Saw this Federal ad for a new sabot-less bullet. Neat idea, worth buying a pack to see how it performs.
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Saw this Federal ad for a new sabot-less bullet. Neat idea, worth buying a pack to see how it performs.
Looks like something worth trying for sure. Kind of an added take on the powerbelts which don't do so well. Only downside I see is that like all Barnes, Hornady style bullets they will not dump most or all of the energy inside the animal.
Expensive but next year I may buy them just sighting in my ml. They look awesome and easy to load and very accurate. Cabelas in canada has them. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BrvD3I1hygg
I had settled on TC shockwave 250 and Hornady 250 SST's. Up to last year, I was using them with 80 grains of BH209. This year I upped it to 100 grains with a new gun. The difference in the exit wounds was quite substantial and surprised me. I will have to try them to see if they hit harder and keep the same grouping for the long shots.
I see Randy Wakeman has provided some specs on the new bullet...
from: http://www.chuckhawks.com/federal_tr...mz_bullet.htmlQuote:
Federal has not yet provided a ballistic coefficient for their new bullet, but Federal does claim 2198 fps muzzle velocity with 120 grains by volume of Blackhorn 209 from a 24 inch test barrel. Based on the 1358 fps retained velocity at 200 yards published by Federal with this load, the 200 yard B.C. is .167. Federal also publishes 1794 fps with two T7 pellets, with a 200 yard velocity of 1125. This also equates to a 200 yard B.C. of .167
Although being .50 caliber with fairly light for caliber weight prevents it from having a high ballistic coefficient, it is slightly better than a .452 diameter, 250 grain Hornady XTP. If you remove the base and polymer ring from this bullet assembly, you have essentially a 250 grain bullet. Note the 275 grain Trophy Copper slug used in Federal's 20 gauge saboted round has a published B.C. of .171. As a shooting B.C. varies quite a bit in concert with ambient conditions, using a static B.C. of .167 should be close enough for starting purposes.
Federal has done a good job here. If you're using Blackhorn 209 with this new Federal bullet, you'll never lick a patch again. You can leave all your cotton patches, swabbing solvents, Bore Butter, short starters, and other assorted oddities of inconvenience at home.
edit add: he also has posted a Video doing some shooting...looks like a winner:
Sorry pboruna..I thought your link was to the Cabela's site :ashamed:
Just went and looked at those bad boys, sure looks like they'll get the job done.....
This bullet appears to be the future for muzzle loading if its track record holds up.
I do like the fact it adjusts to bore size. It’s also cheaper than the 250TEZ from Barnes.
Not carrying a separate sabot is a bonus.
Curious as how it will hold-up to smokeless pressures? Even though I have a large supply of shooting components already on hand this is an itch I might have to scratch in the near future.
Ed
Same here. Going to buy a pack!
In regards to a thread you posted earlier Ed, I wonder if the ease of loading this bullet will provide enough back pressure to help get ignition/consistent for a burn in an SML ?Quote:
Originally Posted by ET1
MikePal
Good question.
Offhand I don’t see why not because of the mechanical diameter expansion property to seal the bore. In essence it would basically duplicate what a bullet does when it obturates.
With a sabot the lower cup actually seals the bore when it’s flared from pressure. I would enjoy comparing a 250gr load with a sabot as it is slightly over 260grs when you include sabot weight to the new Federal 270gr bullet. Don’t know how much significant difference would exist with 10gr load difference between the two other than actual flight when the sabot is discarded.
Thinking about the unknowns has intensified this itch a little more.
Ed
Interesting.....might have to give these a try.
