Health Clearances

I've never been clear on the recommended requirements for the different gun dog breeds.

Seems to me that the retriever folk have done the best job on researching what is essential. I've never seen anything much for setters, hounds or spaniels. I'd like to learn about this more.

example for a retriever:

OFA good LR-208742G27M-VPI and elbows normal LR-EL63044M27-VPI. His eyes have been certified as normal by an ophthalmologist CAER #166703(currently awaiting certificate from CERF). Milli is OFA excellent LR-208527E24F-VPI and elbows normal LR-EL62879F24-VPI. Eyes are normal CAER #166716 (awaiting certificate from CERF).

Not "gun dog" related, but I hear some breeders are adding thyroid? A CHIC number is nice to have as well.

http://www.caninehealthinfo.org/breeds.html

These are the health checks from my pups parents (Rotties). All the important one's for this breed.

Dad:
Hips: OFA RO-70323G24M-PI GOODElbows: OFA RO-EL7326M24-PI NORMAL Cardiac: RO-CA3526/12M/C-PI NORMALEyes: CERF RO-6349 OFA DNA Long Coat-Negative CHIC#: 60242


Mom:

​Hips: OFA RO-72592G24F-VPI GOOD Elbows: RO-EL8718F24-VPI NORMALCardiac: RO-CA5008/17F/C-VPI NORMAL Eyes: CERF RO-7373 CHIC#: 81658

Hungarian Vizslas:
Basic:
-Hips
-Eyes
Additional:
-Elbows (more so currently now as Vizslas are cropping up with this issue)
-Heart
-Thyroid (seeing more of this, some breeders won't breed unless sire/dam is tested)
(I don't know if there is a test for these:
-Epilepsy
-Von Willebrand's (bleeding disorder)
-Cranial muscular atrophy
Optional:
-Brucellosis before breeding

I believe the testing is necessary and important. Vizslas are still experiencing hip dysplasia and eye problems such as entropion are existent and these dogs should NOT be in a breeding program. Our breed is seeing elbow issues coming into the light now (or just more breeders/owners are admitting their dog has it). I haven't heard of prevelant heart issues in our breed, so I would forgo that test. As far as thyroid goes, it is just a snapshot of that moment of testing. My biitch could have been bred at the time when her test came back for normal thyroid....tests later on indicated thyroid problem. So that one is iffy.
We don't hear as much about epilepsy or Von Willebrand's now as I recall doing 16 years ago when I first came onto the Vizsla scene. What our breed is seeing in Vizslas in the UK is cranial muscular atrophy - very very sad suffering fate for the dog.

The 2 issues in our breed that SO MANY breeders and owners are hiding is allergies and cancers. I hear rumours all the time that various puppies down certain lines are repeatedly being struck by allergies or cancers and those dams and sires are still being used, as are their offspring and their offspring and so forth. This is a touchy subject from various folks I've discussed it with. No one wants to admit their dog has it, no one wants to admit they breed dogs with it and no one seems to care to correct it.

Didnt know there was a test for epilepsy I have heard they are close to finding a genetic marker but no test ??

3blkdogs - no there isn't ( i wrote my reply so fast thought I separated my lines and even said i didn't think there was a test for epilepsy or cranial muscular atrophy).

CHIC is a good starting point for researching what health tests to do for what breed. They work with the parent clubs of each breed to determine the issues of greatest concern for that breed and then recommend the applicable health tests as well as diagnostic requirements. Most of the AKC breeds are listed.

Like maplevizsla touched on, no health test is perfect and each has a different limit to their value. Some are just a snapshot (like thyroid) but I personally feel it's part of my due diligence to test and build up a catalogue of results for my breeding dogs. If something like a thyroid issue were to appear in my line at least I would have the peace of mind of knowing that I researched and tested as best I could. Re-testing can also be valuable.

It costs about $400-$500 to complete the testing requirements for a CHIC # for a Weim (hips, eyes, thyroid) + $80 for the 2 recommended DNA tests (HUU & HYPM).

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Originally Posted by NorthLinkWeims

It costs about $400-$500 to complete the testing requirements for a CHIC # for a Weim (hips, eyes, thyroid) + $80 for the 2 recommended DNA tests (HUU & HYPM).

