released. Sorry man…. it doesn't add up. Help me out here.
There has been CONFIRMED reports by the MNR just a few years ago of cougar scat found near the Niagara peninsula. Biologists found actual cougar hair in the scat, not mention tracks of a full sized cat and a cub in the same area. Cannot remember the name (someone help me out here) a large tract of land MNR past Calendonia near Lake Erie where tracks were found and confirmed by the MNR. I met a former CO couple of years back and he told me the only regret he had was that in all his years he never saw a cougar. When I asked him his position on the topic was he said he believed 100% that Ontario had a wild self sustaining population of big cats from the evidence he had seen over the years. A friend of mine once owned a cougar back in the late 80's told me today it is virtually impossible to purchase one today.
Nice post GW, though I think (could be wrong) what is meant, is that if a state with 5,000 of them, only confirms 7% of all reported sightings. That speaks to just how elusive they are. So in Oregon where theres a strong pop of Cougars, its still not every day that "hard" proof is acquired.
Quite agree this could rage on for years before hard proof of wild Cougars here in Ontario is gotten.
When you split their ranges and call it 500km. One Cougar (they are solitary) could travel over a really large area. When you consider how large Ontario is…………..
Its easy for the "naysayers" there are none, because that hard proof is still missing.
Until you do the math.
The MNR can't even tell us how many Moose they are.
*****************
Personally I think its just a matter of time. Everyone has cell phones these days, everyone wants that hard proof. It might come from a game camera but I doubt it.
There aren't enough owned to blanket an area thats 1200 sq km….let alone 5,000 to 8,000 sq km hoping to catch that one cougar that "might" be in that 8,000 sq km.
Algonquin Park if I'm not mistaken is 8,000 sq km. Even if we fenced it, dropped a Cougar in there. Good luck finding it.
How many people go missing in Ontario and are never found? Or their remains are found 20 years later. How many planes go down and aren't found? And those are planes and the search area's pretty small…(a handful of sq km vs thousands)…People get "lost" all the time, and aren't always found…Cougars are way, way way harder to find, can cover hundreds of kms in no time, than a little ol human who strayed off the trail or whose canoe washes up on shore somewhere.
[QUOTE=GW11;824200]As a matter of fact yes, I do know a few government employees. Some work at the MNR. They would probably get quite a chuckle at the idea of a secret cougar-releasing conspiracy., I'll never buy into the idea that they were released by the MNR. It's been long established, worldwide for that matter, that introducing (or in this case re-introducing) a predator species to control a prey species just doesn't work the way it's supposed to.
Oh I didn't say it was a good idea or that it would work.And had it not come from a pretty reliable source I would have not mentioned it.She even quoted how many and the year and some release sites.But I can't remember all that now.
Puma Ontario knows of some den sites but they won't say where.
Questionable ideas happen all the time in Gov and the MNR.....
They stock salmon off breakwalls not up rivers where they can return and spawn,throw trout stocking in ditches,cancell spring bear hunts,protect wolves around Algonquin,cut Wardens,increase people and areas that dont have to follow fish and game laws,steel shot for doves,to many deer tags,not enough Moose tags and so on.
And transplant game like Elk,Turkey,Moose,pheasants and such.So cougars?Maybe.Maybe not.
And yes some of these ideas can be argued a success.
Quote-Oregon-"This is kind of going against your own argument-"
The point was-Some people seem to think if there are more then an escaped pet or two around we should all be seeing them.Well if they come up with a number of 7% from a known healthy population.Then very few people are going to see them around here if there aren't many around.Which there are not.
So maybe they are moving in like we have seen bears and Moose do.And historically they were once native here way back they say.Back when my dad was a kid in Flamborough there were no geese,very few deer,no turkeys,no coyotes.And now.....
Maybe something to the MNR bit.
Might be the odd escaped pet.But I buy that idea the least when you start to see the frequency and number of years that this has been going on.45 or more that I have heard the odd tale.And they guess that 10% of sighting are actually reported.