Does anyone know where these can be purchased in the Kingston area?
you can buy online http://www.cabelas.ca/product/69934/...ets-50-caliber
Tried 270gr Federal premium with 90, 100 and 110 T7, remington primers, CVA Accura V2, 200 yard range yesterday. Just prefer to do not exceed 110gr of T7 since this is 126.5 equivalent of Pyrodex. It's good, 1 3/4" group of 3 shoots on 200 yard. I was running two dry patches after every shot and cleaned breach plug hole. Comparing to Hornady SST 250gr, SST gives same or slightly better accuracy, as well as a bit better ballistic coefficient, Federal is less flatten due to the weight I guess.
So, I'm still not sure how it would work with dirty bore.Will try next time
But since I clean bore afer every shot, SST is slightly better choice to me.
How'bout some 350 grain bullet?
http://www.gundigest.com/article/fed...eloader-bulletQuote:
Federal has released a lead muzzleloader bullet, which has the potential to really help in-line muzzleloaders reach out. In particular, the .50-caliber bullet has the weight — 350 grains — and ballistic coefficient — .209 — to more than go the distance. The projectile also looks to provide devastating terminal ballistics with impressive expansion aided by its polymer tip.
The bullet is equipped with Federal’s B.O.R. Lock MZ System, an innovation that helps the projectile reach its full potential. The system is a polymer cup with a fiberglass base that sits about halfway down the base of the bullet upon loading. After firing, the cup moves forward on the bullet on to obturating ramps, which expands it, creating the gas seal and bearing surface of the projectile.
Federal boasts the system creates a true 200-yard muzzleloader due to its superior internal ballistics. As an added bonus, the company points out the fiberglass base cleans the bore upon loading.
While Federal did not place a MSRP on the new lead muzzleloader bullets, a number of online retailers are presently selling 15 packs in the $20 range.
I sure wish we could get them at that price.
The review on them say there not worth it , no accuracy.
The reviews are on the Cabela listing.
Not for me.
LOL thats funny.They are deadly accurate.Check out randy wakemans video.Quote:
Originally Posted by JUDGE
Second on that. I do not have issues with accuracy.Those bullets are close to Hornady SST 250gr, which I like best. Ballistic coefficient is slightly different than my Hornady 250gr, but this is understood since those bullets have different shape and weight.Quote:
Originally Posted by bcxextreme
Does Randy Fakeman still do mainly clown appearances at childrens parties? SERIOUSLY. That's what he did for quite a while. Spokesman for savage ML10's till savage told him to shut up. A good SST or scorpion will give the BC which by the way is elevated very slighly by a point on a bullet. As for load drag just use crush rib sabots.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
http://www.randywakeman.com/20_Gauge...s_Compared.htm
http://randywakemanmagic.com/
As for Randy's input I'll take a pass. And the bullet won't do a thing you can't already. I just smacked a 190 field dressed buck with 85 grs of BH209 under an orig 300 XTP in crush rib sabot looking at me at 120. It ripped a gouge all the way down his chin and blew a hole out the back of his brain stem the size of a tennis ball. Not a movement, run or quiver. That'll do
Sounds more like the results of good shot placement than bullet performance...Quote:
Originally Posted by standup
Which is part of bullet (In this case bullet/sabots) performance. A large portion of which is pinpoint accuracy is it not? Lets be honest when a system is accurate enough to put a hole in a brain stem a darning needle hole will do. I have sometimes stood the ground of the big bang, big bore etc etc while others were saying performance was basically had once the bullet went exactly where it was placed. In this case I'd say placement, and actually Mike. I don't know if my 300 weath woulda left much more damageQuote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
I think any lead .45 (ML) bullet leaves a devastating trail of damage, especially when the shot hits the upper spine/neck. But your right that the combo of sabot/bullet leads to the accuracy needed to make a well placed shot. Package deal.Quote:
Originally Posted by standup
I shoot 4 different ML bullets and have used a variety of Black powders and Substitutes and all give me great accuracy with some tweaking and range time...so when it comes to a devastating shot like you describe...I lean more to shooter's performance than to bullet performance.