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And people complain or don't understand about the premium price of pups (within reason of course). You get what you pay for and the breeder is usually only breaking even, or recovering some financial losses because they do it for the love and betterment of the breed.
Often times backyard bred pups on kijiji are priced higher than proper, ethically bred pups with full health clearances, so go figure.


Just finding an ethical breeder that does all of this testing is tough enough.

Sorry, sidetracked a little there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NorthLinkWeims

CHIC is a good starting point for researching what health tests to do for what breed. They work with the parent clubs of each breed to determine the issues of greatest concern for that breed and then recommend the applicable health tests as well as diagnostic requirements. Most of the AKC breeds are listed.

Like maplevizsla touched on, no health test is perfect and each has a different limit to their value. Some are just a snapshot (like thyroid) but I personally feel it's part of my due diligence to test and build up a catalogue of results for my breeding dogs. If something like a thyroid issue were to appear in my line at least I would have the peace of mind of knowing that I researched and tested as best I could. Re-testing can also be valuable.

It costs about $400-$500 to complete the testing requirements for a CHIC # for a Weim (hips, eyes, thyroid) + $80 for the 2 recommended DNA tests (HUU & HYPM).

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Thanks very much.

Brucellosis is NOT optional, its REQUIRED.
Even AI clinics will not draw or inseminate without a current Brucellosis test.
The disease was all but eradicated in North America until the "Louisiana Rescues" were shipped around North America and now its everywhere.
There is a test for VWD.
No test for epilepsy, just a tonne of leg work and pedigree checking to do your best to avoid it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by maplevizsla

Hungarian Vizslas:
Basic:
-Hips
-Eyes
Additional:
-Elbows (more so currently now as Vizslas are cropping up with this issue)
-Heart
-Thyroid (seeing more of this, some breeders won't breed unless sire/dam is tested)
(I don't know if there is a test for these:
-Epilepsy
-Von Willebrand's (bleeding disorder)
-Cranial muscular atrophy
Optional:
-Brucellosis before breeding

I believe the testing is necessary and important. Vizslas are still experiencing hip dysplasia and eye problems such as entropion are existent and these dogs should NOT be in a breeding program. Our breed is seeing elbow issues coming into the light now (or just more breeders/owners are admitting their dog has it). I haven't heard of prevelant heart issues in our breed, so I would forgo that test. As far as thyroid goes, it is just a snapshot of that moment of testing. My biitch could have been bred at the time when her test came back for normal thyroid....tests later on indicated thyroid problem. So that one is iffy.
We don't hear as much about epilepsy or Von Willebrand's now as I recall doing 16 years ago when I first came onto the Vizsla scene. What our breed is seeing in Vizslas in the UK is cranial muscular atrophy - very very sad suffering fate for the dog.

The 2 issues in our breed that SO MANY breeders and owners are hiding is allergies and cancers. I hear rumours all the time that various puppies down certain lines are repeatedly being struck by allergies or cancers and those dams and sires are still being used, as are their offspring and their offspring and so forth. This is a touchy subject from various folks I've discussed it with. No one wants to admit their dog has it, no one wants to admit they breed dogs with it and no one seems to care to correct it.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by last5oh_302

And people complain or don't understand about the premium price of pups (within reason of course). You get what you pay for and the breeder is usually only breaking even, or recovering some financial losses because they do it for the love and betterment of the breed.
Often times backyard bred pups on kijiji are priced higher than proper, ethically bred pups with full health clearances, so go figure.


Just finding an ethical breeder that does all of this testing is tough.

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Ding, ding, ding! Thumbs up! :-)

English pointer health clearances .... none.

Due to proper breeding combined with proper culling.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jakezilla

English pointer health clearances .... none.

Due to proper breeding combined with proper culling.

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No hip or eye clearances by those breeding English pointers?

First let let me say, I know labs I do not know pointers, but I thought I had read that hip dysplasia and PRA were potential health issues with pointers?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dakota Creek

No hip or eye clearances by those breeding English pointers? Thought hip dysplasia and PRA were potential health issues with pointers?

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PRA?

They do hips for English setters occasionally, but for English pointers there are no commonly performed health clearances. There are some issues with the breed like ACl issues and a possible prevalence of cancer in certain lines but nothing you can really test for.

I don't about English pointers but "German shorthaired pointers are relatively free of any common health issues, but the GSPCA does recommend health clearances for a few rare ailments like hip dysplasia, progressive retinal atrophy and cone degeneration."