We are the only planet of millions with life?Have sent people to the moon but no one else can?Off topic I know.Quote:
Originally Posted by kickingfrog
Good points but upping tags gets all the antis screaming which out number us to politicians.Hunting and car accidents are the best weapons down here and they dont love either publically.Weather is to mild and I don't think coyotes get that many.To small and dont hunt in packs as much as wolves.Up North the winters and Timber wolves do just a fine job of keeping them down.And less vehicles driving around to hit them and get insurance companies screaming and rates high.Quote:
Originally Posted by Larson
Oh sure it's a stretch and I would not have come up with that one on my own.But thats what I heard for what it is.
When MNR releases turkeys and elk or stocks fish its done to sell licenses as much as re-establish extirpated species. These animals in effect pay for themselves. MNR wouldnt make a penny off of cougars. Their budget is shrinking every year. Where are they finding funds to support this? Releasing cougars would be an enormous expense.
We see road kill all the time, moose, bear, deer, wolves, fox, coons, bunnies, skunks ect ect ect. Are we to assume that theses animals are all pets and were waiting by the roadside to be picked up by their owners after enjoying some fresh air?Quote:
Originally Posted by seabast
Wild animals interact with people all the time. I find the exception to be when you are actually hunting for them :-)
She didnt say it was to make money or increase any populations.Just the opposite.And they did it "once".And years ago when cutbacks were not as severe.Or so the story goes.Quote:
Originally Posted by blasted_saber
Good points.See lots of coyotes,deer,moose and bears standing by the road.The odd wolf even.Don't think any of them are escaped pets.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffBondar
Seen one in 93 while hunting moose in Kirkland lake area crossing logging road right after a heavy rain.
I hunt in wainfleet, niagara. Last year me and my apprentice walked into our spot at 5ish am and from the corner of my eye I spotted what looked like a cougar. It was crouched down hidden behind a fallen tree and all that I could see were these big eyes staring back at us. With My headlamp facing him I slowly walked away and I could see his head adjusting to my position to get a better look. My apprentice deuced in his pants poor guy and he's never wanted to go back since. I went back in the afternoon to find huge cat prints and turkey feathers and carcass right in that same area. I've hunted many times there since and haven't seen anything out of the ordinary no prints neither.........
Personally in any of these topics cougars and past that. I would rather go with what credible people have heard or seen.Or what I have heard or seen.
Or what some research or discussion with field level people brings back.
Then just screaming "can't be"!..from the living room.......
Or just what filtered media says is true.Alarming how often both happen.
No better way to control the mindset of the general population than that.And is neccesary is some cases and topics for sure.What have all the urban people scream if any of these things are said to be true?They are still trying to get over that coyotes exist in Toronto. And yes even come in the city just like snowstorms and natural disasters without the army there to shoot them on sight.
All the farmers wanting payouts for livestock once proven?Political caos?Religious arguments of creation vrs evolution and on and on.
Political suicide admitting anything to the contrary or giving out any money or grants for much research.All the Bigfoot guys are on thier own dime.Or some limited school funding and mocked by thier peers.The odd interested millionaire will pitch in.Like the BFRO crap on "Finding Bigfoot" TV show.I met some guys that actually have been out them that think some of the best stuff is withheld.
World was once flat right guys?......We all know that right guys!!.....Who would think anything but.....
They are still discovering new things every day that they actually tell us about.
And the plan is still working very well.Look how this discussion goes back and forth and we are all hunters.And everyone has good points on both sides and entitled to thier own opinion.
Can you imagine this thread with the general population included or 1000 urban people from Toronto....
I like the "get out of the box" and "keep an open mind" about all possibilities.But I could be wrong for sure.
Sorry to get off topic and ramble.Kind of related in a way though.
Life "out there" is more likely then not, but to suggest that we've been visited is altogether a different matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by kurt tealo
No one is saying Ontario has no cougars. What we are arguing is the existence of a wild, self sustaining population. No one has come even close to proving that. We barely have credible reports of adult cougars, we have NO reports at all of kittens.
..and that it's unlikely a true 'wild' one would be found hanging around in a populated area...Quote:
Originally Posted by blasted_saber
I spoke to a wildlife biologist last year who said that we better hope that the MNR does not confirm that there are cougars in Ontario. He said that they are protected under the Endangered Species Act and under that Act it is unlawful to damage or alter any of their habitat. If the habitat area is the whole Province of Ontario that could place all kinds of restrictions on some or all the land in the Province. Restrictions on logging, building of new roads etc.