Ah you're makin me blush
I know a fellow that does "Clown Appearances " for kids, and some "magic tricks " because he enjoys it , does this mean he is not a knowledgeable man in his chosen field of work as a " chemical engineer " ?Quote:
Originally Posted by standup
Not at all. Prob is when Randy Fakeman takes exception with every word out of Toby Bridge's mouth. Ya Toby a guy who does ONLY GUNS. You'll forgive me if I go for advice to a surgeon and not a surgeon/shoe salesman, and. When the surgeon/shoe salesman don't agree with the surgeon/surgeon many times my desire to subscribe to any of his notions wanes considerably. In short I've been on to many of Mr Fakeman's rides. Here's just one. First a muzzle loader gets too much umph from a 209 so You must get special breech plugs to take a 25ACP case with a small pistol primer. Next thing out of his mouth he's writing about how we need 209's hotter than WW makes. All over the place. Savage was right to ignore and down play any connection to him. I would suggest if you don't want to find yourself chasing your tale you follow suit
Wasn't that over time across different powders Standup; ...it was common knowledge that originally a standard 209 primer was to much for a T7 load. So they made 'weaker' primers....problem solved. Then they came out with BH209 and the 'weak' primers weren't able to ignite it, so they had to go back to the original shotgun 209 primers ?Quote:
Originally Posted by standup
Nope, they came to modified breech plug.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
This is regular one http://cdn1.cheaperthandirt.com/ctd_...-CVA1611BH.jpg
This is BH 209 one https://www.muzzle-loaders.com/media...ac1611_1_3.jpg.
When I was on BH 209, I was playing with 209 primers such as green remington(weaker ones), federal, CCI, winchester. I have both breach plugs for my accra, BH modified and regular. Regular plug with strongest winchester primer didn't come close to remington primer and modified plug. Best results I had with:
1. T7, green weak remington primer, regular plug;
2. BH 209, CCI primer and modified breach plug.
I found those combinations most consistent.
This is true, and personally I would subscribe to that. He flipped and flopped while still on the T7 . When speaking to the same powder it's one way or da udder. Like I said, he did that with savage ML's and countless other topics. I'm sure it's fine and even fun when in a clown act, but. Not so much in a guns and ammo write upQuote:
Originally Posted by MikePal
Like I said. I just throw in the BH, a crush rib on an XTP. Throw er on the buffalo sticks at 75 and put em in one hole. I guess I could fool with that given how boring it is or NOTQuote:
Originally Posted by isartw
Attachment 31549
You mean the Toby that apparently tried to play some tricks of his own with savage??Quote:
Originally Posted by standup
Not that same guy....
Couldn't be....
They are all salesmen. Take what they say with a grain of salt because they all have something to gain from you reading their articles.
ahhh Toby, arguable the man who bought smokeless ML manufacturing to an end..a corporate lawyers nightmare :)
I like Randy, as I do Hickok45...guys who take stuff out on the range and shot it. Never take their word as gospel, just enjoy their opinions....the way you should take any information, filter it for the BS.
Standup..chasing your tail is not always a bad thing, gives you more range time :)
I remember something about a letter he wrote as well.
As for chasing tails - Yup we've all done that
Going to kick this thread up to ask 2 questions
1. After a year or two - what are people's impressions of the performance of this bullet (who have tried it out - range or hunting).
2. Does anyone know a place around SW Ontario/GTA where you can buy them currently?
Cheers
Federal told us they were not smokeless compatible but when pressed could not tell me why.
I tried them. Accuracy was just ok. They could not tolerate the pressure in our 10ml's very well.
Friend of mine really likes them over T7 in his ML as accuracy is exceptional.
Thanks.. I am thinking of trying them in a CVA Wolf behind 2 pellets of IMR white hots. Just trying to find a source to locate some to try.
I went to Pennsylvania last Jan for their special flintlock deer season. One of the gang started using them in his 50 cal flintlock....he said they are accurate and have a good punch. I bought some and to try in my percussion and flintlock.