"The English Setter, which has an average lifespan of 10 to 12 years, is prone to major health issues such as elbow dysplasia, deafness, hypothyroidism, and canine hip dysplasia (CHD). It is also prone to epilepsy, Osteochondrosis Dissecans (OCD) and progressive retinal atrophy (PRA). To identify some of these issues, a veterinarian may recommend thyroid, hearing, elbow, hip, and eye exams for the dog."

What this means for the field setter , I don't know.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jakezilla

PRA?

They do hips for English setters occasionally, but for English pointers there are no commonly performed health clearances.

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You can't find what you don't look for.

According to the statistics on OFAs website, 8% of pointers tested are displastic. More shockingly though is that in the history of OFA only 1,615 pointers have been tested for hip displaysia even though the pointer is one of the most popular sporting dogs.

I wonder how many of these health problems associated with the setter and English pointers are from bench or show breeding ie AKC etc and how many are from the FDSB which from my understanding is more of a performance based registry more associated with field trialing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jobbershunting

You can't find what you don't look for.

According to the statistics on OFAs website, 8% of pointers tested are displastic. More shockingly though is that in the history of OFA only 1,615 pointers have been tested for hip displaysia even though the pointer is one of the most popular sporting dogs.

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There is not real reason to look because the breeders like Bob Wehle's and Ferrel Miller did what they needed to in order to keep most problems out of their bloodlines. I don't know enough about other breeds to really comment but it sounds to me like people in the past were breeding dogs that maybe shouldn't have been bred leading to the issues experienced today with some of those breeds.

Ahh yes the Ostrich head in the sand method, if I don't look its not there!!!!!

And how does one "properly cull"?
Selective breeding I understand, however "properly culling" sounds like a barbaric PETA inspiring method.
Not to mention it is done with NO scientific insight to support it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jakezilla

English pointer health clearances .... none.

Due to proper breeding combined with proper culling.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by cdnvizsla

Ahh yes the Ostrich head in the sand method, if I don't look its not there!!!!!

And how does one "properly cull"?
Selective breeding I understand, however "properly culling" sounds like a barbaric PETA inspiring method.
Not to mention it is done with NO scientific insight to support it.

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Well said cdnvizsla,

Troll?
So anyone who points out the ignorance and inflammatory nature of a completely unsubstiantied and WRONG assertation is a troll?
If challenging and holding accountable inaccurate, ill advised, and inflammatory statement is wrong, then I am a troll.
If expecting that people on a hunting forum would measure the words they use bearing in mind it is a PUBLIC forum and can be viewed, and in turn be used to place legitimate hunters and breeders in a bad light then I am a troll.
As for the science of it all, I have attached a link for those that care to read, but ostriches need not read as the light may burn their eyes. http://ic.upei.ca/cidd/disorder/hip-dysplasia
http://dogtime.com/dog-breeds/pointer
Mods, if I have offended anyone I apologize, I guess I should be culled

Compassion is not good for any breed, the best breeders I know understand that and produce superior animals.

It is unpleasant and not very PC to mention the term "culling" however it is easy to find evidence of it if you know where to look no matter the breed. People mentioned Robert Wehle, Ferrell Miller etc for the English pointer I have found this little blurb as it concerns the Vizsla
Dr. Pallós, Andrea-The generic health and typical diseases of Hungarian Vizsla breeds
"It is evident from the above description that the breed still retains the advantages attained through centuries of selection, and specimens are sufficiently healthy. However, it is also apparent that certain disorders (e.g. hip joint dysplasia) and unwanted traits (e.g. behavioural problems due to an unstable nervous system) occur at an undesirable frequency. Thus the task of breeders shall be to retain the traits that confer advantages as compared to other breeds. However, we must be unbiased in assessing our dogs and must not shy from culling our breeding stocks, so that the popularity and esteem of the breed may increase throughout the world."
http://www.hungarianvizsla.hu/cikk_generic-health.html

PudelPointers as far as health clearances are concerned is testing for HD but over all there doesn't seem to be many issues.

Quote:

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Seems to me that the retriever folk have done the best job on researching what is essential. I've never seen anything much for setters, hounds or spaniels. I'd like to learn about this more.