I say we should all round up our guns and hit the woods... lets shoot it up until we get a carcass... it'll be like that seen from Jaws I when all those fishermen head out like madmen to catch the shark eating the folks on the beach. It'll be a blast (no pun intended)
bthunter,
Thats an interesting point. They are on the endangered and that could create a bit of a mess politically.
Some have said there are no Cougars, period. Many said that up until the first escapee was caught. Personally I have no trouble "accepting" the possibility/likelyhood of wild ones. Breeding and self sustaining…Harder to credit. My thinking is that because they are solitary and because they can range very far indeed. As urban sprawl continues, especially to the South and SW (The states, and MI) where they have been found….Like bears are ranging further and further here (for different reasons), they are ranging further away…..and Ontario would look very nice indeed to the odd Cougar that travels into it. A place to stay and call home.
Heres an interesting thought. A handful of years ago, the first "real" proof was acquired. That being scat, presumably tracks if they found scat (and DNA) somewhere around the Niagara region if Im not mistaken.
Im getting old and my memory isn't the steel trap it used to be.
But I don't recall any cat ever being caught.
So they had "proof" (scat and tracks)...and they had an area to zero in on…………………
Escapee? One might think that an escapee thats somewhat domesticated, might hang around, get caught……..And yet
Here today, gone tomorrow, never to be seen or caught
I once saw Sasquatch at a truck stop taking a leak on a truckers' wheel well... then it farted.
Ahhh, but unlike Sasquatch Splaker.
A) Cougars are very real. At least the last time I checked in with reality they are an actual thing
B) We do have proof they are here..Scat, DNA, tracks.
When you factor in their behaviors (solitary, elusive, avoidance of mankind, huge range)
When you factor in they have been found all around us
When you factor in just how huge Ontario is, and how sparsely populated it is….
Here we go . The lame comments will start . Well done .Quote:
Originally Posted by Splaker
TD
This map clearly shows the range of the cougar albeit in a severely reduced population. Not surprising that there may be one or two wild ones around the area, just not in a large quantity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cougar
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...e_map_2010.png
Prob. an escapee from the Muskoka Wildlife Center, a stone's throw from Mary lake Rd., on Hwy 11. They have/had cougars there. Anyone know if it's still open?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 400bigbear
I was just having a bit of fun ;)
I do think there are cougar populations in Ontario. But who knows if it's a viable breeding pop. I somehow doubt it. I think someone else pointed out the lengths they will go to travel outside their ranges.. even thousands of KM from what I've heard.. maybe this is what we're getting.."strays" ?
Does anyone remember the story out of Sunnydale? It's west of Barrie. Two hikers claimed they were "stalked" by more than one cougar - a mother and cubs, apparently. They heard a very high pitched sound (which is what cubs make) and saw eyes and flashes of their bodies in the underbrush... it happened in a county forest in 2012
Yeah, agree Splaker.
To me, anyways that might be the key point. Their range, which has been reported to be up to 1,000km.
Says to me, its highly likely we will get transients who come.......and go....
And some few that may decide our wilderness which offers everything a cougar may want...not the least of which is a very easy ability to remain unseen away from man, thanks to the remoteness and deep bush...a place to hang a hat and call home.
Odd that Florida still has a breeding population of them and we don't? How does a state that is heavily developed, both agriculture and urban, hold on to a cougar pop??
Quote:
Originally Posted by impact
No worries Splaker :D. I just get a bit crusty since often or most cougar threads disintigrate into BS although this one and another seem to be holding their own for a change . Personally I believe they exist here and always have and never were extinct . It also makes sense they would migrate north from the states and also from western Canada . It wasn't that long ago deer were not seen around Dryden , Kenora,Thunderbay areas either but now there is . These are also areas that are getting cougar sightings . Old lads around used to speak of one being shot on the outskirts of Katrine by a fella by the name of Horace Benn in the 60's . All in the area went to see it . Nobody is going to tell me that was a release . Everybody was too busy looking after their homesteads then and #11 was just a bit better than a goat path circling around Little Doe Lake . No Zoo .