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Sharon, One comment I'd like to make, the list of recommended health checks is a tricky marker... Sometimes wrong conclusions can be drawn from it...
For example I was shocked when I looked into toy poodles for a friend - the list is long, the possible issues are many...
We did talk about this in the past here too..

WRT epilepsy, my breed club tracks it and calculates probability and gene carriers within the breed. No test yet (DNA). If a pup gets it (or HD), the club will refund the purchase price (I am talking about the German club here). It's fairly rare tough.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cdnvizsla

Troll?
So anyone who points out the ignorance and inflammatory nature of a completely unsubstiantied and WRONG assertation is a troll?
If challenging and holding accountable inaccurate, ill advised, and inflammatory statement is wrong, then I am a troll.
If expecting that people on a hunting forum would measure the words they use bearing in mind it is a PUBLIC forum and can be viewed, and in turn be used to place legitimate hunters and breeders in a bad light then I am a troll.
As for the science of it all, I have attached a link for those that care to read, but ostriches need not read as the light may burn their eyes. http://ic.upei.ca/cidd/disorder/hip-dysplasia
http://dogtime.com/dog-breeds/pointer
Mods, if I have offended anyone I apologize, I guess I should be culled

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Thanks for posting the link with UPEI University. Their approach seems to be with a wide stroke of the brush when they list potential health issues for specific breeds. Quite a list for most breeds.

As I read through the Labrador section, I couldn't help but notice there is no reference to CNM and EIC. Both have come to the forefront with retrievers in recent years and would appear to be of more importance than the standard hips/elbows etc for many breeders. Certainly very important.

I guess no matter how current a report is.......once published it is now dated.

Compassion may slow down the progression, but BLINDNESS will walk you off a cliff

If you are really interested in discussing this do a little research on FDSB English Pointers, not the links to the show pointers you posted earlier. The pointer breeders I know and deal with have 20/20 vision.

English pointers dominate the highest level of field trials and don't require a laundry list of health clearances what other proof do you need that somewhere in the past the breeders got it right and the current breeders are maintaining the standard?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jakezilla

If you are really interested in discussing this do a little research on FDSB English Pointers, not the links to the show pointers you posted earlier. The pointer breeders I know and deal with have 20/20 vision.

English pointers dominate the highest level of field trials and don't require a laundry list of health clearances what other proof do you need that somewhere in the past the breeders got it right and the current breeders are maintaining the standard?

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Yup, back in the 20's they crossed in a few Setters and Walker Hounds :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tim Tufts

Yup, back in the 20's they crossed in a few Setters and Walker Hounds :)

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I cannot confirm or deny this. ;)

I think something similar may have happened to get the setters we have today. :tongue:

If you cant see the light, I cant help you.
Just because you don't look under the bed doesn't mean there is no monster there, you just didn't look.
As far as Canine figure skating goes, keep on topic dominating a sport has SFA to do with being healthy, and a whole lot more to do with egos, and deals. Never heard of a competitor being shot in any other venue of dog sport.

Dominating in field trials has everything to do with being healthy. Your comments show how little you really know about all of it. Sore losers, people that aren't involved or don't have dogs that can be competitve always try to find ways to discredit the sport. It's a competition, not a test, everyone doesn't get a ribbon. Competition doesn't always bring out the best in people but it is a sure way to find out who the best dog is. The good, consitent dogs rise to the top and beat the "politics" the naysayers and sore losers always refer to.


Call it whatever you want but the English Pointer is the pinnacle of the pointing dog breeds. They out perform all others when it comes to strength, endurance, mental toughness, bird finding ability, etc. English setters are a close second and some of the best bird finders I know are setters. If any other breed could compete with the pointers or setters people would be running them. They have breed restricted field trials for a reason.


Don't worry we are looking under the bed and always watching. Again, do some research on FDSB english pointers and let me know what find.

I know first hand the English Pointer that was being developed in Scandanavian countries for dog sled sprint racing for the last 40 plus years. They are well known for endurance,mental toughness and healthy genetics compared to other working breeds. The fastest sprint dog teams run English Pointers because they are tough period. Many have also crossed these lines into breeding programs all over the world. If I was into the pointing breeds it would definately be an English Pointer but chose the most versatile breed the English Springer Spaniel . :)

Do I have to have one of these to partake in the Pointer games ??? Attachment 27197 :fish::fish:

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Originally Posted by Jakezilla

I cannot confirm or deny this. ;)

I think something similar may have happened to get the setters we have today. :tongue:

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More recently,until the FDSB stopped allowing the registration of "Droppers", theGordon Setter folks were crossing out to put the bird dog back into theirbreed.
My original post was not meant as simply a joke. There has been crossbreeding going on in the bird dog world for as long as field competitions haveexisted. To the benefit of the all the breeds.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tim Tufts

More recently,until the FDSB stopped allowing the registration of "Droppers", theGordon Setter folks were crossing out to put the bird dog back into theirbreed.
My original post was not meant as simply a joke. There has been crossbreeding going on in the bird dog world for as long as field competitions haveexisted. To the benefit of the all the breeds.

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I know it wasn't a joke there are a couple tri-colour pointers around. The recent requirement for DNA on Llewellen Setters is going to be the downfall of that line. Without the ability to bring in some english setter blood they are going to have trouble improving on what they have, their gene pool is pretty shallow.

I have been gone quite awhile but this has been an interesting read so I'm going to make a few comments. First, brucellosis was never anywhere near eradicated. Feral swine carry it. There are millions of them, and we hunt them with dogs. Brucellosis testing will always be extremely important.
Second, hip testing is a source of information, not a breeding criteria. It is a strength or a weakness of an individual, with relatively low heritability I might add. If you only breed "sound" dogs on paper, but ignore every other part of physiology that goes into making a hip joint, you will still have a high degree of displaystic individuals. Check the OFFA database on German shepherds and the incidence of Hd over time. It hasn't changed. The opposite is also true, you can breed a dog with a failing score, that is functionally sound, and aim for functional soundness and get it. You will still experience a low frequency of individuals with bad x-Rays, and an even lower number that have DJD, but less then most might think.

All of that said, in curs and hounds my experience would be that none of the tests are essential if you use your eyes and evaluate each dog as a complete dog, not a collection of health tests. We do OFA, we do PennHip, we do CERF test. It is all information that goes into any breeding decision, and more importantly helps to evaluate the line. The value of the tests to me has little to do with the individual, and a great deal to do with the frequency of incidence in the line. Those tests we perform are evaluating highly polygenic traits, so throwing out an exceptional dog because of a mild, moderate or severe hip test score would be idiocy in the extreme. Selling those puppies would also be irresponsible, so when we take that calculated risk, those puppies all stay home and get sorted through.

The last thought I will leave with is that cull doesn't have to be a taboo word. The essence of it means "remove from the gene pool." There are different ways to accomplish that, and far be it from me to judge other breeders on how or why they effect that once the decision is made that an individual is not to be bred under any circumstances. The word cull carries a very negative connotation, but that is partly of our own doing as dog people.

Fascinating discussion. I look forward to more of it.

Awesome reply and have to agree. I had a breeding program for almost 20 years with a particular working line of Siberian Husky. Hips and elbows were never an issue because the breeding program had already focused on that for the last 40 years when I took the line over. Each litter of pups would be evaluated using a series of measurements and documented to meet a specific criteria. If they didn't meet the criteria at the seven week to eight week stage they were not included in any future breeding program. They were culled from a breeding program not destroyed. If I introduced a bloodline that had a history of eye issues then yes eyes would have to be cleared if used in a breeding program. The working lines had no hip and elbow issues and their was no need to do these clearances.

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Originally Posted by yellow dog

but chose the most versatile breed the English Springer Spaniel

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That's an awful large claim to stake on a forum such as this.

:) Yup

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yellow dog

Awesome reply and have to agree. I had a breeding program for almost 20 years with a particular working line of Siberian Husky. Hips and elbows were never an issue because the breeding program had already focused on that for the last 40 years when I took the line over. Each litter of pups would be evaluated using a series of measurements and documented to meet a specific criteria. If they didn't meet the criteria at the seven week to eight week stage they were not included in any future breeding program. They were culled from a breeding program not destroyed. If I introduced a bloodline that had a history of eye issues then yes eyes would have to be cleared if used in a breeding program. The working lines had no hip and elbow issues and their was no need to do these clearances.

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What measurements?
What criteria?
Specific to the breed or generic?

I was under the impression that hip testing is not valid unless the dog is 24 months of age or older at time of testing.... According the the OFA anyways....