TD
Wow, interesting story... any way of confirming that? We are much better at tracking and recording events these days what with all the cameras, internet, etc... one day one will be caught on a cam, I'm sure... still, some will think it's an escapee, an it may very well be... I suppose we need to finding a breeder.. momma a cubsQuote:
Originally Posted by 400bigbear
Well consider this. In just the past 10 years.
Cormorants are coming back with a vengeance.
Osprey and Eagles.<<As a kid I don't ever recall seeing any
Bears
Wolves
Yotes
Just about 4 years ago, a jaguar was spotted and tracked outside Pheonix...Where once people thought they were gone forever.
And yet, for inexplicable reason many think wild Cougars here are an impossibility.
I can't get a confirmation likely because all are dead now but I sure remember the talk about it even by Horace himself . All from Katrine , Orange valley etc viewed it . Would not be a lie . I'll ask Vic Northcote . He might remember still .Quote:
Originally Posted by Splaker
TD
I can't believe this thread has lasted 8 pages without going "sideways." LOL
Spoke to soon... ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
I did see some alien comments in here.. Somewhere.. I admit though.. I haven't read all 8 pages...
True and about time . It should actually be serious to all , and of interest, because learning should not be a mockery .Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
TD
topher behave yourself ;). LOL I know it's tough but the moose gods will smile on you if you do . ;) I talked to them .:thumbup:Quote:
Originally Posted by topher
TD
Everglades. good hideout!Quote:
Originally Posted by Splaker
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_panther
The Florida panther is an endangered subspecies of cougar (Puma concolor) that lives in forests and swamps of southern Florida in the United States. Its current taxonomic status (Puma concolor coryi or Puma concolor couguar) is unresolved, but recent genetic research alone does not alter the legal conservation status. This species is also known as the cougar, mountain lion, puma, and catamount; but in the southeastern United States and particularly Florida, it is exclusively known as the panther. Florida Panthers are usually found in pinelands, hardwood hammocks, and mix swamp forests.
Males can weigh up to 160 pounds (73 kg)[3] and live within a range that includes the Big Cypress National Preserve, Everglades National Park, and the Florida Panther National Wildlife Refuge.[4] This population, the only unequivocal cougar representative in the eastern United States, currently occupies 5% of its historic range. In the 1970s, there were an estimated 20 Florida panthers in the wild, and their numbers have increased to an estimated 100 to 160 as of 2011.[5] In 2013, it was reported that there are only 160 Florida panthers in the wild.[6]
In 1982, the Florida panther was chosen as the Florida state animal.[7]
Great info...
Quote:
Originally Posted by impact
I still find it hard to believe that with all the bear hunters across Ontario that one hasn't shown up on a camera yet!
Quote:
Originally Posted by redd foxx
Probably a lot more deer and moose hunters, no? You'd figure one would show on a trail cam... Still, if there are only a couple of hundred (and proably less) in the prov., you could see why it hasn't happened.. Wolves are very numerous in the province (tens of thousands I think) and we don't see them that often on the cams.
Not that hard to believe, in the past 5 years we (10-12 guys per year) have taken double digit moose and only saw 2 deer and no bears in an area where there are suppose to be more deer then moose and a tonne of bears.Quote:
Originally Posted by redd foxx
Years ago while on vacation in Naples Florida I really enjoyed hiking the wild places around the community we stayed in. It was a typical golf course with condo's but it was on the edge of 600 acres of wilderness with lots of deer and at least one cougar. On one of my hikes I had seen a few palm rats a couple of black racer's (snakes) even a pair of otters playing in a pond.
Any way I came across a set of cougar tracks in a sandy area that were pretty fresh and although I never saw the big cat I consider it one of my outdoor highlights.
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j1...florida058.jpg
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j1...florida059.jpg
Photobucket wont let me hotlink, oh well
There was one from Manitoulin Island.Think it was this summer.Was in the paper/link.Quote:
Originally Posted by redd foxx
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j1...florida058.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by Hunter John
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j1...florida059.jpg
Weird that it won't let you hot link.
Thanks species.