You're right Cass. You can see the dysplasia as young as 4 months but certification happens only at 2+ years.

http://bakerinstitute.vet.cornell.ed...ge.php?id=1104

PennHip can be done much younger, but it isn't a subjective pass or fail. It measures laxity of the joint, which doesn't change much with age.

So Yellow Dog.......I asked 3 questions from your previous post. You've obviously chosen not to respond. I asked those questions to see if indeed you had some sense of measurements that can be made at such a young age(7-8 weeks) to help in making predictions about the level if any of dysplasia. You reference a criteria yet you fail to quote what that might be.

Here's a quote from Sharon's article:
"The disease is not readily observable in very young dogs. Joints of newborn pups – even those destined to develop hip dysplasia – seem to be structurally and functionally sound. Further, they do not show the characteristic abnormalities revealed"

I also discussed this with my Vet yesterday......would you really like to know his answer about trying to decide at 7 weeks if any hip issues are likely???????

Its amazing what people will post isn't it.....................

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sharon

You're right Cass. You can see the dysplasia as young as 4 months but certification happens only at 2+ years.

http://bakerinstitute.vet.cornell.ed...ge.php?id=1104

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cass

I was under the impression that hip testing is not valid unless the dog is 24 months of age or older at time of testing.... According the the OFA anyways....

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And word is, you don't breed (females especially) dogs any earlier than 2, after they have their health clearances and have matured enough, and been titled.

..............................

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yellow dog

Excuse me ! I don't have the luxury of sitting around all day I work full time. I also don't care about your questions and I don't answer to you so get off your fricken high horse. And yes it is amazing how arrogant you really are ........... I would never pass valuable information based on my experience to you anyway. I typically PM members that appreciate it. Get over yourself.

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Well, well , Well......I sit around all day, not likely, hunted most of today.......Thank You. You don't have to answer to me , no one ever suggested that. You are accountable for some of your statements and quite frankly you are way off course which is why I asked for you to substantiate your comments. Misleading people the way you do can be viewed as unacceptable and to be honest that is a the way others see it too.

I really don't need any of your help but thanks for the rudeness in your comments....it serves you well!

I suggest you step up, be accountable for your comments and be prepared to be questioned when myself and others see how far off base you are. My heavens, do we really want people thinking they can evaluate the quality of hips at 7-8 weeks.....think about your statements...you are so far off base...totally inaccurate. Does that make me arrogant because I question the silliness in your comments.....I think not. When confronted you resort to rudeness like the above post.

I would suggest you take your own advice, that is if you believe in it at all.

Time to put your big boy pants on and Grow up at least in your approach with comments.

Cheers

.....................

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Originally Posted by yellow dog

Again you have twisted it to your liking and I will not answer any of your questions. I have already PM a forum member that was interested in my previous comment to expand on. I would have been more than willing to expand on my comment with background information. But you made it clear in your post how childish you really are when I didn't respond to you right away because i was very busy. You may speak on behalf of a few forum members and that's fine by me, pat yourself on the back. Like I said I share my experience with others on this forum when they ask me by PM. Remember you were the one that approached me in the most arrogant manner because i didn't respond back to you fast enough. It's really a hard pill to swallow taking advice from you. Any time you want to meet face to face over a coffee and chat let me know.

Prost

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Jeepers, didn't think it was childish to ask why you hadn't responded. We are all busy...that certainly is not the issue or problem....no one is making it that.

I asked you for measurements and criteria for one reason....it is ludicrous to suggest hip analysis at that age. If you had some information then by all means state your case for all others to see but no you refused and chalked it up to me asking.....what a pity!

By the way I could care less if you find it difficult to take any advice given.....then by all means don't accept any, feel free to limit yourself any which way you feel comfortable in. Although you may disagree, I would see all who participate here are part of the dog breathern....we should be helping each other. Helping also means challenging silly statements or 'old wives tales' if they could potentially result in negative training or negative health advice.

What value for me in having a coffee....I did invite you out to some field trials to broaden your horizons.....same deal.

I think far better to offer up good sound experiential advice to help people with problems they face with their dogs. Be clear though YD that we all have to validate /explain/rationalize our comments otherwise it's just another bunch of internet BS that helps no one.

Hope that nice young springer you have is getting his appetite full of birds for you, I know I have a very tired young lad at my feet from today's outing.

Cheers

Well since your such a nice guy all of a sudden and we are all dog breathren I will give you some info to Google.. Major players in performance dogs (sled dogs). Dr. Roland Lombard and Dr. Charles Belford. SEPP Evaluation of Performance Siberian Husky's. I had the humbling experience to take part many years ago in collecting data during an evaluation. Sled dog brethren were way ahead of their time especially the two doctors mentioned above who were vets and top racers and creators of this program. It may lead to measurements, scores, hip dysplaysia , correct movement etc. It was mainly shared with Siberian breeders, racers to improve the overall structure of the breed for its future in the racing sport.

Prost

Always was a nice guy YD, just not always accepting of certain positions without background or rationale. Thanks for the reference and information about the SEPP evaluation. I did take a quick look at their work and developments. I found the 'toes' out concept interesting and tried to put that kind of thinking into a comparison of confirmation for working retrievers/pointers etc. I would tend to think this was specific to their dogs and use. You would have more experience here. How does their work compare to modern day.

I really do believe dog folks should stick together, if I didn't I certainly would not serve in the capacities I have in the dog world...it's not like we get paid for our efforts.

Hmmmm
I think that as long as it follows the forum rules , folks should be able to give dog advice / answer questions here as they see fit.
Some advice given will be wrong. As long as the advice isn't going to harm a dog ( like vet advice from a non vet), they should be able to say what they believe.
I try not to confront wrong advice, but simply post what I believe to be good advice. Sometimes I'm wrong .
It's the reader's job to decide what advice is helpful to them ..... a person seeking advice should always beware on any forum.

Sorry was away hunting with my dogs, where we shoot the birds, and rabbits they have pointed and then oddly enough they retrieve them. A novel concept I know.
You can dominate without being healthy, dysplaxia shows up later in life when the animals are not in top physical condition, when muscles weaken and are not enough to hold joints together. I have hunted over several dogs with hips that were diagnosed as poor or dysplastic and you would never know it as a younger dog. 3 of them were VC's so you don't have to be healthy to dominate.

English Springer Spaniels typically are checked for: hip dysplasia, retinal dysplasia, brucellosis, and PFK (which is very rare now). Overall years of testing and selective breeding by responsible breeders in the field trial community have greatly reduced the incidence of these conditions in field bred ESS's. As was mentioned earlier when you buy a pup from a reputable breeder, with all breeding stock properly health checked and with champion lineage, you are really getting what you pay for.

Some interesting comments here about OFA vs Pennhip

OFA: No better than a marketing tool for breeders?

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At that thread I asked for input on questions to interview prospective veterinarians before I purchase a puppy. I also said I was in the process of putting together a “list of negative things” regarding breeders. For instance, if they haven’t undertaken OFA for hips and elbows for their sire and dam, then I would outright automatically reject that breeder.

Both vets I interviewed yesterday told me that PennHIP was far superior to OFA certification, and, frankly, should be the only one rising to the level to reject outright prospective breeders. One of them said OFA has grown into a money-hungry non-profit that builds certification upon certification that only serves to distinguish breeders in the eyes of buyers in an artificial way. I searched the Internet and found similar commentary, especially when comparing PennHIP to OFA.

Here, perhaps the forum's focus will be to attack the credibility of the vets', whom, by the way I liked, and everything about their clinics. Instead, I would like to hear arguments for or against about what one of the vets said, "If all you have to go on for hips and elbows is OFA, then you really haven't got much." Also, the other said, "OFA and all of its certifications are no-better than a marketing tool for breeders."

I could sure use your guidance. I'd also really like to hear from anyone out there in forum-land who has his or her dogs certified under PennHIP.http://rottweiler.net/forums/images/...s/confused.gif

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I could counter that these vets are certified by Pennhip (they have to have training and be certified by Pennhip to do Pennhip while OFA does not require special training (money given to OFA)) So they might be pushing Pennhip as they can have a higher profit margin. Pennhip requires sedatation where OFA does not require it.

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http://www.rottweiler.net/forums/bre...-breeders.html

We do both OFA and PennHIP. They are testing different things, OFA is a subjective evaluation of the morphology of the ball and socket and how well the hip is seated. PennHIP measures laxity in the joint, so as the legs are manipulated how much does the ball travel out of the socket of the joint. Neither predicts with absolute certainty whether an individual will develop hip dysplasia or not, they only show risk factors and probabilities for developing the disease later.